Is football the Ultimate Competitive Business ? ? It doesn’t matter who ya know if you do not produce on the field you will not be on the field !Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Is football the Ultimate Competitive Business ? ? It doesn’t matter who ya know if you do not produce on the field you will not be on the field !Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
I think Kelleher was always likely to be higher and will remain so. Bazunu is probably no higher than third.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
I don’t see all that much between Travers and Bazunu = = Both of them made mistakes, one was punished, one got away with it possibly through luck. It depends on how much any of our young goalkeepers improves and who if any gets playing regularly at the highest level.
Perhaps a bookie can test the faith some of our posters have ?
I was asked that question recently on the thread and my answer is that I didn't see much to differentiate them before the matches, and I don't see much to differentiate them now either.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
They're both League One standard keepers - albeit that one has two years in hand - and they've both a lot to learn yet.
Randolph and Kelleher comfortably the first two still (if we assume Westwood has effectively retired)
That's not what I asked though. But fine if you don't want to get into the hypothetical.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Fair enough, but I think SK does rate Kelleher. However, if Bazunu had performed better I think he had the opportunity to jump above him. I doubt he did though.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Serbia game is second in my hypothetical situation though. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
He was definitely higher coming into the week. I think two really impressive performances from Bazunu could have altered that thinking though, but the opposite has happened imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I'm actually with Kingdom on this. I find it so strange that people (not you) are so gung-ho to toss Hendrick on the scrapheap for Knight/Cullen and to abandon Shane Long for one of the goal shy children up front but there's this strange reluctance to cast Randolph aside for, say, Kelleher. Kelleher is playing marginally more ball than Randolph in the same division and their career trajectories are almost complete opposites at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
And if Bazunu is nominally third choice is he better served back with the U-21s or sitting on the bench with the seniors with Travers, O'Hara or Westwood making up the numbers in the senior team?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Good question. I'd have as strong a U21 side as possible unless a U21 is likely starter or match day participant. I'd have Bazunu with the U21s on that basis. I'd have Knight over Hendrick on merit. Cullen definitely on merit. Both are seeing lots of game time. It's a bit different with our forwards. The U21 forwards have disappointed me. I think they need to knuckle down at club level but there's also a case for promoting them to the seniors as they have to learn the grown up game somehow though.
That’s the worst compliment I’ve ever had. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by sadloserkid
I’ll let the 94 jersey hate sit as a consequence
Both Travers and Bazunu have a lot to learn - agree. But if we are choosing between the two, and choosing between two League One standard keepers, is the match sharp option not the better choice?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I think Kelleher has (serious) weakness with balls across his body and has a tendency to be too "narrow" (Travers in contrast is good at filling out the goals (if that makes sense)). But agree Randolph and Kelleher are Kenny's first two choices.
To be honest, to be choosing among three League One keepers is a Hobson's Choice to me.
I think Kelleher should play at least one of the mooted friendlies against Andorra/Hungary, and probably Randolph the other. Then September is a while away yet and it's too early now to say who I'd want as third choice keeper.
That’s a bit misleading because generally speaking the more talented kids will join the first team’s pre-season tour. So you probably would have had players like Trent Alexander Arnold, Conor Coady, Brad Smith, Jordan Rossiter, Jordan Ibe, Joao Teixeira, Thiago Ilori, Sheyi Ojo, Ovie Ejaria, Ryan Kent, Harry Wilson with the senior team. All the more talented group. At that stage, Branagan was the only lad who had a chance at Liverpool from the 13. The likes of Yesil and Virtue had injuries derail their careers. Sinclair had an agent who ruined his development. The likes of Hart and Marsh were barely good enough to reach that level. So you’re almost comparing apples with oranges.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Kelleher has probably been with the senior pre-season group since Klopp’s first pre-season in 2016 or the year after in 2017.
At least we have some genuine potential between the sticks. We would be very unlucky not to get a good goalkeeper ( or even two) from this potential. If only we had the same potential in every other position.
Fair point. I picked it as an example and to help a bit of talk on the topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
But pick the names you have there - TAA is obviously world class, and it'd be great if Kelleher/Bazunu went on a similar career path.
Coady is a decent Premier League defender.
Brad Smith is in the MLS. Rossiter is at Fleetwood. Ibe is at Derby. Teixeira is a squad player at Feyernoord. Ilori is at newly-promoted Lorient. Ojo is at Cardiff. Ejaria is at Reading. Kent is at Rangers. Wilson is Cardiff.
So of the players you've named, two are genuinely good, and the rest are in and around Championship level at best. And there's no reason Kelleher/Bazunu couldn't pick up an injury or get a bad agent either.
So I think that helps back up my argument against lofty9's suggestion we could be looking at two of the top keepers in Europe in the next few years. We need to be realistic about the future of academy prospects, and how the odds are stacked against even Liverpool/Man City academy players reaching the very top.
Statistically, they're about as good as Scotland, Greece, or Bosnia. We're just behind that now but sinking quickly. They're a side we'd have been comfortable favourites against ten years ago, but not now. I think people have a really fixed idea of how good we are. There's no one of the calibre of Given, Dunne, O'Shea, Duff, or Keane in the current squad, barring Coleman. A few are close, but all of them are defenders, and some of those are off form (Duffy, Doherty).Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
If Doherty doesn’t find form soon he will have to try playing Centre-back of get a move away from Tottenham. I wonder will Mourinho and his Portuguese agent last much longer at Spurs !Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
I do think peoples opinions are levelling out, around where we are at. I also think the players we have now just dont have the ability to play the way Kenny wants. He's banking on the younger lads from his time at the 21s, moulding them into the style and system he wants to play. But boys and mens football is very different, he has no guarantee any of them will amount to consistent senior internationals. And I think its pretty clear after 11 games, that the players haven't been able to adapt to what he wants.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
It will be interesting to see how the 9 day training camp goes, if he serves some ultimatums, and who doesn't show up.
The suggestion to make him number 1 was tongue in cheek stu. I think we agree that he made mistakes and needs to develop. We disagree on some of the errors being worthy of howler status and on the relative use of judging him on being ready to be #1 when he is 19 and auditioning to be #3 or maybe #2. I took way more positives from his performances over the two games while I agree that he was ropey against Qatar. He still had bright patches in that game though and if he was playing a different position we might not even be commenting.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I wouldn't put a ton of stock in Rochdale's nominees for young player of the month either. He's a loan signing. They are hardly going to get very excited about him unless there's scope to sign him. I've scanned their forum since he got there and it's a mixed bag. But again, he's 19 and frequently exposed playing behind the worst team in that league. Bound to be under focus.
Well I can agree with most of that.
The problem with keeper - and I know from experience - is your mistakes are way more noticeable. And for a good reason too.
Absolutely. I'm preparing a full doc of all your mistakes since you started posting about my Gavin. Leave him alone!Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Surprised I've posted so much about Ireland games to be honest. I used to love following the national team but it went sour for me for various reasons and I just stuck to LoI. At least Kenny and this batch of young players makes things interesting again. For me at least.
Totally agreed! I actually think Travers is better as a keeper, while Bazunu may have better footie skills, but the almost penalty rush nonense. Travers will come better and strongerQuote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
Yeah. I would have tried another keepers I think he overexposed them. would have tried Doyle, McDermott and Danny Rogers and Lawlor (who was a Man city keeper ) tbh, these 3 are the future with Kelleher we are covered thereQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I make it 9 of the starting 11 from this match who have not started for their club since (maybe i have missed one?). 6 of the 11 Championship or lower, so really should be. 3 of the 6 subs not getting starts either, one (Parrot) bombed out of squad down to u23s. They probably over performed getting a draw against Qatar.
Not sure that's entirely accurate -
Bazunu started the first game after Qatar (but hasn't played since).
Coleman started Everton's last two having recovered from injury.
Duffy hasn't started since
Christie is a regular starter
O'Shea has started WBA's last two games
McClean hasn't started since (O'Neill was annoyed with him playing this game as I recall because of a niggle he had)
Horgan hasn't started since
Brady of course was injured in this game and hasn't started since
Hendrick hasn't started since
Molumby hasn't started since
Long hasn't started since
So "only" 7 of the 11 haven't started a game since. Still, that's a seriously worrying stat.
Yeah missed Christie and that Bazunu started after the Qatar game before being dropped. In general our squad is in a v poor place at the moment, hopefully next season they will fare better, or it is v difficult to see how Kenny improves results.
Just having a quick glance at how the Luxemburg squad has gone since our game with them. I can see players who have started in the Portuguese, German, Swiss and Ukrainian top divisions. They have players who have scored since in the Swiss and German top division. We have lads who are getting bombed out of championship and league 1 teams. Yet a lot of people expected us to turn up and beat them comfortably. Ukrainian top division may not be as competitive as ,say, the championship, but i would hazard a guess it would prepare a player for international football much better.
Union SGQuote:
Originally Posted by Exgrad
New York City
FC Lviv
Young Boys
Waasland-Beveren, on loan from Norwich City
Dynamo Kyiv
Nacional
Vorskla Poltava
Mainz
Standard Liège
Casa Pia A.C
v
Rochdale, on loan from Man City
Everton
West Brom
Newcastle
Spurs
Sheff Utd
Anderlecht
Derby
Preston
West Brom
Luton
Were you saying that Cyprus had players scoring for Olympiacos and the like when they beat us 5-2?
Michael Constantinou, and Okkas were both in Olympiakos CL squad at that time. Constantinou in particular was on a serious run of form those couple of yearsQuote:
Originally Posted by Boomshakalaka
Yes and I don't remember that being used as an excuse for Staunton. If it was it would have been laughed at. Talking up Luxembourg shows how bad things have become under Kenny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingdom
Talking up Luxembourg I think puts in perspective how bad the squad has become in general.
Maybe Kenny could be getting more out of them, but it's a ****-poor squad in fairness. No Dunne/Given/Duff/Keane that Staunton had.
It's virtually the same squad McCarthy had. Clearly not the most talented squad but it wasn't the squad people were blaming when we drew away to Georgia or when we failed to qualify. Why is the current manager getting a free pass with a horrendous record since he took over?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I don't think he is getting a free pass. There's a thread on here as to whether he should be sacked for example.
I know what you're saying about having the same squad aa Mick, but those players are 18 months older now, and it was an old enough squad as it was.
He's having to bring through a lot of players who aren't ready yet. But our problems go way beyond the manager right now, and I don't see a feasible option that'll change things significantly tbh
He's getting a far easier ride than any recent managers, that's for sure. Despite doing a far worse job than any of them. Actually, statistically, he's the worst manager we've ever had. Now, I agree that there are huge issues elsewhere but having an inept senior manager does not help things. We're flying down the World rankings, slipping down the seedings can take a long time to recover from. We have some decent players coming through, potential only at the moment but being introduced to our senior team under a manager who's out of his depth is not going to help with their development. He still has a chance to turn it around but how bad does it have to get before we have to put an end to it? He could be doing serious damage that will have negative effects for a long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Maybe someone can put together the list of clubs that the Gibraltar players play for to compare them to the Luxemburg team. Im not sure they even had any full time pros. McCarthy was poxed to beat them so lets not pretend that he was far better with the same squadQuote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
As for away to Georgia, do you think Randolph made the decision to time waste on a goal kick 20 minutes into that game?
I'm not defending McCarthy, he oversaw some awful performances. He was heavily criticised and I believe rightfully so but compare his record with Kenny's and it's undeniable that he did far better with the same squad. He had 10 games in charge, won 5, drew 4 and only lost 1. He came very close to qualifying us for the Euros. Kenny hasn't won a game, got knocked out of the Euro play offs, came 3rd in a weak Nations league group and has us joint bottom with Azerbaijan and out of World Cup qualifying after 2 games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
You seem to think McCarthy did a poor job? If so, how would you describe Kenny's reign so far?
Yep I think McCarthy was terrible. Every game we went out it looked like we had never been coached.
As for Kenny I think the results have be a disaster, I gave him a pass for some of the earlier games because of the Covid stuff and all the ins and outs that were happening in the squad. The Luxemburg result cant be defended at all. What I will say is that we are creating far more chances under Kenny than we were under McCarthy. It actually looks like we are working towards something, if we could get a few players actually convert some of the chances we are creating the results would be far better. Under McCarthy and last few years of O'Neill the only time we ever looked like creating a chance was from a set piece.
That being said, if Kenny doesnt pick up a few wins soon he will have to go, I just dont have any idea who Id replace him with.
We are playing more football and creating more chances, but we don't have the personnel to fully execute the plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
I hope I'm wrong
If McCarthy was terrible and Kenny has performed far worse than him.............Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
I don't see where you're getting that we're creating far more chances under Kenny? We basically scored our only chances v Serbia and still lost. Apart from a set piece goal from Duffy, was it another 7 games until we scored under Kenny? Don't forget, we have mostly played very average teams. We played England in a friendly and it was embarrassing. The way things are going, the only thing it looks like we're working towards is being demoted to League D in the nations league and trying to qualify that way.
It's been an utter shambles thus far. Some of the stuff under McCarthy, O'Neill and Trapatoni was hard to watch but I'd take that any day of the week ahead of the dross that's been served to us for the past year.
Was it Trapattoni who pointed out that a third of all international goals came from set pieces?
In the eleven games Kenny has been in charge for, we've scored four goals
In the eleven previous games to him taking over, we scored thirteen goals, so while we weren't scoring many, we were putting the goal in the back of the net. McCarthy didn't play good football, and I'm not for one minute arguing he did, but he was pragmatic enough to get a goal by any means necessary. Kenny hasn't shown yet that he can change his team, either the formation or the tactics, when it isn't working. In all but one game where we conceded in his tenure so far, we lost.
Pragmatism was giving us about 30% possession in most games. There was no future in conceding the ball for most of the game, putting 11 behind the ball and hoping to nick a lucky goal. That was where we were with McCarthy and later part of O'Neills tenure. Did we have something like 20% possession away to Wales when we won with the McClean goal? Possession is not everything but it at least gives us some sort of gameplan and a base to start from.
Kenny is trying to chance the entire culture of how we play, the problem is that he's probably trying to do too much too quickly with a brutal bunch of players. He does probably need to be a bit more pragmatic but again I go back to the likes of thr Slovakia game where we were very good and had more than enough chances to win the game comfortably if the players didn't make a balls of it, especially Hourihane at the end of the game. If we had won that game and had qualified there would be a very different opinion of Kenny by a lot of people.
I'm still in the camp of thinking he's right for the job but I absolutely admit he needs to see a bit of luck change and get some wins.
Under Kenny, we've managed to win the possession duel against some of the average teams we've played against but as was pointed out in the post before yours, we've only scored 4 goals under his tenure. That tells you that the game plan has been ineffective. You can use luck as an excuse only a limited number of times, luck shouldn't come into it a year later after 11 games in charge and losing to teams like Luxembourg. Let's not forget, Kenny had virtually a full selection to pick from against a weak Slovakia team who were missing players, luck was on his side there but he failed to take advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
I think the biggest problem is that previous managers can now claim vindication in their theory that we don't have players capable of playing a passing and possession style. And they may be right but I don't think a more progressive style has been given a fair go because we have a manager in place who's completely out of his depth at this level. This most likely will lead us to hiring a manager with similar philosophies to previous regimes. It'll be back to long ball and keeping things tight. The aim of changing the culture of how we play is being seriously damaged by Kenny, not the other way around.