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That reminded me lots of Spurs vs Juventus at Wembley in the CL this year. Spurs were coasting but the difference in experience, technique and sheer know-how told for Juventus when it mattered. Croatia's players had all been there and done that over their careers, and they did it again. Being behind by one goal was nothing to them. They got on the ball, used it well and fought hard. England were never the same after half time but I think a second goal in the first half would have been enough.
I wonder if there will be some serious introspection of why England failed, or if they'll all be swept away by this "Things can only get better" sentiment I'm reading everywhere. There will be less Panama's and more Croatia's in two years. They've undoubtedly over-achieved in terms of final placing, but the best team they beat without the need for penalties was a pedestrian Sweden. I suppose just about anything was better than 2014 and 2016.
Part of me (a small part) wanted a France vs England Final with all the old animosities between the two coming to the fore. It would have been riveting viewing. Now at least I know who I'll be up for in the Final, although despite being on the easier side of the draw, Croatia hasn't managed to beat anyone (including our friends, Denmark) in 90 minutes in the knock-out stages. Flattering to deceive perhaps but then again they had good group wins over Argentina and Nigeria. They were pretty hopeless in the first half and gave away a lot of needless free kicks. Was the second half more to do with England doing an Ireland (i.e. sitting back on a lead) or Croatian dominance ? I wouldn't be optimistic for them but they are dogged and if still within one of France with 20 to go, I wouldn't rule them out but France have to be hot favourites. I agree with Stutts. I don't find the latter boring. I have enjoyed their games but I do think Giroud is overrated. I saw him play for Arsenal in 2015 in a League Cup match against Sheff Wed and he was hopeless. Ok, a bit much to judge him on the basis of one game and looking at Wikipedia, his strike rate is excellent but I think he has been in decline for a few years now (put your money on a hat-trick for him :) in the Final).
I have enjoyed the World Cup, albeit it's mostly the evening games I've seen. Slightly worried about the drop of goals from open play but that's probably just a phase. Disappointed that the African countries by and large set up ultra defensively when they were better than that. Well done to Japan for their attacking play. Brazil favourites despite not having won in Europe since 1958 ?? Baffling. Not as much feigning injury (Neymar aside) as in previous tournaments. VAR by and large a success.
Was I the only one watching the 3rd/4th place play off? The English weren't bothered at all, which makes it even weirder that Southgate played most of the first team. Hazard's goal was decent. Obviously Belgium thought playing for third had some merit.
Nah, I watched it too.
I thought it typified a pedestrian England performance in the tournament tbh. They played well for a game and a half in the groups, but outside of that they were relying almost exclusively on set pieces and a solid defence. A typical Set Piece Athletic performance. Effective, helped by a handy draw (including Rodriguez missing for Colombia), but dull to watch. I imagine expectations now are for a last four spot in Euro 2020 or better, but I think if the underachievers - Spain, Italy, Germany, Holland - can get back on track in the next two years, there was nothing really to indicate that England have improved that significantly to threaten at the next Euros.
Predictions?
2-1 France for me, AET.
I would love to see Croatia win. I think it would be great for other smaller nations.
And I think they can. I'll go for 2-1 Croatia.
Delighted with that Perisic rocket, since I was worried this would be the World Cup decided by a dive.
Very very harsh penalty in my opinion. I don't think it could be viewed as being hand to ball (as in, the player deliberately moving his hand into the path of the ball), so then it's a question of the hand being in an unnatural position, which I don't think it was.
And coming back to VAR, I don't think it constitutes a clear and obvious error.
Is that the question the ref asks himself as he watches the replay - 'did I initially make a clear and obvious error which should be overturned?' Or does he disregard his initial decision and just ask 'is this a penalty or not?'
Seen them given, seen them not. It's definitively ball to hand and prevents the ball being in front of the goal. The ref had every angle and replay he needed to decide.
I think it would constitute a reviewable decision regardless, once the VAR informed the ref of the missed contact.
I thought it was more a penalty than not. There's a waving hand motion which you could argue is an intent to try get some bit of a block the ball. The flick didn't change the direction of the ball that much.
That said, the first goal shouldn't have stood, and the question now is when does VAR start reviewing those decisions?
Only the second time since 1986 that both sides have scored in the World Cup Final. First own goal to be scored in a final too. Appropriate for this World Cup that all three goals have come from set pieces.
Dunphy arguing that Griezmann was fouled, but it seems clear to me he's going over before the contact.
Yeah, exactly when Dunphy said "He was fouled", Griezemann clearly dived. Dunphy just talks ****e.
Game over? Croatia have dominated possession this half but the first chance France got, Pogba buries it after getting two bites at the cherry.
All over, yep.
Subasic poor for the last two.
France definitely deserved winners.
Arguably puts another dampener on England's performance
Literally Lloris' first foot wrong in the tournament. Might be a game in this yet, maybe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter
For me the issue is whether the decision not to give one initially constitutes a clear and obvious error.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
If we have seen them given and not, that doesn't really constitute such an error for me.
But obviously people on here and elsewhere think it was more of a penalty than I do in the first place, so I'll let it be.
France worthy winners overall, played some good football along the way. Didn't think they were brilliant in the final, were lucky to be ahead at half-time in my opinion, but finished off the match professionally in the second half, with only a Lloris blunder making any kind of game of it.
Croatia should be very proud of themselves though, hopefully they get the homecoming they deserve.
So now that we've seen VAR in all its glory - and let's take it in conjunction with the Irish underage keeper who was sent off in that penalty shootout a couple of months ago versus the numerous keepers who 'strayed' off their line for penalties in this tournament and the horiffic performance of the referee in this final - it is fair to say that FIFA's application of the rules is a resounding success wouldn't you say?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Excellent final, the best I've ever watched. France the best team over the 90, but I did appreciate Croatia's refusal to sink. Pogba again, very under-stadedly good in midfield.
A very enjoyable tournament for the most part, especially after a tentative and uninspiring first round of fixtures. The knock-outs were tonnes of fun, UEFA teams excelled, I think VAR has silenced some doubters and it was a tournament with plenty of stories, teams playing above their level and some really tense enthralling matches. Modric was my player of the tournament, with Hazard a close second.
Not entirely sure what your point is? I don't think it's fair to call the refereeing performance horrific at all. Maybe not the best of the tournament, but far from horrific.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
Agree with other comments; France worthy winners of a very good and open final, Croatia can be rightly proud. Argentina maybe slightly happier; they gave France the best game in the knock outs.
Not a classic tournament overall; too many ultra-defensive performances. But an enjoyable month all the same. International football is a far more level field than the club game, and what it lacks in quality, it makes up for in drama and meaning.
If I was to suggest one rule change after it, it'd be a time clock for subs. 15 seconds to get off, or play continues with you down to ten men till the next stoppage. The clock could easily appear on the sub board.
They'll want to wrap this up quick, before everyone in the stadium drowns.
VAR failed when it was most needed. Griezman clearly dived and VAR missed it. Pogba was offside and interfering with play for the opening goal. VAR missed that also. It was as bad as Henry's double hand ball against us. I've also heard quite a few claim that the penalty should never have been awarded and I agree - it was ball to hand rather than hand to ball. VAR saw it differently however, but we have seen a million of those given the other way. For me Croatia were the better team - goalkeeper aside.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter
VAR doesn't apply to free kicks. It can't be said to have failed in that regard.
Agree on the offside. But France were better overall because you can't just ignore the keeper. Also ultimately, how many saves did Lloris make?
At least we never have to hear the Maroon 5 ad again.
Very few to be honest.
Hey on another note, can you answer me the following question.
I thought countries with populations of 4 million were not allowed to play an expansive and technical game like Croatia did in this tournament.
How come they are allowed to play that way and we are not?
On the controversial incidents, the referee reviewed the hand ball and gave a penalty. That's what VAR is there for. I thought it was hand to ball rather than the other way round. There is a slight downward movement of the hand towards the ball.
On the foul leading up to the goal, whether he was going down or not (and who is to know whether he would have stayed up), there was contact and it looked a foul to me. However, the offside player did interfere with play so the goal should not have stood.
Croatia has some nice approach play, aided by one of the best players in the world of course, but their crossing was terrible and I am not sure how often the French keeper was tested. France pretty much won without getting out of second gear, except for the spell where they scored two in the second half (thought the Croat keeper might have done better for the second of those). France look like one of those teams who can coast but when needs be (e.g. Argentina), can raise their game to the required level.
I'd say a few Russians are off to the Gulags: (a) Pitch invaders, (b) Those who allowed them on the pitch and (c) the umbrella coordinator who was painfully slow to get the umbrella for all the dignitaries (they made sure Putin was first looked after).
Ref was put in a hard position once it was referred imho. I don't think it was a penalty myself but I don't think it was a terrible decision to give it. I saw two refs on Twitter (Dermot Gallagher and Grahaom Poll). DG said no pen, Poll said definite pen. VAR works best on black and white incidents, not subjective judgment calls. I think there were 3 precedents in this WC: Penalty to Australia (?) against Denmark - bad decision. Penalty to Iran against Portugal - bad decision. No penalty against Argentina vs Nigeria - right decision. The penalty yesterday was more of a penalty than the ones which were (wrongly in my opinion) awarded to Iran and Australia.
Let's say that was against us in a big match. We'd all be screaming for handball! I think it's that it was such a full contact with the hand that affected the flight of the ball that made the ref's mind up.
I think the Griezmann free was soft but I think he might have had his lower shin clipped. I need to see a reliable replay again. He was looking for it, but looking to draw a foul is OK by me.
I'm actually very surprised there was no VAR review of Pogba being offside when the resulting free was struck. He was clearly active - he came from behind and challenged Mandzukic for the ball - and Mandzukic wouldn't have felt compelled to get a touch if Pogba wasn't there.
I like the idea of P-Stu's sub rule. I'd like to see the option of an additional 2 minutes being given to the non-offending team's captain if an opponent is booked for time-wasting. It's usually a goalie taking a goal kick too slowly late in a game.
Lessons for Ireland from Croatia? Well, the usual "at least they have a functional FA" argument doesn't hold here. Nor does the facilities argument.
Johann Cruyff once said that a country that doesn't excel at hockey will never excel at football. I see his point. Hockey is about crisp passing and good team movement on and off the ball. Croatia also excels at Basketball and Water Polo. Same logic applies here. In each of these you build back to front and you rarely bypass the middle of the "pitch".
In Ireland our favourite sports involve long balls, for the most part. GAA and rugby crowds don't really tolerate slow, patient play either. I effing hate seeing Conor Murray and his incessant box kicking. It works though and the crowd go mad for the excitement of who'll win the ball in the air. They also cheer a good hoof up the pitch into touch from a dangerous position. I can see exactly why, but this culture is wholly at odds with what a successful football culture entails.
I think we're going the right way - especially if our U17s style of play is anything to go by - but it's a long journey. I think the WC shows though that football still catches the public's imagination and I have a bit of a feeling that the public is now finally realising that a 'sinn fein' culture is required: we must do it by ourselves. Average players are being bought by EPL teams for 30 and 40 million. it's just so far removed from the reality of the game in Ireland. I like to think think that people will see the connection with local support, volunteering, coaching, good practice on the sidelines etc will lead to a continued improvement.
I think the middle ground between schoolboy clubs and the professional game is being filled better domestically and I'm hopeful that projects like Rovers' at Saggart will be fruitful soon. This Bazunu kid, for example, sounds amazing.