Republic of Ireland v Finland - Wednesday, 14th October 2020 - UEFA Nations League

Listening to Mick repeatedly say how brilliant Hourihane and Brady are with set piece deliveries every game is driving me nuts already. 5 seconds later the balls hits the first man or floats into the opposition keepers arms.

Kenny is under pressure already, bonkers but he is. Harsh but that is how the crazy world of football works.

Senior international football is a big step up for most youngsters, it takes time for them to find their feet. This is why SK will need to persevere with Hourihane (woeful again) and Brady.

Going through the team:

The back 5 is solid. Happy enough with the depth there.

Central Midfield - always a problem area for us. I like Molumby but the other 2 spots are up for grabs.

Out wide - lack quality and other than McClean the rest do not chip in with goals

Up top - no goals whatsoever. McGoldrick is a good link up man but needs a 9 next to him. That would require a change in the 433. McGoldrick was playing CM at times against Wales which is a bloody waste of time.

Maguire will never be a decent international player. That first touch in the box in the 1st half is just not acceptable at this level.

I really hope I’m wrong but I think we are in for a horrendous 12 months. I just cannot see us scoring many goals.

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Originally Posted by shakermaker1982

I really hope I’m wrong but I think we are in for a horrendous 12 months. I just cannot see us scoring many goals.

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While this may well be true, it's worth noting that it's just an extension of the last three years really.

Four goals in nine games in 2018, one of those in a 4-1 defeat.

Seven goals in eight games in Euro 2020 qualifying in a group where we played Gibraltar twice.

Now this. It's a serious problem, but let's be clear that Martin O'Neill and Mick both had the exact same problems, so it's hardly a Kenny issue.

Its funny i was trying to find on the slovakia thread about saying we could go 480 mins and only having scored one goal. Thats exactly whats happened.

I wont take anymore educated guesses, for the health and wellbeing of us all. :

He was vilified by some, but Jason McAteer's point has only intensified in relevance. And let us not forget that McAteer played under Kerr.

Kenny really needed to get off to a half-decent start - and he hasn't....

We already know we don't have the players to play defensive hoofball all that effectively. Not to the point of reaching a finals anyway.

Kenny is trying something new, but it's looking like we don't have the players to play a more patient passing game effectively either.

More than anything, lack of any kind of threat at all in the final third is killing us. And the more obvious it becomes as to just how unlikely we are to score goals, the more teams will be willing to attack us.

Id be much more worried if we weren't creating any chances. We are so it makes me think we are right track

Definitely right not to play Cullen.

He would have exposed his poor delection in the play off game.

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Originally Posted by Trequartista20

We've just replaced McCarthy with Kenny, so that slightly undermines your presumed point. But whatever..

Mick won one of his first eight. But those were friendlies, and against some of the best teams in the world at the time: Russia, Czech Republic, Portugal, the Netherlands and Mexico amongst them. So that's not really an entirely direct nor particularly useful comparison.

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Not sure you understood the fairly simple point so here you go - managers sometimes start poorly as they try out players etc. Cant judge anyone until theyve had time to build. Lads are on here doing the usual pining for managers of times gone by. Mick had it far easier with friendlies and world class players in his team. Kenny was dropped into a ****storm of pressure and it only got worse with half the squad decimated over 3 games. Im not a fan of kenny but he needs time like any manager.

I see you referenced McAteer later on...christ....ill leave you to it so.

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Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

I only wish we'd gotten that MON instead of the MON we got.

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bet you werent saying that until denmark did us 5 1. the italy, germany, bosnia, wales and austria results in his first three years cant just be ignored

I was actually. I'm a Rovers fan. I knew full well how good Michael was and wasn't keen on Martin at all. I might have a few whatsapp agurments with the mates from back then to prove it to you!

We haven’t had a fully decent squad with really quality players since 2002.

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Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

I was actually. I'm a Rovers fan. I knew full well how good Michael was and wasn't keen on Martin at all. I might have a few whatsapp agurments with the mates from back then to prove it to you!

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Screenshots, or it never happened!

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Originally Posted by Fixer82

We haven’t had a fully decent squad with really quality players since 2002.

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Yet despite that we've managed to qualify for Euro 2012, Euro 2016 and make playoffs for World Cups in 2010 and 2018. We also, technically, made the playoffs for Euro2020/2021.

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Originally Posted by Fixer82

We haven’t had a fully decent squad with really quality players since 2002.

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To be fair, we did start ten premier league players, plus Duffy on loan from a PL team, against Slovakia

24 team Euros really help us in fairness. You can reach those without a "fully decent squad with really quality players"

A lot of over the top negativity. I think there are big question marks over Stephen making the step up because with all due respect to the League of Ireland, you are trying to go toe to toe tactically with experienced managers and top players. However, he is trying to change a style of play that was horrific to watch and while we're not exactly lovely to watch right now, it's a million times more watchable than other regimes. He deserves credit for that.

The next 12-18 months should be deemed as a chance to blood Bazunu, Knight, Molumby, O'Shea, Idah, Connolly and Parrott in every game. A few others as well. There is already a decent core of good players there like Seamus, Doherty, Egan, Stevens and Duffy so some good heads for a young team. I like Hourihane for Villa so I think he could offer something for us still. I've given up on Jeff and Brady.

We need to face facts that even very good Irish teams with experienced managers and several world class players couldn't make it to a world cup. It's not just getting through the Germanys of this world, it's getting through the Denmarks and Switzerlands as well most likely in a home and away playoff. We are a pot 3 team in name only - we are more akin to a pot 4 team in terms of quality. Far better to get this team with an exceptional bunch of young players battle hardened for qualifying for euro 24 and aiming to be a 2nd seed for the wc2026 draw in a few years than hoping against hope that we might blag a playoff by getting a poor or off form 2nd seed and a poor 4th seed. There is not a pot 2 team aside from maybe Slovakia if they get into that pot that I would currently fancy us taking more than one point off.

Mick McCarthy > some League Of Ireland fella > former player with no management experience to speak of > Big name European
(repeat)

So who's it going to be? Keane? Duff? O'Shea?

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

To be fair, we did start ten premier league players, plus Duffy on loan from a PL team, against Slovakia

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but no goal poacher. finding one would be a game changer imo.

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Originally Posted by jbyrne

but no goal poacher. finding one would be a game changer imo.

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Get the rosary beads out for Parrott

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

Yet despite that we've managed to qualify for Euro 2012, Euro 2016 and make playoffs for World Cups in 2010 and 2018. We also, technically, made the playoffs for Euro2020/2021.

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Yes this is the bit i dont like, for whatever reason Kenny seems to have a free reign regardless, every manager that had us at least got us to a playoff over the last 15 years. I think thats minimum criteria for a new manager really.

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Originally Posted by jbyrne

but no goal poacher. finding one would be a game changer imo.

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I disagree slightly, without us accommodating one that is, we'd need to change our formation/setup. We require all our front players to be busy in the current system and formation. If we had 3 finishers in the top 3 of which mcg/robinson/odowda/connolly(not yet anyway) are not then we wouldn't be on a 5(yes bulgaria) game barren run.

Much ado about Kenny. He's done okay with the hand served to him. Imo the goal in the NL was not to get relegated and that's still realistic.
Finland are clearly a better organised and together team than us and yet we could make it a 50/50 game, but lost out to a gifted goal.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

every manager that had us at least got us to a playoff over the last 15 years.

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stan and kerr didnt

Ya sorry, memory letting me down a bit hte last week. Slight exageratioin.

Are we in 2022 already? I was sure Kenny has only had control for 5 games now. This idea that he has free reign is a tab premature no? Should we judge him when he has had the chance to qualify for something? Or does he immediately get the sack for losing the playoff against Slovakia?

Not sure Stan got us to a playoff. Mick's last run at it would have failed if not for the rules change to the Nations League I think?

Bit of patience.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

To be fair, we did start ten premier league players, plus Duffy on loan from a PL team, against Slovakia

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Yes but how many of them are vital to their teams in Premiership?

Randolph is warming the bench most games.

Defensively we have very good players. Egan, Duffy, Doherty, Coleman and Stevens all top quality (ps who replaces Stevens if he gets injured??).

Midfield - Hourihane not essential to Villa. Hendrick playing with Newcastle. Not sure if he'll be there in two seasons.
Molumby coming through and looks good but still young.
Brady not always starting for Burnley.
McClean playing Championship football.
McCarthy is probably a big player for Palace when fit.
Arter playing Championship.
O'Dowda in Championship.
Horgan in Scotland.

Forwards wise I'd say McGoldrick is essential to Sheffield.
Robinson has started well with West Brom.
Connolly seems to start most games for Brighton which is good.
Long rarely starts for Southampton.
Idah...is he playing regularly for Norwich these days?
Parrott is on loan in Championship.
Maguire playing Championship.

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Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

Mick's last run at it would have failed if not for the rules change to the Nations League I think?

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We came third in the group, which is what got us to a play-off for Euro 2016 (which we won)

So it was just a different way of getting to the same thing

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Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

Not sure you understood the fairly simple point so here you go - managers sometimes start poorly as they try out players etc. Cant judge anyone until theyve had time to build. Lads are on here doing the usual pining for managers of times gone by. Mick had it far easier with friendlies and world class players in his team. Kenny was dropped into a ****storm of pressure and it only got worse with half the squad decimated over 3 games. Im not a fan of kenny but he needs time like any manager.

I see you referenced McAteer later on...christ....ill leave you to it so.

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I understood your point and countered it fine, in my view. It's entirely unoriginal and made by many. And if Kenny hadn't have resorted to the tried and failed, eg favouring Wycombe trier, Horgan, over Obafemi, Knight, et al, your argument would've carried a great deal more weight. As it is, he didn't.

McCarthy was a young manager in his thirties learning on the job in his first couple of campaigns; making a great many mistakes, yet still keeping us competitive when it mattered. Not the ideal figure to hold up when trying to make a positive case for Kenny.

What is it about McAteer, as a professional who played at the highest level, that negates his point?

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Originally Posted by Fixer82

Yes but how many of them are vital to their teams in Premiership?

Randolph is warming the bench most games.

Defensively we have very good players. Egan, Duffy, Doherty, Coleman and Stevens all top quality (ps who replaces Stevens if he gets injured??).

Midfield - Hourihane not essential to Villa. Hendrick playing with Newcastle. Not sure if he'll be there in two seasons.
Molumby coming through and looks good but still young.
Brady not always starting for Burnley.
McClean playing Championship football.
McCarthy is probably a big player for Palace when fit.
Arter playing Championship.
O'Dowda in Championship.
Horgan in Scotland.

Forwards wise I'd say McGoldrick is essential to Sheffield.
Robinson has started well with West Brom.
Connolly seems to start most games for Brighton which is good.
Long rarely starts for Southampton.
Idah...is he playing regularly for Norwich these days?
Parrott is on loan in Championship.
Maguire playing Championship.

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Horgan is playing for Wycombe rather than in Scotland.

In your defence of Kenny, to make your point stick, what you really have to effectively argue is that we have greatly inferior resources, playing at a lower level to Finland. I don't think you have done that.. Nor to Bulgaria and Slovakia for that matter.

I do worry about Kenny. His 'so called' nice football seems to me to be the worst type of nice football. Passing it around for no other reason than just to keep possession. It reminds me of Arsenal at their worst during the last year or so of Wenger's reign whereby they almost needed to pass it into the net to score. There is no urgency when we win possession in the opponents half to quickly break forward.

We are often all too happy to instead play a sideways or backwards pass and on numerous occasions I noticed the ball going all the way back to the central defenders or goalkeeper from promising positions when we won possession. Any sniff of a chance is then long gone.

He also has to take some responsibility for persisting with Hourihane for every game when I can't think of anything constructive he has done other than a few nice touches in the initial Bulgarian game. Since then he's been anonymous.

Anyway he's had a shocking start as far as I'm concerned but we need to give him the next campaign and see how it goes. The LOI heads defending Kenny to the hilt need to remember that Finland recently lost 5-1 to Poland and their best player is a journeyman striker who has been playing in the lower leagues of Europe for his entire career. Think a Finnish Daryl Murphy and you wouldn't be far off.

Does anyone remember our possession stats against England in Stuttgart? Or against Italy in New York?

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Originally Posted by eekers

If in the event the November internationals being cancelled because of the second wave in Europe. And if the world cup draw goes ahead as scheduled December without any further internationals then:

A win against Finland will get us guarantee us 2nd seeds:
Ireland (21st) would be on 1482.44 points, the most Slovakia(20nd) currently on 1,476.9 points would be able to get by beating Israel is 1,481.49.

A Draw for both Ireland and Slovakia would put Ireland on 1474.94 and Slovakia on 1,473.99.
In the case of these two draws. Only Iceland could overtake both Ireland and Slovakia by beating Belgium at home leaving them on 1,475.76.

If both Ireland and Slovakia lose. Ireland would be on 1467.44 ahead of Slovakia on 1,466.49.
But Northern Ireland could finish on 1,473.54 by beating Norway away.
Iceland could finish on 1,468.26 by drawing with Belgium at home.
Romania could finish on 1,470.28 by beating Austria at home.

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Good news lads. Israel just came back from being 2-0 down to beat Slovakia 3-2.
Northern Ireland, Iceland and Romania all lost too.
We are now the 20th ranked UEFA nation.
So as it stands we are second seeds going into the World draw with the November international still to come before that.

I'm still not sure you did but we can move on from that. It was a very basic point around judging any manager too rashly over 5 games and specifically judging Kenny vs McCarthy when they both started poorly. It's probably unoriginal because people have to keep bringing it up!

You're saying he resorted to the tried and failed? Can't agree with that at all. Did you not see the matchday squad get torn apart in the space of a week? Did you not see Knight, Molumby, OShea, Connolly, Idah, Curtis etc getting involved? You're posting as if Horgan was his first choice and you mention Knight who actually played today. This Obafemi nonsense has to stop as well. He's a young kid, completely unproven at international level and he did nothing for the 21s yesterday. He will get his chance when he is ready.

Who would you have picked today out of interest? What is he specifically doing wrong? Personally I think his subs were iffy but otherwise probably got the teams right.

On McAteer - it's that despite playing the game at the highest level, he's also a clown who says things to stay relevant without doing any real thinking.

I think we really need to see more dynamism and interchanging from our front three. We are far too static in terms of the movement up front.

A lot of the criticism here is on the midfield and like many I’m skeptical in particular of Hourihane’s contribution from open play.

That said, the front three are not mixing it up enough. We need to at times have two or three of the attackers overload to one side to create more 3 v 3 or 2 v 2 situations. The wide attackers also need to switch positions at times or run directly across the back line, dragging their markers with them.

This destabilizes the defence if fullbacks have to follow their mark to the other side of the pitch. Alternatively if defenders try to hand off markers, sometimes a gap in communication occurs and that player is now unmarked, even briefly.

In brief, the movement from our attacking three remains too predictable and that needs to change.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

We came third in the group, which is what got us to a play-off for Euro 2016 (which we won)

So it was just a different way of getting to the same thing

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That's complicated, requires a bit of untangling.

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Originally Posted by eekers

Good news lads. Israel just came back from being 2-0 down to beat Slovakia 3-2.
Northern Ireland, Iceland and Romania all lost too.
We are now the 20th ranked UEFA nation.
So as it stands we are second seeds going into the World draw with the November international still to come before that.

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Nice, some good news, we seem to do better at things when its taken out of our hands :D

But the playoffs for the other teams in the Euro playoffs can push them ahead again. Lets hope for no november internationals :D

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Originally Posted by youngirish

I do worry about Kenny. His 'so called' nice football seems to me to be the worst type of nice football. Passing it around for no other reason than just to keep possession. It reminds me of Arsenal at their worst during the last year or so of Wenger's reign whereby they almost needed to pass it into the net to score. There is no urgency when we win possession in the opponents midfield to quickly break forward.

We are often all too happy to instead play a sideways or backwards pass and on numerous occasions I noticed the ball going all the way back to the central defenders or goalkeeper from promising positions when we won possession. Any sniff of a chance is then long gone.

He also has to take some responsibility for persisting with Hourihane for every game when I can't think of anything constructive he has done other than a few nice touches in the initial Bulgarian game. Since then he's been anonymous.

Anyway he's had a shocking start as far as I'm concerned but we need to give him the next campaign and see how it goes. The LOI heads defending Kenny to the hilt need to remember that Finland recently lost 5-1 to Poland and their best player is a journeyman striker who has been playing in the lower leagues of Europe for his entire career. Think a Finnish Daryl Murphy and you wouldn't be far off.

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We showed urgency twice today, but that was the first i'd noticed over the 3 games ,one was the quick free kick from hourihane and another was a quick throw. I could not fathom in the slovakia game why we kept slowing things down when we were winning frees and throws giving them a chance to gegroup. its clearly a tactic and it doesnt make any sense to me.

Ya Arsenal became very uncreative during that time.

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Originally Posted by geysir

That's complicated, requires a bit of untangling.

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Welcome to UEFA!

Mick didn't get a play-off spot because of the Nations League changes. He did what MON did the previous time to earn a spot (ie come third in the group)

Being against the manager is the safest position a supporter can adopt. No matter when you adopt it you will almost always be proven right in the end.

I wouldn't listen to scatter brained, self absorbed hurlers on the ditch like Paul o shea in this instance. And associated whingers gone blind or amnesiac to the utter dross we witnessed the last 4 years where we scored phuck all while creating nothing in the line of chances against beaver homes league level Gibraltar and Georgia.

I'm certainly no tiki taka man, never have been, and despise the trend of keepers passing it short no matter what but bloody hell if you cannot see that we are playing more football now than ever and are creating clear cut chances that we never did before then you are a blind man, and that's the polite description.

As a caveat I will say I am generally a mix it up merchant who is inclined towards percentage football and I have no skin in the loi game so no biased in that respect either.

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Originally Posted by Bottle of Tonic

Being against the manager is the safest position a supporter can adopt. No matter when you adopt it you will almost always be proven right in the end.

I wouldn't listen to scatter brained, self absorbed hurlers on the ditch like Paul o shea in this instance. And associated whingers gone blind or amnesiac to the utter dross we witnessed the last 4 years where we scored phuck all while creating nothing in the line of chances against beaver homes league level Gibraltar and Georgia.

I'm certainly no tiki taka man, never have been, and despise the trend of keepers passing it short no matter what but bloody hell if you cannot see that we are playing more football now than ever and are creating clear cut chances that we never did before then you are a blind man, and that's the polite description.

As a caveat I will say I am generally a mix it up merchant who is inclined towards percentage football and I have no skin in the loi game so no biased in that respect either.

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Well said sir. Good to see someone cutting through some of the BS posted tonight