But that's exactly it. Spain/Gibraltar, Armenia/Azerbaijan - we're far from unique in having a local row.
UEFA won't give a tiny league on the edge of Europe an extra European spot just because they've come up with a new league format.
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But that's exactly it. Spain/Gibraltar, Armenia/Azerbaijan - we're far from unique in having a local row.
UEFA won't give a tiny league on the edge of Europe an extra European spot just because they've come up with a new league format.
I'm probably being ridiculously optimistic, which is in short supply I know, but with EL2 something could be worked out. 2 domestic CL slots and if either win this Golden round the next non European qualiifier gets a berth. Or if the domestic champions dont win the final round then that place is awarded to the top side. In general I dont think we are decades away from European Leagues being formed anyway. UEFA are firefighting to keep top clubs happy with the CL closed shop to prevent a break away and the number of clubs involved in some European comps are growing. Same with internationl football expansion - generating more and more money is certainly an undertone of this trend. It's concievable to have a Nordic League or even a Celtic League in due course as smaller leagues are pushed aside and need to strengthen their stock. In saying all of this I dont expect this attempt at some AIL to succeed.
I think optimistic is right.
EL2 is giving no extra European spots as it stands anyway. I think that says it all about the chances of the King of the Island tournament getting a bonus European spot. EL2 was a great chance to give every country one extra European spot.
From that I understand, it looks like the European places got LOI and IL would remain the same as they are at the moment. There’s no basis for us to be given an extra spot, let’s try get the current teams we have competing to get further in the qualifiers first!
That would be a pretty perverse incentive to leagues and to clubs though.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
So what would happen if Linfield won the Irish League and the King of the Island. If it delivered no extra European slot, then that would arguably be a de-facto 'loss' of a slot to the north. And it would remove one of the big benefits of the whole competition - i.e. money, via Europe. Or if winning it guaranteed a slot to someone or league, then the north would be expected to give up a European slot under that scenario. But who to - as Linfield would already have one ?
If Institute finished 8th in the Irish League but won the King of the Island - who would they take a European slot from ? Especially if it's like now, at a time when the IL only has 3 European slots ? They can't take it off the champions or the cup-winners realistically. So presumably the team finishing 2nd in the league would lose a European slot to the team that finished 8th in the league, because that team won a cup tournament that included clubs outside of that league. It's mixing two unrelated qualification streams.
I can't see how that would all make sense. And why would the top clubs in the north or south back this, given that if anyone had to sacrifice a European slot they'd otherwise get then it would realistically be them ? It just all seems too messy.
Agree that UEFA are unlikely to give us an extra European slot just because we ask. Those things are worth a lot of money these days, and increasingly so. How could they justify to the other 50 or so nations in Europe giving just one extra out, and to us ? The rest of Europe doesn't give a sh'it about our intractable struggles and the theory that football might magically help resolve them.
I'm not entirely sure your reading of it is correct tbh.
If Linfield won the IL and the KOTI, then there would be no loss of a European spot. Linfield would be in the CL and the other spots would go to the IL teams as per their usual way of doing things. Effectively KOTI doesn't carry a European spot in this instance.
If Stute finished 8th in the IL and won KOTI - then assuming the IL is back up to four teams soon, it's not really much different to the current situation where the team in seventh can win a play-off and get into Europe at the expense of the team in third. I don't think that's a huge deal - what has third place won? If the final European spot can be used to generate a bit more excitement around the league, I say go for it.
It's also quite difficult for Stute to win KOTI from eighth in the league as the points carry across. With the IL down to three European spots, it's a bit trickier - though I guess the argument would be that if the IL is that weak, then realistically a side outside the top two isn't going to win KOTI.
There's no sacrificing of a European spot anywhere, so that's one less reason not to back it at least. (And worth noting that there's no suggestion any European spots accrue from KOTI at the moment)
Working title or not I've already taken a dislike to the proposal simply for its muck name, KOTI doesnt make me cringe quite so much (thanks Stu). Petty but this would all need to be a slamdunk and even the working title has people switching off.
No (even minimal potential) European slot means that there has to be a serious financial package in place added to TV money to pique any interest. Its been admitted that there have only been expressions of interest so unless someone with deep pockets can start things off initially with a pledge of financing then its dead in the water if it ever had a chance. It is also a strange choice of timing when people are struggling to get their own leagues going again. Maybe they thought that needing to adapt the existing season schedules was an opportunity, or the lack of football would get people taking about a new proposal with media outlets screaming out for content, but a misjudgement I feel. It's convoluted enough as it is never mind at a time that clubs are particularly just hanging on at the moment and that's with the context of the financial norms of LoI//IL
Timings purely coincidental, they've been saying this was coming around now for ages now sure. Putting together all that information in one place and consulting parties involved doesn't just happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
Well maybe they should have held the release back a bit, but I suspect they thought the timing had some advantages over a delay - it hasnt worked out that way.
I don't know. Now's the best time for big changes such as to seasons. Even the big leagues have been talking about maybe giving a summer season a go. And lots of Irish clubs will be interested in talk of "more money" too (although it's far less likely to arrive now I think)
I think it's all pie in the sky, but it's not the worst time for pie in the sky
Releasing it now has absolutely no problems with it, what hasn't worked out about it? There's literally no problems with releasing it now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
Delaying releasing it indefinitely until this is all over because of absolutely no reason would just be idiotic from a business perspective or any perspective really.
I'd put any amount of money on that if they hadn't released it you be here saying something like "we haven't heard anything from them in a while, must be struggling to get everything together, not a good sign"
Damned if they do damned if they don't.
The last line is the only part of your post that is not debatable, as yes it is likely that some people would be of the opinion that Stu alluded to, that this is the perfect time with a change in season being forced upon leagues and even that there will be available column inches to discuss the proposal. What hasnt worked out about it? Well what has? Its has achieved nothing bar more questions and almost widespread rejection. If you say to have revealed the report would have been idiotic so be it. I say that that timing is off as everyone in football is preoccupied and it maybe if they wanted to guage a response from clubs then this may not be the the prime time. But it is all a matter of opinin, and both opinions are valid not 'idiotic' either way.
The timing for implemention could be right when leagues return due to the need to changing a league schedule. It would have been a folly to put out the proposal, maybe to take advantage of the disruption, if it is short on key info and it is short on the most important issue of finance! It has moved on from a template for discussion, or you seem to imply so RH, but all I see is a proposal that needs more discussion and preperation. Few clubs, if any, will just take a leap of faith.
You do know the whole report is based on feedback from clubs? They've already got that, publishing this is purely to keep the public in the loop. That's all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop
Yes I do know, and as the report 'has been coming for ages' what difference would some additional time make, waiting for a calmer and less complex period, for the report to be issued as 'all' the information is in one place after consultation with parties involved done? Particularly as the report is still missing the most important component! It is my opinion that the public dont care about this currently, many clubs likely dont either. So releasing a report that will need goodwill and a positive response may have been released at an inappropriate time.Quote:
Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop
Because this is the stage that they said they'd update the public once they reached it. If they didn't you'd have speculation and people saying that they were trying to hide something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
What component exactly do you think is missing?
The fact you and other people are even talking about it, read the document and watched the videos says the public does care about it. The fact you're posting about it just goes to prove that point.
The report doesn't need goodwill or a positive response at all, because ultimately Dave from Dundalk doesn't get a say and this is a proposal that all the clubs have looked into and like.
The only negative feedback I've seen is lack of European place for joint league winner, something the clubs have 100% already brought up, the name, which is a placeholder, the fact its complicated, which is probably just more down to the fact its new, when it's explained better they probably won't think it is, and the lack of secured money which is a stupid criticism at this stage.
A stupid comment? Finances are what will drive this project without European incentive and without somthing concrete financially, its a premature report. I and others on this forum have been talking about it, maybe other LoI fora also but that hardly is an example that the public care. If the floating fan, sporting media et al are are engaged in this then yes it is a work in progress working - you and I debating it as already dyed in the wool supporters is hardly proof of the general engagement with the idea. Only negative feedbak is on European places? I cant speak for others but there are added criticisms. So all clubs have looked at this and liked, doesnt need goodwill or a positive response? Beyond support for SRFC do you have a vested interest in this? Maybe they shouldnt have gone public until it could be explained properly !
No it really isnt. Not having the information you want isn't the same as being premature. It doesn't have financial information because how are they supposed to secure funding based on an idea alone? Hard enough to get people to invest in LOI never mind with nothing more than, "look i haven't talked to the clubs or associations but will you give me money for something that needs their approval?". Join us in the real world if you think that's how things work. This is what they bring to potential investors to show them something concrete so they invest. The report pretty clearly states that all this is dependent on funding so its not as if they're just ignoring itQuote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
No matter when this was released people outside LOI circles weren't going to be discussing it and nor do they need to because that's not what this is for at this stage.Quote:
I and others on this forum have been talking about it, maybe other LoI fora also but that hardly is an example that the public care. If the floating fan, sporting media et al are are engaged in this then yes it is a work in progress working - you and I debating it as already dyed in the wool supporters is hardly proof of the general engagement with the idea.
Not what I said but okay....Quote:
Only negative feedback is on European places? I cant speak for others but there are added criticisms.
The clubs have looked at it and liked it, and it doesn't need a positive response from random people that just glance at it to progress. Not sure why you tried to group these together. I suspect you still haven't grasp the concept that this isn't for the clubs to look at, its just to keep fans in the loop.Quote:
So all clubs have looked at this and liked, doesnt need goodwill or a positive response?
No, I just have some semblance of an idea as to how these things work.Quote:
Beyond support for SRFC do you have a vested interest in this?
It has been explained properly, just people think differently and need things explained in different ways to understand them fully. The way it has been explained is perfect for some people which is obvious from the fact that some people understand it perfectly.Quote:
Maybe they shouldnt have gone public until it could be explained properly !
An example would be the NFL. You could go get a perfectly intelligent 40 year old person that doesn't watch NFL and try explain how the NFL works to them and they'd be confused, whereas you could go to America, pluck a 10 year old that likes the NFL out of class and they could explain how it works in detail no problem because they've been immersed in it, the format makes sense tot he clubs who've had the opportunity to ask questions to help wrap their heads around it and that's all that matters.
https://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...-39181220.html
Get back on your spaceship!!
Haha good one, realise you're wrong so resorts to (very poor) insults
Not at all, I simply got bored! If I insulted you or looked like I was deflecting with an insult I apologise as Id be sparring with the best on that!
Interesting perspective.
This bit caught my eye:
The Brandywell outfit encouraged the respective associations and clubs to carefully study to Lucid's proposal, adding that "professional football is a sport, but it is also a business".
Considering DCFC came within an ace of going bust in 2000, then did so in 2009, needed major public money to upgrade the Brandywell and are only competing at present thanks to the generosity of a benefactor, they've not been "taking care of business" very well themselves before now.
I think very few clubs if any both North & South have much to crow about.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
The deciding factor in this may be the attitude of the FAI & IFA.
No doubt. But this was DCFC's statement, not anyone elses.Quote:
Originally Posted by disgruntled
That and Lucid's ability to come up with some hard cash from somewhere, rather than vague promises.Quote:
Originally Posted by disgruntled
A nonsense that the IFA & the FAI have agreed to jointly examine the report. That is completely untrue.
Also, it's already been well covered, here and elsewhere, that what is being portrayed in regards prize money, is absolute rubbish.
A reminder
Attachment 2843
Wow!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Parker
A reminder what DCFC were claiming:
"It always shocks fans when they discover that the prize money for winning the League in the north is £22,000 and in the southern league the prize money is €110,000."
Versus reality:
IL Net Prize money 2018/19: £372k
LOI Net Prize Money 2019: £150k (GBP conversion)
IL Net Prize Money 2019/20: £397k
Unless there is something missing from the above figures, then it demonstrates just how Delaney was taking the ****.
Wow, very surprised by this. I think the LOI contribution fees have been permanently axed. They're quite unpopular...
Well yeah that's sorta their whole point... that the current format isn't working and clubs are going bust so change is needed. They're not saying that they're a model to follow in the business side of things, if anything they're saying look we're an example of how hard it is to run a club in this island let's work together and fix that.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
So when you can't/won't operate the present system properly, you just throw it out for a new, untested system instead?Quote:
Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop
Who's to say they'll do any better in the new Utopia?
And exactly what was so wrong with "living within your means"?
I'm not opposed to an AIL in principle - quite the opposite, in fact.
But DCFC are like some 18 y.o. who's keeps pranging the battered old VW Polo his dad bought him for his first car throwing the head up and demanding to be given a brand new Mercedes SL instead - what could possibly go wrong?
My advice would be to demonstrate you can drive safely in what you have before being let loose with something with a lot more oomph.
(Same applies to all clubs, both sides of the border)
Not only do those figures demonstrate a huge difference in contributions, but the quote of £22k as first prize also needs explained. What The NIFL clubs have agreed is that because 1st place now gets such a large UEFA payment, that the money for that position has been well reduced in order to give more money to the clubs further down the ladder.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
If it was one club making a loss you might have a point about it being an individual problem. When nearly every club in the league is running that's a problem with the system.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
To even try suggest that the whole set up of the LOI in particular isn't at fault for a large proportion of the problems clubs in the league face is sheer ignorance.
To borrow your car analogy, it's more like trying to drive with a dodgy accelerator, yes it's possible to do but it's not exactly easy and you'd really rather the problem gets fixed to say the least.
Cheap shot aside : are you disagreeing with what they're actually saying ?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Agree with this. The system is wrong. Is any club in the LOI top tier genuinely sustainable ? And if they are (e.g. Sligo may claim to be), will they remain in that tier for much longer ?Quote:
Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop
Ealing Green's comments just read like repeated pot shots at Derry City. Ironic given that after years of being a financial basket case, Glentoran is itself now also benefitting from/reliant upon benefaction.
Blaming the "system", like blaming the car is a cop-out.Quote:
Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop
The problem is quite simple: too many clubs gambling on success by spending money they didn't have.
The IL had this problem a decade or more ago, but in the end they (and the IFA) took ownership of the problem, introduced new rules/procedures and implemented them. As a result, clubs are now largely solvent (if skint!).
I'm disagreeing with the implication of what they're saying, namely that it is somehow inherently and structurally impossible for any LOI club to operate within their means in the present set-up.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Some clubs do so, even if many do not.
P.S. It is hardly "cheap" to point out simple, undeniable facts from the public record.
Where was I factually incorrect about DCFC?Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
As for Glentoran, like DCFC they engaged in a financial arms race to try to keep up (with Linfield) and "buy" success etc.
But unlike DCFC, they never went bust, they never walked away from unpaid bills and they cleared their debts (partly by selling land which they owned). On the contrary, they did what it took to get the club back on an even keel even when the team on the pitch was suffering and all without receiving any public money to rebuild their stadium, or with European prize money.
So that with the mess having now been cleared up as much by by the club itself as this new investor, there is no valid comparison with the financial mismanagement at the Brandywell.
Of course, with the new regime's plans to take the club to the next level (f-t status), it may turn out that this is just the next arms race - who knows?
But as my dear old mother would have said: "Let me fall before you catch me".
Right we'll take the wheels off your car and it'll be your fault when you can't make it drive anywhere, because that's what you've just said.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
That's not what's happening because even the clubs not gambling on success and being as frugal as possible are running at a loss or very near to it.
So if Glentoran came out a decade ago and said something needs to change you would have told them to shut up because it's all their own fault?
When you answer bear in mind I have just quoted you saying yourself that changing the system in place helped improve the clubs solvency.
Being factually correctly means absolutely **** all let's be honest, I could hand pick facts about just about anything to suit any narrative I wanted.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
You do know that the Brandywell is and alway has been owned by the council? It's a complicated agreement in fairness but the bottom line is that Derry City Council own the land.
If the problem is the car, then fix it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop
If the problem is the driver, then drive more carefully.
And until you do, don't just complain that driving anywhere is impossible, so that someone should give you a new car and a new motorway to drive it on, no further questions asked.
Glentoran accepted they'd screwed up and went back to living within their means in order to clear up their own mess.Quote:
Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop
Over and above that, they and the other senior clubs, in conjunction with the IFA, worked hard to reform the system to make it work.
They didn't just throw their hands up and blame everyone else.