I can't recall anyone blaming simple bad luck for our ills. Who said that?
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I can't recall anyone blaming simple bad luck for our ills. Who said that?
Nah, Obamamidele? no, couldn't be: Did you not hear? He was the only one hoofing the ball in Faro. The only one. It totally undermines SK's gameplan and ridiculous reasoning that he's heralding a new type of play. I actually went to the trouble of recording how bad he was at playing football in the second half in Faro (between the second half and the 74th minute):Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
- 48: successful pass to Doc;
- 50: headed clearance;
- 52: swivel on the ball and pass to Coleman
- 53: interception & pass inside to Cullen;
- 54 block on CR7 after dribbling;
- 56 interception (pen appeal), pass up flank to Idah blocked for throw.
- 63: Long ball up line after interception- possession lost.
- 68: took pass, 40yd pass to Idah's feet, possession retained.
That's probably better than just making sweeping statements as some others are wont to do with no evidence to back it up. probably.
[QUOTE]I see also that Bazunu was successful with 10 long balls. There were some he played onto Doherty's foot or chest that were absolutely awesome. There are not many keepers who could execute those passes. Maybe it's the green tinted glasses of mine but if I were the Man City loan manager or goalkeeping coach I'd be very, very happy watching that game. [QUOTE]
And Doherty deserves immense credit. and he doesn't get enough credit for a lot of the work he does with the ball at his feet. I would say that getting space in tight spaces, and picking out subtle forward passes, he's certainly in our top 3, if not the best. It seems to go very unnoticed.
I can't advise anyone enough to get down and watch a national underage league match, particularly if you live in Dublin (or the North West - the two standout areas for the past few years). Irish schoolboy children are showing amazing levels of skill and technical ability, and have been doing so for a number of years. They don't know any other way to play.Quote:
Given how much we have struggled in recent years with young Irish talent coming through (there have been some very sparse years since the Class of 92 born lads), it's amazing to see technically brilliant players like Bazunu, Omobamidele and even Parrott coming through. Collins and O'Shea are another pair of lovely ballers.
Yes, like in Belgrade, Serbia had another gear in them. We didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trequartista20
If our equaliser was 20 minutes earlier, Serbia would probably have found another goal.
Good to see Zefi going to the continent instead of the English pyramid.Quote:
I can't advise anyone enough to get down and watch a national underage league match, particularly if you live in Dublin (or the North West - the two standout areas for the past few years). Irish schoolboy children are showing amazing levels of skill and technical ability, and have been doing so for a number of years. They don't know any other way to play.
I'd normally agree with that, but they looked fairly rattled and this is the first time in Kenny's reign and bar McCarthy team against Denmark where we equalised and then went for it. Perhaps as far back as Austria home before that. Circumstances dictate things and we were desperate for a win yesterday to restore a semblance of balance, but we still did look more like scoring than they did in those last 8-10 minsQuote:
Originally Posted by brine3
I'm aware of course given or tempo spurts we'd have died down after 5 or so mins and they'd get a handle on the game but there wasn't that much time left for it to happen last night but as you say with 20-25 mins it most likely would have been a different story
Portsmouth (Man city academy) <10 caps; Liverpool sub <10 caps; Bohs 0 caps;Quote:
Originally Posted by texidub
Spurs sub; Norwich sub <10 caps; Brighton; Sheff United; Wigan (stoke sub);
Anderlecht <10 caps; St Mirren<10 caps; Newcastle sub;
Preston <20 caps;
Norwich sub <15 caps;
Subs: West Brom sub (Brighton reserves) <15 caps; West Brom; Sheff United (Villa sub); Wycome Sub <20 caps; Cardiff sub <15 caps.
31 goals in the entire squad.
1 tournament qualification in a generation.
Expectations have met reality.
yeah but it wasn't, and they didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
thanks for your insightQuote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
you're welcome. Imagine needing a stroke of luck to get a result against a much better team. The cheek of us really.
Spain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Insidetherock
No, wait. Brazil?
No, wait: Germany?
OTB - I've not much grá for them at the best of times, last night said that the discussion on Kenny has become Trumpian, or Brexit-like, where the middle ground is portrayed as being polarising.
And in continuing that fashion....
How many permanent Irish managers have had their first friendly match after 11 games?Quote:
Originally Posted by samhaydenjr
If you object to that question (i.e the Nations league is not competitive), then how many permanent Irish managers have been appointed where their first match is a competitive play-off for a place in a finals we're hosting?
How many managers have had to face our own biggest and hated rivals (in our eyes) in their own ground when the respective standing of both sides has never been greater, and when we were not obliged to do so?
Eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
You've skipped 2019-2020, the pre SK period, where JH was quite underwhelming, along with others. By your logic, Josh Cullen would not have been getting a look in and becoming a lock for the side.
Hmm, I don't follow what you are saying.
I'm just pointing out that one of the things Jeff Hendrick has going against him is how good he used to be. He set the bar high for himself. Others that never achieved such heights never have to worry about being held up to the same standard.
The squad in a months time will be interesting. Players like Kilkenny in the 21s will have had another month potentially starting in the championship, the lads who have take up loan deals will hopefully be playing regularly (Coventry, Hourihane, Molumby), Hendrick will have a chance to get back in the Newcastle team, Robbie Brady and Jack Byrne might have clubs, Knight might be fit again and that's just the midfield.
Hopefully there's a bit more luck with fitness and covid issues and there's some serious choices to be made around selecting players that are playing and in form over other who have been in squads but are not getting games. I think Coventry is the one with the biggest chance to jump up into the team. He had an impressive pre-season, he's another good holding midfielder and he's capable of getting a goal or two.
It would be great to see Idah getting more game time (and hopefully a goal or two), and Omobamidele getting into that Norwich starting lineup.
Stevens will hopefully be fit again and fresh adding to the options on the left that are thin on the ground.
Robinson will hopefully be fit and continue his scoring form. Connolly might even sort himself out and be playing for Brighton. Parrot will have more games and goals under his belt all going well too.
I do think a win is still badly needed for the management and the players. Hopefully that comes in Azerbaijan (I think playing them away will actually suit us a bit better anyway).
Again it's interpretation. If I've made that accusation about him (I think it's unlikely I'd use those words, but not impossible) then it's the context of him not showing up in a technical sense. I'd hope it's been noted here, that I've constantly said that in a game where we are likely to be the weaker team, or less dominant team, and want to press aggressively, Jeff is the best player for that right of a midfield 3 position. His workrate and stamina levels are off the charts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trequartista20
This is it, every word of that is on the money.Quote:
I think the big frustration with Hendrick is the suspicion that he has more ability and more to offer than he sometimes shows. And we have seen glimpses of great quality from him.
Just on Hendrick, it looked to me like he'd had it drilled into him that he's the senior player out there now, the one who needed to take responsibility. And he did that.
When was the England game organised ? Was it during Kenny's reign? I've always thought it was but the way you're talking sounds like it was forced upon him gun to head like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingdom
True enough. And as mentioned previously, a 1-1 home draw with Serbia in a WCQ is a typical result for Ireland no matter the manager or the squad, so for all the change we're seeing, in some ways things remain the same. It's a conundrum, but great entertainment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingdom
Hopeffully Time will tell. Didn't do alan mahon a huge amount of favours or conor mccormack or o connor who both went to trieste. England are producing wonderful technical players Foden, sancho , Elliott , shoreteire , musiala etc through their academies .Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
There's a snobbery against English football here. Probably because it's what your average "barstooler" watches.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
Not true at all. Most LOI fans are not "LOI only". Almost all Bohs fans (and fans of other LOI clubs) that i know support an English team too. As a second team mostly, obviously. There may be a snobbery from time to time towards "barstoolers" but not towards English football.Quote:
Originally Posted by boovidge
He said here ? Not Loi :confused:
I disagree with this take. There is a marked difference between the MON/MickMack trademarks of long balls pumped into the box and into the wide channels from our CBs and FBs which often resulted in a cross or a set piece in the attacking third (but more often resulted in the ball being turned over) versus what i think, objectively, we are seeing under Kenny which is recycled ball with a high degree of possession that works the ball into wide positions resulting in crosses or set pieces in the attacking third.Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
The snobbery I find is usually directed at the league of Ireland by the EPL supporting faction. I don’t support an English team I’m quite happy to say. Used to “support” Man City when I was a kid (70’s) until I came to realise gradually that they have absolutely nothing to do with me. Best things I ever did was start to go to Richmond Park regularly. I’m probably biased towards Kenny because of his background (conversely I’m sure that many anti Kenny people are also of that view because of his background) and I don’t mind admitting it. I think there are extenuating circumstances to his poor record so far, and I also think there are signs that things can come right for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Having said all that though, if he fails to beat Luxembourg and Azerbaijan again I would say he’s a goner.
Yep, all fair. I think my saying "almost all" above could be overstated and that there are a number of fans who only support an Irish team. I don't know many of those who would be vehemently anti-English football though.Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD
Re: Kenny. Yep, the results have to come before the end of the campaign. I said yesterday that 6 would be the bare minimum to see him kept on and preferably 8. One down...
Yeah just to clarify I wasn't talking about LOI fans in general or saying people on here are "anti-English". There's just the occasional post saying something like "I hope x goes to the Eredivisie instead of the Premier League. They play real technical football over there".Quote:
Originally Posted by boovidge
For me the key thing is what kind of good quality game time they'll get at the right time rather than the style of football these days, though I think lower down the English structures the style reservations are more valid. Off the top of my head not too many Irish have come out of the top tier academies since the clubs started investing so heavily in them so although they may get a good technical grounding, their development options may be more limited. I guess that'll apply to Zefi at Inter too though.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
Oh, come off it; the moral victory (defeat) against Portugal, where we scored a goal from a set-piece, and set about desperately attempting to cling on for the remainder of a match where Portugal enjoyed no less than 73% of possession, was as typical an Irish performance as you can possibly get! If you lack the objectivity to be able to recognise this, well, then I don't know what to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Serbia was the same; we were 'battered', as Kerr rightly described it, for the entire match - utterly outplayed - and were wholly dependent on a near wonder-display from our teenage goalkeeper and some extraordinarily profligate finishing from the Serbs for the score not to reflect this, as 18 shots rained down on our goal. If Serbia had been 4 or 5 goals to the good by the time we scored from a ludicrously fortuitous and quite undeserved own goal - again from a set-piece (not Irish at all!) We would have had absolutely no cause for complaint.
There is no doubt whatever that these were prototypical Irish performances of the sort we've seen time and time again down the years under various Irish managers.
And if we really are serious about instigating real and lasting change this involves us being fully honest about where we are - let's not try to kid outselves.
I think there is a difference in fairness in that under Mick/MON, we were far too quick to give the ball away and launch an aimless hoof. We seem to be able to retain possession slightly better, and have more of an idea what to do when on the ball. We're not very good at actually making that idea happen, mind, and I agree Portugal/Serbia were fairly typical Irish moral victories.
Would agree with this. We're definitely attempting to pass the ball more, just witness how many times Bazunu tried to pick out a man with a short pass rather than launching it up towards a target man. As for attempting to cling on to the lead against Portugal, I would say it was more a case of them forcing us back, what with them having better footballers. We actually played some nice stuff getting forward in Portugal. Same with Serbia. Teams like these are ahead of us, so they will have more possession. That's being fully honest about where we are. Thing is, if we don't try to adjust our playing style now we will continue to fall further behind. None of this is to excuse the games against Luxembourg and Azerbaijan btw, which were poor.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
While some will point to low possession stats in these matches and say nothing has changed, that’s not the whole story.
Under Kenny’s style, by playing short passes near our goal, we draw the opposing team’s high press.
When we execute the next move properly and get the ball up field, it means we face fewer defensive players than we normally would.
The challenge is that the players we have right now may not be good enough to play this system in its purest form. That may come with time as some of these players mature and grow but Kenny may not be around for that depending on how things go.
This is definitely the plan, and there's logic to it. Rather than a 50-50 from a kick-out, you keep possession of the ball and ideally get into midfield with the opposition attack behind rather than in front of you.Quote:
Originally Posted by irishfan86
So far though, off the top of my head, it cost us a penalty in Portugal and an early chance at home to Serbia, and we seem just as likely to end up being closed down and either hoofing it away or worse, losing possession in our own final third, as we are to execute it properly.
We do but bazunu was drawing in and then playing powerful direct passes taking out the 1/2/3 front opposition players. I'm wondering now if that's a tactic that they've started to work on as it was never there before - I'm inclined to think it's bazunu acting on instinct and having the required ability to execute that pass. And I'm ok with that if its being used that way. But as you say it doesn't come with a free pass there are dangers especially as most players still can't easily turn their way out of losing possessionQuote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
You're right about the risk involved, its definitely not percentage football. If we dont try it though, we'll never improve.
Yeah, we do seem to get caught in possession 30 yards out far more often than we should do. Portugal did a couple of times early on, as did a couple of the weaker sides we played early in the year.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
This is where the need for good midfielders who are comfortable on the ball comes in. Its the one area that could make a huge difference to the team. There was one incident the other night that I liked where Molumby got the ball facing his own goal and turned with the ball to start off an attack (according to the commentators Omobamidele gave him the call to turn) too often in the past that ball just goes straight back to the defender. In the long term I honestly think this will bear fruit. I'd like to see SK be around to reap the benefits, but its the way to go regardless. We can do that mixed with the up and at em "put under presshah" game.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I watched the Rovers under 17 team a lot when Bazunu was in for them and that's exactly how they played out. They had two excellent wingbacks and if the short wasn't on or wasn't working he'd ping it to them pushing into the midfield. It's a great option, especially if you can draw 3 or 4 opponents into the press first and then just take them out of the game. His coach from that Rovers team is also on the Ireland staff now too, so that might be connected.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
The problem with that line of reasoning is that we move the ball far too slowly for that approach to really be successful.Quote:
Originally Posted by irishfan86
Rather than fast, sharp, snappy possession football of the sort that would quickly advance us up the pitch, what we see is the ball being knocked around at the back, in slow, ponderous and uncertain fashion, and, when the ball is eventually played into midfield, all of our players are, inevitably, tightly marked, so, under pressure, the ball has to be played back, either to a defender or the goalkeeper, again, and it's either rinse and repeat or the goalkeeper, under pressure, having to knock it long anyway.
This kind of slow, predictable football is incredibly easy to play against, and just invites pressure and ends up with the concession of goalscoring opportunities.
Serbia, when their goalkeeper had possession, for example, had their outer centre-halves splitting very wide into fullback positions, and sometimes making forward runs, their wingbacks were pushed very far forwards, almost inline with their two (!) strikers - as we used to see with Doherty
to great effect at Wolves - and their deepest lying midfielder, a real deep-lying playmaker of the sort we seem to lack, (Kilkenny?) was comfortable coming deep and collecting the ball or receiving the ball in a slightly more advanced midfield position. And they also played with a number 10 who played between the lines but who also was prepared to receive the ball in deeper positions.
That's a much more difficult set-up to play against.
Kenny is certainly hampered by our severe lack of attacking options. With this in mind, I do think we need to be playing two up top, even if one player (Parrott?) is slightly more withdrawn. But I do think Idah performed manfully over the three matches - and I do recognise he's not at all the finished article yet.
Straw-clutching though it may be, Scully (lively and a smart finisher with 7 goals this season) and Szmodics, who can play across the forward line, and, crucially in the 10 role, may be useful options to come in, and McGrath may prove a useful option for the 10 role that we really need to introduce and fill in order to better link midfield and attack. Although Dunphy's recent promotion of McGrath as the latest cause celebre does leave me rather cold.
There was one moment where Molumby turned and pivoted with the ball stuck to his feet and suddenly the whole pitch opened up, perfectly illustrating how playing it short from the back can have real benefits. A few moments later he tried the same thing further up the pitch but his technique let him down really badly (itself very worrying) and the whole pitch opened up for Serbia!
Some games I watched my son playing for his school in Spain were very telling. Literally every team they played had a Cullen-like deep lying midfielder who was always the go to guy from the back. Receive, pivot, distribute...every single time. Each team had a player good enough to receive the ball under any kind of pressure. In my opinion Darron Gibson was great at receiving the ball in tight situations. It's why I still had a thing for picking Gibson even when his career was in decline. Keane was a master at it.
Having such a player makes playing cohesive football so much easier. Having an advanced playmaker, much like what Dunphy thinks he sees in McGrath (let's hope he's right) would be an amazing thing to have too. Growing up there was always one guy you could trust to give the ball to. He'd usually always be looking for it too. It's why I like Cullen so much even if he's no world beater. He's a midfielder just doing "midfieldery things", as CTP puts it.
That's why it has surprised me that Kenny took so long to see that the likes of Cullen were important to how he wants us to play. I think he believed Hourihane could do it but he didn't do it very well. It was telling that when he went back out on loan last season he had a purple patch, playing much further forward.
@TQ20, I actually think Serbia were an utter delight to watch from the very first minute. Beautifully balanced team. Technically strong but nothing flash. Lots of wall passes that kept the ball moving. I loved how they set up as a unit in our half, sensing they were on top and smothering us with even their CBs well into our half. Really good in-game collective intelligence. I think they're one of the more impressive sides to have visited Dublin in recent years.