Republic of Ireland V Luxembourg - Saturday, 27th March 2021 - World Cup Qualifier

We need to lose the McCarthy love fest and move on ,his last campaign was hardly a resounding success saved only by a centre half heading in a few setpiece goals coupled with hoofing the football anywhere from our last third of the pitch and a few glorious victories over Gibralter.Now Kenny has a list of unfortunate excuses for results up to tonight but tonight it was a disaster especially second half and toothless both on the pitch and his decision making off it.He needs to be left at it now ,bring in the kids and see can he produce over time, its not as if we are blessed with quality,all our so called established players are not regulars at their clubs and are injury prone.

We were terrible, no runners from midfield beyond Collins. We failed to get Robinson in the game. Our brighter moments in the pocket all happened in the first half when Browne got into that space and fluffed his feet everytime. Stevens had an absolute stinker as a wing back. Brady, McClean and Long are finished. There was two occasions in the 2nd half in which our players could've put a simple ball through to Robinson after a great run and he'd have been through but they played the ball out wide instead. Players need to be more clinical in the very few opportunities that come up.

Lux have been building for this for three years, we are unfortunately having to dig new foundations of a new house now. They were fortunate though as I thought their Captian should've had a 2md yellow.

Where do we go now? Gotta hope Brexit sends our youth to Europe and they develop as players there rather than in lower levels in England.

Was a big supporter of Kenny, but tonight was awful players need to take a big share of the blame but Kenny just seemed clueless on the sidelines and unwilling to adapt. And perhaps not important but he always seems so uncomfortable in the post and pre game interviews

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Originally Posted by zero

total silence from the pro Kenny group. hardly a surprise.

blessed are the meek.

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Stan, Mick (twice), Trap, O'Neill and Keane and now Kenny. Won't be long until we have 11 managers to blame instead of 11 players.

I posted in a WhatsApp group earlier that a loss would be bigger than just the international side, it's a kick in the teeth for the LOI. Kenny was pushed as the best manager the league had produced, his Dundalk side played the best football, and were the first side to earn a point in the group stages of European club football, but he's clearly not up to management at international level.

I did note at the time of his appointment that there were a few similarities with Brian Kerr's appointment - both came from a League of Ireland background, had a reputation for attention to detail, working with young players, and getting the best out of limited players, coincidentally both also replaced Mick McCarthy. And both were shown to be out of their depth at this level. Kerr had the strongest pool of players available to to an Irish manager since the late 80's, and underachieved massively with them. Kenny has a much weaker set of players to work with but is unable to produce anything with them. Right now he has many clean sheets as goals in his ten games in charge, His team have led their opposition for 22 of the 900 minutes in his reign.

As others posted in the build up to the game, Luxembourg are not the pushovers of old, have improved in recent years, and have players playing around Europe, including one with Champions League experience this season - the goalscorer.
They've also kept 2 clean sheets in their last 20 games before tonight. We had three shots on target.

The 5-2 loss in Cyprus ended qualification for the 2008 European Championships. The loss tonight has ended qualification for the World Cup in Qatar next year.
The 5-2 loss in Cyprus was the beginning of the end for Steve Staunton's time in charge - it dragged on for another year before a draw against the same opposition ended it.
The loss tonight is the beginning of the end of Kenny's reign.

Brian Kerr's contract was not renewed by the FAI when it expired at the end of 2005, it took 15 years before another manager with League of Ireland experience took charge of the national side. It might be longer than that before the next one does.

The players were awful tonight in the sense that they looked like they didn't even know the objective was to put the ball in the opposition net. We had mountains of possession but absolutely no imagination in the final third. Lux didn't deserve to win but neither did we insofar as we couldn't score in an empty net these days. That fact has not changed over the last several years. Not Kenny's fault. But he will probably get the axe because of it.

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Originally Posted by zero

total silence from the pro Kenny group. hardly a surprise.

blessed are the meek.

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I guess I'm one of those that's aimed at. Still here, just trying to take it all in. It says a lot that wanting football to win out, gets you pigeon-holed, as if Ireland losing to Luxembourg doesn't hurt "us" too. But it does, don't worry.
And it's nearly 2a,m. Back tomorrow sweetie.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

I posted in a WhatsApp group earlier that a loss would be bigger than just the international side, it's a kick in the teeth for the LOI. Kenny was pushed as the best manager the league had produced, his Dundalk side played the best football, and were the first side to earn a point in the group stages of European club football, but he's clearly not up to management at international level.

I did note at the time of his appointment that there were a few similarities with Brian Kerr's appointment - both came from a League of Ireland background, had a reputation for attention to detail, working with young players, and getting the best out of limited players, coincidentally both also replaced Mick McCarthy. And both were shown to be out of their depth at this level. Kerr had the strongest pool of players available to to an Irish manager since the late 80's, and underachieved massively with them. Kenny has a much weaker set of players to work with but is unable to produce anything with them. Right now he has many clean sheets as goals in his ten games in charge, His team have led their opposition for 22 of the 900 minutes in his reign.

As others posted in the build up to the game, Luxembourg are not the pushovers of old, have improved in recent years, and have players playing around Europe, including one with Champions League experience this season - the goalscorer.
They've also kept 2 clean sheets in their last 20 games before tonight. We had three shots on target.

The 5-2 loss in Cyprus ended qualification for the 2008 European Championships. The loss tonight has ended qualification for the World Cup in Qatar next year.
The 5-2 loss in Cyprus was the beginning of the end for Steve Staunton's time in charge - it dragged on for another year before a draw against the same opposition at him ended it.
The loss tonight is the beginning of the end of Kenny's reign.

Brian Kerr's contract was not renewed by the FAI when it expired at the end of 2005, it took 15 years before another manager with League of Ireland experience took charge of the national side. It might be longer than that before the next one does.

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I'm not sure that's a fair comparison. I thought Kerr did well with Ireland, played good football, and if not for that Israeli goalkeeper, we would have been qualified before the Switzerland match.

Failing an immediate change of management, Ireland are well on course to finish bottom of the group and are, with little doubt, amongst the very worse sides in Europe right now.

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Originally Posted by Colbert Report

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison. I thought Kerr did well with Ireland, played good football, and if not for that Israeli goalkeeper, we would have been qualified before the Switzerland match.

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His crazy substitutions having no influence in the game at all............ tut tut

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Brian Kerr's contract was not renewed by the FAI when it expired at the end of 2005, it took 15 years before another manager with League of Ireland experience took charge of the national side. It might be longer than that before the next one does.

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Being honest, that in itself might not be a bad thing. The Kenny era has shone an unfavourable light on the gap between the LOI and even mid tier European football, never mind the top level. Sometimes the truth hurts but it's better to know it and accept it.

I certainly wouldn't consider myself a League of Ireland man, but no question I really wanted Kenny to succeed. I genuinely thought, despite the defeat against Serbia, that there were green shoots there on Wednesday. I was wrong. Tonight we were back to the dark nights of the Nations League last year and it was horrible to watch.

I had zero expectations of us qualifying for the world cup before the campaign started. To be honest I had zero expectations of us even getting second in the group. I did think we would slip up at some point in the four games against Azerbaijan and Luxembourg, although probably not through a deserved home defeat to Luxembourg. What I wanted to see though was progress on the field, direction and purpose to our play, even if we didn't always get the results. I have to say in nine of the 10 games that Kenny has had I've seen nothing - and in the cold light of day the Serbia game wasn't even that great either. That it was the best of the 10 speaks volumes I think.

I really wanted the Kenny project to work but it's obvious now that it won't. We may well soldier on with him until the autumn but he's already a lame duck manager. Who knows what the future holds from here (I still believe there is hope with the players coming through, though it may take a number of years) but it really would be best for all parties now if the current manager was taken out of the firing line.

Let's not get carried away. Mick presided over the absolute muck which was the away performance in Georgia and quite a few other underwhelming displays. I love Mick as a person who has a real passion for the Irish cause and I can't forget his performances as a player, but tonight's performance under Stephen Kenny has been a long time coming. We've been outclassed by so-called lesser sides for many years now. Funny enough - we weren't outclassed tonight. The bottom line is we are a nation of defenders who have never put an emphasis on attacking football (even our most memorable years under Jack were built on his making us tough to beat). You can't win games without scoring (it's that way in rugby, GAA, etc). Time for the nation to wake up to that fact.

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Originally Posted by Bungle

Whelan and Lawrenson were stalwarts in one of the best club sides of all time. Both world class players Brady was world class. O'Leary and Stapleton top class players. Moran a very good defender. Not sure if the era you refer to would include Beglin and McGrath, as they more came in the mid 80s. Packie was around as well. So much quality.

Now, we have a few very talented kids. I really like Bazunu, Knight and O'Shea. I like Cullen. Coleman still a very good player and a really great servant. Then a load of lads who have been living on Euro 2016 for years. McClean has great spirit but is a horribly limited player.

The two eras are chalk and cheese.

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Yes the two eras are chalk and cheese. The premier league has long since diversified and its less likely Lawrenson, Beglin and Whelan would be playing regularly in a top premier league side. Ditto for Moran, considering the prequisite to have decent distribution from defense in the current era.

The current crop of Irish players are certainly the worst in my 30 years of memory. The FAI is broke, Covid has wreaked havoc on many of the games thus far. Another manager is unlikely to do any better. And we would be unlikely to attract any decent managers given the financial restrictions and the paucity of talent making it an unattractive job. This campaign was always a rebuilding process. Time for Irish supporters to take a step back, take a reality check, and give Kenny until the 2024 campaign. It’s difficult to do, and I’m hurting just as much as anyone else. Let’s be patient and blood in the rest of the players and aim for 2024. Bigger picture and pragmatism called for.

Haven't posted in a while but have been following the team as loyally as ever. We now know we're not going to the world cup. I would take the rest of this campaign as an opportunity to build a team of young players and cap as many young players that are eligible for multiple countries as possible. Imagine where we'd be if grealish and rice were in the team.

Brady, Long, McClean are done, shouldn't be in anymore squads.

The One positive from tonight was Bazuna impressed the heck out of me. Time to stick with the young players and build for the future. But there HAS to be a plan including Kenny eventually handing off a team of young decent footballers to a more experienced manager.

In many ways tonight was the best thing that could have happened to Irish football because we've been farting around for almost 20 years trying to BS our way into tournaments just to pay off some fai debt. Now it's time to build.

Everything you say Eirambler is correct. And I, like you, want the Kenny project to work. But what is getting lost in all of this is that Stephen Kenny is quite a success as a manager - Dundalk, several LOI league titles, interest from Scotland, taking the U-21's as far as he did and arguably into the Uefa playoffs had he stayed in charge. Stephen Kenny is a manager who has the foresight to try to change the way the Irish team plays football. That takes courage - courage no other manager before him had. Ultimately no one will care and he'll be yesterday's news very soon. And then, we'll be back to square one - being outclassed by lesser teams at the Aviva and complaining about our manager, whoever he may be.

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Originally Posted by Colbert Report

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison. I thought Kerr did well with Ireland, played good football, and if not for that Israeli goalkeeper, we would have been qualified before the Switzerland match.

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Here's how the group went - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_F...3_UEFA_Group_4
If we had beaten Israel, we'd have been a point ahead of Switzerland going in to that last game, needing to draw or win to finish second. The way things actually went, we needed to win to get into the play offs. The game finished 0-0. He took off Robbie Keane when we needed a goal.
his best performance was the 0-0 draw in Paris. His worst performance was the 0-0 draw with Switzerland.
The highest ranked side he beat in a competitive international were Georgia. They were 84th in the FIFA rankings at the time.
He never scored more than three goals in a game (and only managed that twice)
We were 2-0 up in that game against Israel, when he decided that bringing on Graham Kavanagh for an injured Robbie Keane, and pushing Kevin Kilbane out to the left and Damien Duff up front was better than bringing on Stephen Ellott.
That goalkeeper conned us out of a fair game, Kerr's decisions cost us the win

I like your analysis. The future has to rest with the youth (obvious enough statement but there is certainly no future in the established international players we have). I would like to think that players eligible for multiple countries would want to play for us, but after tonight........ If Kenny is to be removed by the FAI authorities, I would like them to at least keep him on in some capacity. After all, he developed an U-21 team which almost became the first to qualify for 6he Uefa finals. That experience with the youngsters in Ireland has to count for something going forward.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

I posted in a WhatsApp group earlier that a loss would be bigger than just the international side, it's a kick in the teeth for the LOI. Kenny was pushed as the best manager the league had produced, his Dundalk side played the best football, and were the first side to earn a point in the group stages of European club football, but he's clearly not up to management at international level.

I did note at the time of his appointment that there were a few similarities with Brian Kerr's appointment - both came from a League of Ireland background, had a reputation for attention to detail, working with young players, and getting the best out of limited players, coincidentally both also replaced Mick McCarthy. And both were shown to be out of their depth at this level. Kerr had the strongest pool of players available to to an Irish manager since the late 80's, and underachieved massively with them. Kenny has a much weaker set of players to work with but is unable to produce anything with them. Right now he has many clean sheets as goals in his ten games in charge, His team have led their opposition for 22 of the 900 minutes in his reign.

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In his first campaign, Kerr took over a team that had lost their first two matches against the top two teams in the group, and our best player of the past 30 years had retired himself from international football. Hardly ideal conditions.

His "massive underachievement" in the next campaign was finishing one point off the playoffs. Keane had come back, but was very much in the twilight of his career. Duff was in his Newcastle phase. Apparently he had to do, because all who were wise told us we were in a weak group with a French side that were "there for the taking". Talk about notions. That French side went on to the World Cup final were they were edged out on pennos.

Kerr's dismissal was very harsh. But Delaney wanted to put his mate Stan in charge. That turned out well.

In Kerr we had a good value, committed, long-term manager.

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Originally Posted by brine3

In his first campaign, Kerr took over a team that had lost their first two matches against the top two teams in the group, and our best player of the past 30 years had retired himself from international football. Hardly ideal conditions

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McCarthy got no points from the opening two games. Kerr got one point from the same opposition. He needed a last minute winner against Albania at home. Needing a win in the last game away to Switzerland, he lost 2-0.

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Originally Posted by brine3

His "massive underachievement" in the next campaign was finishing one point off the playoffs.

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We were seeded second in the draw - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_F...seeding_(UEFA) - and finished fourth, in a six team group.

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Originally Posted by brine3

Keane had come back, but was very much in the twilight of his career. Duff was in his Newcastle phase. Apparently he had to do, because all who were wise told us we were in a weak group with a French side that were "there for the taking". Talk about notions. That French side went on to the World Cup final were they were edged out on pennos.

Kerr's dismissal was very harsh. But Delaney wanted to put his mate Stan in charge. That turned out well.

In Kerr we had a good value, committed, long-term manager.

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We needed a penalty save from Shay Given to save a win in Cyprus in the penultimate game. After scoring 10 goals in the first seven games, we scored one goal in the last three. We surrendered leads to Switzerland and Israel(twice). The three teams ahead of us all scored more than we did. We won four games, beating the two lowest ranked sides in the group twice.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

The bottom line is we are a nation of defenders who have never put an emphasis on attacking football (even our most memorable years under Jack were built on his making us tough to beat). You can't win games without scoring (it's that way in rugby, GAA, etc). Time for the nation to wake up to that fact.

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I agree with a lot of this. But at the end of the day you have to play to your strengths. We are indeed a nation of defenders. The best players we have currently are defenders and many of the best players we have coming through are defenders too. So ultimately, the way we are most likely to succeed is to get ourselves back to being rock solid at the back and do the best we can with what we have from midfield forward. That doesn't mean we need to play hoof ball again for the next 20 years, but as a middle of the road European nation, if we are secure at the back first and foremost we'll often eke out enough going forward to get us results against better teams and avoid embarrassing nights like tonight against poorer teams. As we have shown in the past that's a combination that can get us to major finals. There's a middle ground between what Kenny has tried to do and what MON, Trap etc tried to do - we need to find it.

I think the Kenny experiment was an itch that many of us, myself included, needed to scratch. But having seen it in action for 10 games we need to accept that it's not a runner at this point in time. Maybe we can revisit it in the future if we have better players. But I think we need a back to basics approach for the time being, depressing a thought as that is.

It hurts me and it saddens me as I so badly wanted him to succeed.

Kenny failed tonight. His in-game management was a complete and utter disaster. He may be sacked (unlikely), he may walk (unlikely) and we’ll do the same boom/bust thinking from one manager to the next, one average set of players to the next, but make no mistake:

As a footballing nation, we are EXACTLY where we DESERVE to be.

Ole, Ole, Ole.

Traditionally we've actually been a country with very good central midfielders. Not any longer. Therein lies the problem.

I'm still too sickened to even put coherent thoughts together about the match. Possibly the lowest I've ever felt as an Ireland fan. I've been a massive supporter of Kenny but there's no defending that performance. There's no mitigating circumstances that you can cling to.

But I will say the glee of the "I told you so" comments on here by some people is disgusting. Some almost seem happy with the result so they can say they were right about Kenny. I seriously don't understand people at times

In Kenny’s defence, I didn’t think he got the tactics that wrong.
But he can’t make players pass it to feet. How many times was a pass played slightly behind a player, thus breaking the momentum of the move? This has been an issue in Irish soccer for a few years now.

How many times did we give the ball away, especially in first half, with a sloppy pass 4 yard pass?
That’s the players’ fault, not Kenny’s.

I’m not saying all is rosy but the players have to take as much criticism as the manager for last night.

It really is a new low. We got to hope this brings around massive change in structures so we can develop higher quality players for the future. As for now, I don't see how Kenny can continue in his role after that. Yes our players aren't top level but Luxembourg are hardly world beaters. They were just better coached, better organised, they had a plan, everyone knew their roles. We were outclassed by Luxembourg on the pitch and on the sideline.

It hurts because we all wanted Kenny to succeed. A manager who is positive about our players and wants to play attractively. A LOI man as well. But he's way out of his depth. I think some people's criticism of previous regimes may have to be revised. Some of the stuff under McCarthy was hard to watch but he had us close to qualifying with basically the same players. The thing is we don't have to go back to the long ball tactics of previous managers, we can play a progressive style but we need to hire a manager who's capable of implementing it. Money might be an issue here but one things for sure, Kenny has shown that he's not competent at this level and we need someone new.

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Originally Posted by Fixer82

In Kenny’s defence, I didn’t think he got the tactics that wrong.
But he can’t make players pass it to feet. How many times was a pass played slightly behind a player, thus breaking the momentum of the move? This has been an issue in Irish soccer for a few years now.

How many times did we give the ball away, especially in first half, with a sloppy pass 4 yard pass?
That’s the players’ fault, not Kenny’s.

I’m not saying all is rosy but the players have to take as much criticism as the manager for last night.

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Previous managers claimed our players weren't capable of playing a different style than keeping it tight and playing more directly. Have they been vindicated?

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Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA

Previous managers claimed our players weren't capable of playing a different style than keeping it tight and playing more directly. Have they been vindicated?

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Probably somewhat.
It’s sad that professional footballers can’t get the ball directly to feet with a 5 yard pass. I’ve noticed it for years in Irish football that when a pass is played, under no pressure, the receiver often has to check his run or run slightly back for the ball. Kills momentum.

Luxembourg were well organised and up for it. That’s all they needed

The midfield 3 dynamic didn't work. Knight took on Cullen's role (less effectively) and Cullen looked lost as his natural instinct was to fall positional deep and do what Knight was doing. Resulted in a lot of sideways passing between the two, and killed forward momentum. Moot point in the context of the result.

Not sure if Kenny should go or not, as the culpability for last night's result is not solely his - it's years of neglect and short-termism.

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Originally Posted by tommy_c12000

Yes the two eras are chalk and cheese. The premier league has long since diversified and its less likely Lawrenson, Beglin and Whelan would be playing regularly in a top premier league side. Ditto for Moran, considering the prequisite to have decent distribution from defense in the current era.

The current crop of Irish players are certainly the worst in my 30 years of memory. The FAI is broke, Covid has wreaked havoc on many of the games thus far. Another manager is unlikely to do any better. And we would be unlikely to attract any decent managers given the financial restrictions and the paucity of talent making it an unattractive job. This campaign was always a rebuilding process. Time for Irish supporters to take a step back, take a reality check, and give Kenny until the 2024 campaign. It’s difficult to do, and I’m hurting just as much as anyone else. Let’s be patient and blood in the rest of the players and aim for 2024. Bigger picture and pragmatism called for.

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It was harder to get in that Liverpool team than the current one. A wonderful team. Lawrenson was one of the best defenders of his era. World class no doubt and he came through at Preston. Whelan edged another great player in Sheedy to replace Ray Kennedy. That Liverpool team was tactically and technically better than anything on the continent for probably 8-10 years before Heysel. Whelan was a better version of Wijnaldum. Klopp would have loved him. Curtis Jones shows that there remains a pathway for top talent at Liverpool.

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Originally Posted by Fixer82

In Kenny’s defence, I didn’t think he got the tactics that wrong.
But he can’t make players pass it to feet. How many times was a pass played slightly behind a player, thus breaking the momentum of the move? This has been an issue in Irish soccer for a few years now.

How many times did we give the ball away, especially in first half, with a sloppy pass 4 yard pass?
That’s the players’ fault, not Kenny’s.

I’m not saying all is rosy but the players have to take as much criticism as the manager for last night.

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I do think Kenny got the tactics wrong and Luxembourg had a better plan. That's not to do with the players. Also inane substitutions saw a deteriotation in the performance.

A general lack of hunger amongst the players is down to them - and also Kenny. I think Luxembourg wanted it more.

Is this the lowest point supporting Ireland in the past 40 years?!! It feels that way. Mainly because this is a culmination, not an isolated shock. If we had a competitive game next week, I would not be confident we’d get a positive reaction.

I was heartened by the Serbia game.
Although one particular feature of both games bothers me - when the need to change things came, the changes were ineffective/horribly ineffective. I thought the first half was ok tonight. However, if felt like time and time again we’d get the ball out to the wingbacks and then the move broke down. The next ball was rarely creative. Maybe a system change was needed but we needed to find a way to make the next phase positive. The changes made actually brought us back. Brady did very little, Browne’s impact went backwards....looked like he was out of position. I could go on.....

Lots wrong with tonight but in game management and lack of insight/flexibility to change is one of of many worries

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Originally Posted by lofty9

Where do we go now? Gotta hope Brexit sends our youth to Europe and they develop as players there rather than in lower levels in England.

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I think to go down this route would show we've learnt absolutely nothing from the past 20 years.

We can't rely on other countries to develop our players. Doesn't matter if that country is England or Spain or Luxembourg.

A country our size has to have a proper domestic setup to develop players up to the age of 21/22. Most other countries do. We don't. That's a huge issue.

Rovers in fairness to them are starting to put in a place a proper academy structure and they're starting to reap the benefits of that (as is the national team)

Dundalk, the other big side here at the moment, haven't put anything in place with their Euro millions and are now signing whatever random foreigners they can find. It's their money of course, and unlike most LoI sides they've actually earned it, but it's foundations of sand and will go nowhere in the medium term. Cork have already gone down that route it seems.

Every other country in Europe uses its domestic league to develop players for its national team. We don't. We instead have a 19th-century league structure which encourages big fish in small ponds. The league has no money, the FAI have no money, and the general public have no interest. While that stays, we're going to continue going backwards.

Sending players to Spain instead of England won't change that.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I think to go down this route would show we've learnt absolutely nothing from the past 20 years.

We can't rely on other countries to develop our players. Doesn't matter if that country is England or Spain or Luxembourg.

A country our size has to have a proper domestic setup to develop players up to the age of 21/22. Most other countries do. We don't. That's a huge issue.

Rovers in fairness to them are starting to put in a place a proper academy structure and they're starting to reap the benefits of that (as is the national team)

Dundalk, the other big side here at the moment, haven't put anything in place with their Euro millions and are now signing whatever random foreigners they can find. It's their money of course, and unlike most LoI sides they've actually earned it, but it's foundations of sand and will go nowhere in the medium term. Cork have already gone down that route it seems.

Every other country in Europe uses its domestic league to develop players for its national team. We don't. We instead have a 19th-century league structure which encourages big fish in small ponds. The league has no money, the FAI have no money, and the general public have no interest. While that stays, we're going to continue going backwards.

Sending players to Spain instead of England won't change that.

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Agree, but I'm looking towards the next 10 years. I'm just hoping Brexit means that more kids can go to teams around the continent and play in champions league games. The way UK football is now with wealth is the death knell of our national team. Every kid is competing with the best in the world. That didn't happen with Whelan, Lawrenson, Brady Etc. The longer term project you and I want, will only happen after the death of everyone who has registered on this forum- it will take that long!

The fact that Shamrock Rovers and every other clubs remit is to sell these players to get income. Damian Duff at Rovers now Shelbourne, Paddy Mccourt, and Colin Healy tell the kids that they will have them over on England, worst case scenario if they apply themselves that they will be playing football as a career in Ireland. Cork have a fantastic set up, but again their kids are getting cherry picked. They work with agents hand in hand like best friends. Working in youth football myself I've lost faith in the vulturism of the new underage LOI format and have seen our own players getting trials at Celtic weeks after joining the Derry academy. The youth academies are not there to provide for first team football in Ireland. The league in its current format has already produced a lot of international players, but via England. Project oblivion needs the stadia sorted and the passion of those who support the national side toward supporting a national league. All the FAI's fault to date but who's going to change that? Who's going to invest 100s of millions in Ireland's National Football League, to rebrand, market, broadcast and build it and take it to a level of say the Belgian or Austrian league? Would you take the MLS standard? Look at the cost of that to get to where its at. Bottom line, our goose is cooked!

Most top European clubs aim to sell players though. Not at 16, but at 21/22 when they've broken into the first team and maybe have some European experience under their belts.

The league has produced remarkably few international players. Fewer than most domestic leagues across Europe.

Don't agree it's entirely the FAI's fault - the general football public is to blame too for ignoring the domestic league - but certainly the FAI have had their priorities very wrong for a long time. And yeah, it's not going to change any time soon. Spanish, Italian, German and French leagues also have wealth and an Irish player is going to have a lot to compete with there too. Plus a language barrier of course.

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Originally Posted by lofty9

Agree, but I'm looking towards the next 10 years. I'm just hoping Brexit means that more kids can go to teams around the continent and play in champions league games. The way UK football is now with wealth is the death knell of our national team. Every kid is competing with the best in the world. That didn't happen with Whelan, Lawrenson, Brady Etc. The longer term project you and I want, will only happen after the death of everyone who has registered on this forum- it will take that long!

The fact that Shamrock Rovers and every other clubs remit is to sell these players to get income. Damian Duff at Rovers now Shelbourne, Paddy Mccourt, and Colin Healy tell the kids that they will have them over on England, worst case scenario if they apply themselves that they will be playing football as a career in Ireland. Cork have a fantastic set up, but again their kids are getting cherry picked. They work with agents hand in hand like best friends. Working in youth football myself I've lost faith in the vulturism of the new underage LOI format and have seen our own players getting trials at Celtic weeks after joining the Derry academy. The youth academies are not there to provide for first team football in Ireland. The league in its current format has already produced a lot of international players, but via England. Project oblivion needs the stadia sorted and the passion of those who support the national side toward supporting a national league. All the FAI's fault to date but who's going to change that? Who's going to invest 100s of millions in Ireland's National Football League, to rebrand, market, broadcast and build it and take it to a level of say the Belgian or Austrian league? Would you take the MLS standard? Look at the cost of that to get to where its at. Bottom line, our goose is cooked!

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A lot of very good points.

What I would say is that players like Whelan, Lawrenson and Brady would break through today no problem at any of the top clubs. They may have to go on a loan first but I've no doubt that their class would shine through. The players we are producing are nowhere what we used to produce. The coaching here was often poor back then, but kids played street football so their technical ability wasn't as behind.

I am actually hopeful for the longer term future. Rovers and Bohs have a very good academy system. We have a very strong cohort of players aged about 19. Bazunu, Knight, O'Shea and Nathan Collins are very good for their age. Molumby, Idah and Parrott haven't kicked on, but a good chance that they may ultimately become important players for us. Parrott is the most concerning because his potential ceiling is very high. What we do need is a few years of similar quality to that 2002 age group. The lads aged about 16 with Heffernan and Zefi do look very promising. That Evan Ferguson is a very good talent too. Unfortunately, bigger countries have a few Fergusons or Zefis every age group, whereas we far more reliant on a generational talent. You see how Wales have benefited from Bale and Ramsey.

I think people are naive thinking it would be great if our players went to say Atalanta rather than Liverpool or United. Maybe clubs that on paper are easier to get through because they are smaller clubs, but with homesickness, it will be probably harder for young lads to make it on the continent. The key will be sending our players to England or the continent when they are 19 or 20 and have a bit more life experience.

I think the next four years will be very depressing personally though because Kenny isn't up to scratch and until we have a team with a decent enough quality in it, very few managers will want to manage us.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I think to go down this route would show we've learnt absolutely nothing from the past 20 years.

We can't rely on other countries to develop our players. Doesn't matter if that country is England or Spain or Luxembourg.

A country our size has to have a proper domestic setup to develop players up to the age of 21/22. Most other countries do. We don't. That's a huge issue.

Rovers in fairness to them are starting to put in a place a proper academy structure and they're starting to reap the benefits of that (as is the national team)

Dundalk, the other big side here at the moment, haven't put anything in place with their Euro millions and are now signing whatever random foreigners they can find. It's their money of course, and unlike most LoI sides they've actually earned it, but it's foundations of sand and will go nowhere in the medium term. Cork have already gone down that route it seems.

Every other country in Europe uses its domestic league to develop players for its national team. We don't. We instead have a 19th-century league structure which encourages big fish in small ponds. The league has no money, the FAI have no money, and the general public have no interest. While that stays, we're going to continue going backwards.

Sending players to Spain instead of England won't change that.

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I think its an interesting argument, dismissing Dundalk out of hand, i see two things potentially going along a path trying to reach similar goals but going about it differently. If the Americans are willing to stay in and dig in for 10 years, the marketing sides of things could reap benefits. They still need to invest of course in underage and playing structures, but i can see where they are going with it from a purely business model point of view.

Dundalk need to reach European groups in the next 3 years or their money is gone. It would have been gone this year only for a fortuituous qualification route. They have no business model other than trying to reach the groups. That's really not great.

Rovers' business model is based around selling players and reinvesting the proceeds. Same as lots of top teams around Europe. That's sustainable.

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Originally Posted by Bottle of Tonic

Ok, what a shjtshow. Should SK stay to save money and develop players etc or should FAI get some merchant in to maximise results in the short term and arrest decline?

The key to that question is answering where our rock bottom is? We have no god given right to be 2nd or 3rd seeds in group qualifying. Could we spiral to a level of 3rd/4th seeds and hope of major tournament qualification be as remote as ever? How bad does anyone know do our results have to be before we drop to the tier of Bulgaria, Hungary, Moldova etc???

If a drop to that level is imminent, then sorry you hire a Big Sam horses for courses merchant and arrest decline. Not talk about developing young lads as if international football is a project with a safety net and no long term negative outcomes.

I really wanted SK project to succeed. REALLY wanted it. But sorry, its gone.

Next step is huge. If SK can develop the squad without threat of us plummeting through the seedings then, provided players are on board, I'm happy. If any of that is at risk..... Adios

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What difference does "plummeting through the seedings" make once you're in Pot 3 anyway.

You think it's easier as a T3 team than T5?

As to whether it's the our worst ever result, having thought about it, I think the 1995 0-0 draw with Liechtenstein was similarly execrable.

So inevitable did victory seem that Jack didn't even bother to take charge of the first match, which we won 4-0 in Dublin, because he was scouting other opponents, and Setters was at the helm in his stead.

The 1996 European Championship Qualifiers was Liechtenstein's debut appearance in competitive competition, as well. The following year they conceded 11 at home to Macedonia.

Anyway last night's humiliation was certainly our worst home result in history.

Very quiet on here today. Some very sheepish lads I imagine, no one should feel embarrassed it's an opinions based forum!