Was it similar to McClean v Italy? Minimal contact last night for me. Very soft.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Was it similar to McClean v Italy? Minimal contact last night for me. Very soft.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Long and Walters were brutal, we do really need goals to start coming from every player.
Serbia were atrocious lads apart from the wings. You wouldn't have spotted on tele, but they were at 6s and 7s and couldnt organise themselves off the ball at all, ivanovic has no excuse here really, before the ball was played in for the offside goal we had 3 free men, no one picking them up. It was criminal that we still stayed offside, as they had so much space and time to move around. Their keeper was brutal.
I have not seen as bad a team organised defensively as they were, or a keeper as dodgy as theirs was. It's two points dropped. Even though the pitch was bad, we never used our pace, and their defenders weren't tracking anytime we made a run.
Get over your own negativity and the talk of when did we last beat blah blah blah nonsense. The fans and the players have a brittle, weak mentality. We were screaming the stands to push out and actually get on the ball. Everytime we had space we headered it or blasted it instead of taking it down, with loads of time to do so. Anytime we attacked we looked like scoring they were that bad.
Murphy said himself for hte goal, he had so much time that its one of those you end up missing. Because you have too much time to think. I read that and thought, well why the fc*k didn't ye go and do something about it then. It happened everytime we got a quick ball into the box.
i haven't seen it back but i thought there was minimal contact on mcclean when he won the free kick that led to our first goal. serbia were all over us when they got the pen - who's to say if it wasn't given they wouldn't have scored a later goal giving us no chance to get back into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
another lucky MON result as others have mentioned. it's great that we keep going til the final whistle but it we could change our mentality to try to pull further ahead THEN sit back it would stand in our favour in the long run i reckon.
That was also my take, but that's a penalty. The Serbian guy drew the foul, as he is quite entitled to do, and Walters fell into the trap. Once the Serb got there first Walters had no business placing a hand on his back and down he went as soon as he felt the contact. You are right that the trip, which was also enough to give a penalty for in my opinion, happened on yer mans way down, but there was already enough before that happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
It's not how things were 20 years ago. It's not how any of us would like things to be. It's bloody infuriating. But that's how things are and players have a responsibility not to make stupid clumsy challenges like Walters did last night.
The odds are that if Walters had let him run on nothing would have come of it. He was heading out towards the corner flag and posing no danger at all, so all Walters had to do was nothing.
Just for the record, it seems like I'm focusing a lot on Walters there. Given what others are saying about him I just want to add that despite a bit of a **** up (imho) on this occasion, I'm still a big fan of the guy. If it was in charge he'd be one of the first names on the teamsheet.
One more positive is that we seem to be a team that can score goals in most matches.
That's exactly how I saw it. Well phrased.Quote:
Originally Posted by backstothewall
The Serbian fella had possession, and Walters had no business running that close to the back of him. He was caught completely out of position, and either the Serbian fella was going to get a shot away or Walters would nick the attacker and cause him to go down. Daft defending; no complaints about the peno. I'm not sure how much it'd take to knock you in that situation tbh.
Thanks for enlightening us!! There was me thinking they were one of the best drilled sides I'd seen in a long timeQuote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Long is begining to grate me a bit, chewing his gum, everyone calling for him to start for about 4 years, retire robbie and Long himself coming out saying similar to things of those effect when he would score or if he wasn't getting enough chances has he perceived it.
Well you've had your chance the last year and half or so and you aren't doing much about it.
Yup; no-one on the thread at all has commented on how bad their defending was. Sure neither of our goals were down to defensive howlers at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by EAFC_rdfl
Here's the goals btw. No complaints on the pitch for the penalty award, interestingly.
I'd agree it was a penalty too, as annoying as that is given the way the Serb went down, but it's one of those forgivable ones. What he did a while after was a different case, when he flung their winger to the ground during a Serbia breakaway. The play was through the middle so it went unnoticed by the officials, otherwise it would have been at least a yellow card. It looked like Coleman was giving him a bit of a going over for it at fulltime though, pointing towards where it happened. Hopefully next day out he will be a bit more disciplined
Actually the tv coverage pointed that out throughout the game. But you wouldn't have spotted that on your high horse.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
It almost as if a bad pitch doesn't allow you to move and control a ball at paceQuote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
I havent read all the posts on here but most that have stood out are sayig how a draw isnt a bad result and out they outplayed us and/or we were lucky to come out with a draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by EAFC_rdfl
All we needed to do was show a bit bravery a few more attacks and we would have scored.
Post Euros hangover? :-)
The performance was poor but happy with the result.
Quote:
Originally Posted by backstothewall
Sorry chaps, we'll have to agree to disagree. Haven't seen it back but I didn't see a foul and this argument seems to boil do (apologies for the reductivism) 'the foul was coming/Walters was too close to him'.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Maybe I really am old-fashioned, but I still need a foul before a penalty is given. Just cause Walters is in his proximity or was late or was out-of-position or clumsy doesn't give the Serbian a licence to throw himself to the ground. Likewise, I can't see how Walters apparently grazing his knuckles against the Serb's back - as he's bringing his hands up - is enough for him to fall over.
All being fair, Walters should have been in a better position or less clumsy - but he still actually has to foul him to give away a penalty.
I reserve the right to withdraw all the above if I see the clip back and Walters kicked him in the ankles. :)
None of that is to say Serbian didn't deserve to be in front. I'm not really complaining about the penalty award, we've had plenty of soft dubious ones in recent years.Quote:
Originally Posted by zero
I'll agree on not agreeing with "He had a licence to go down", and that there has to be a foul rather than clumsiness.
I just think there was more contact than there appears - not just the (small) nudge on the back, but also a potential clip of the heels.
My first reaction was that it was a stonewall penalty, because Walters did defend it very badly and got the wrong side of his man.
The lack of any real complaints and how close the referee were would all seem to back it up.
But the bottom line is still that we were blessed to come away with a point in a match where Serbia's defence in particular were so abject that we could easily have had all three.
Especially that dreadful goal he scored against the world champions that kept us in with a shout of qualifying for the Euro's...Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
I regard the penalty decision as irrelevant as a second goal was on the cards anyway. As least it came early enough for us to fight our way back in to the game. We were just blessed they didn't score a third.
Nor do I agree that the "game was there for the taking" against a team who enjoyed far more possession than us and created more chances than us and who could retain possession.
p.s. Randolph has been taking penalty saving lessons from Given.
Accuse me of lacking ambition but I'm very satisfied with a draw. Being realistic it's going to be a very tall order to qualify for this World Cup but that is the kind of start that gives us a chance at least. It puts us in a position where we we can take four points from our fixtures with one of our direct rivals, obviously a lot of work to do to achieve that but you'd have to be hopeful that we can beat them at home. A defeat would have been a disaster really so my overriding feeling is relief that we avoided that, much like the Sweden game in Paris, despite them being "there for the taking" also.
The performance was desperately poor but we all know we can do better in that regard. It's still very early in the season with fellas trying to work up to full fitness. We were very poor in Georgia this time two years ago and diabolical in Kazakhstan in the campaign before that. This was a much tougher fixture to start out than what those should have been really.
O'Shea, Coleman and Walters, in particular, must be well short of 100%. Of course that begs the question of whether they should have started at all but obviously O'Neill felt they were too important to leave out for this one. I think the pitch and the early lead gave a few too many of our players an excuse to refrain from doing the right things and just pump it long in an aimless fashion, Whelan and McClean the biggest culprits, but probably slightly unfair to single them out when it was such a poor showing overall.
Long also struggled to make an impact but you'd have to feel for him, a thankless job chasing balls that weren't even aimed in his general direction. I can imagine O'Neill seeing the pitch and telling the players not to take any chances. He often laments our sloppy ball retention and lack of bravery in possession but he was setting his stall out with the exclusion of Hoolahan from the starting line-up.
To Serbia's credit, they made light of the conditions in that respect and continued to do the right things throughout, in our half at least. I thought Tadic looked a class above every player on the pitch last night.
Six points from our next two games are essential but will set us up nicely for Vienna if we can manage it. As for whether or not the other teams (namely Austria & Wales) will pick up results or not in Belgrade remains to be seen. Austria won all their away games in their last campaign, scoring eight goals in wins in Sweden, Russia & Montengro, so they'll have no fear of the trip. Who knows though... maybe an Austria win might be a better result for us anyway in the long run. Wales will have unpleasant memories of their 6-1 humiliation in Serbia a few years back, but they're a different proposition now.
Not sure I could ever buy that a penalty (especially one that was converted) is irrelevant but fully agree that we were outplayed and getting a point was a good result.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
Irrespective of how poor they were (and God they were) we were worse. Shocking display from all and we should be thanking our lucky stars we got a point. Ironically the peno seemed to waken us up. didn't think it was a penalty but ref seemed a bit of a homer in the cards he dished out and Walters gave him the opportunity with very clumsy defending.
He was the same ref as we got in the Estonia away leg, he certainly wasn't a homer that night anyway in fairness. Think he just had a bit of a bad night, the yellow cards were bizarre. They'd bother me more than the penalty concession, I can't see whether Walters clips him or not from the replays. If he does it's a penalty, if he doesn't it's not. Either way, it looked a stonewall penalty to me on first viewing so I wouldn't blame him for giving it.
I think the carmaker's point about some players lacking match sharpness is fair, and I was going to say the same earlier. It's something we might have to live with throughout the campaign I fear.
Players need to be playing regular football if they want a start. If they are stuck on the bench for their club then they need to go out on loan. MO'N needs to get that message out there.
We need to replace O'Shea and Whelan asap. McClean is nothing more than a 20 minute impact sub.
As I said last night before the game I'd have taken a point but when you are 1 nil up after 3 minutes and Serbia could implode if we went for the jugular it's disappointing when do that Irish football speciality of going into a shell.
The optimism before yesterday reminded me of the away game agin Russia at the start of the euro campaign in 2002. All the chat was we wood roll the Russians over after our super performance against Spain in the World Cup. That didn't go so well with a far better quality side and bench http://m.goal.com/s/en-ie/match/russ.../49356/lineups than we have now. A good point last night. At no point in our history have we ever routinely gone to nations like Serbia and won remember Croatia away in 1999 goal in last minute after never getting out of our half and the Croats missing a truck full ? We can get out of this group but there are goin to b a few more nights like last night to get it done
Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I think Walters was in a tricky position (no pun intended), the player was always likely to go down if he touched him. The player ran across Walters path as much as anything else.
Ahhhhhh he said it!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Thoughts on last night's escape for anyone interested....
http://afalsefirstxi.blogspot.ie/201...s-law.html?m=1
It isn't a question of 'there was contact therefore it's a penalty' or 'he was entitled to go down because he felt a touch', no matter how many times those lines are repeated, because there has to be enough contact to cause the foul.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
What usually fools a ref is the simulation, convincing him that enough contact has been made. How many times do we see refs not give a penalty because he thinks the forward is making too much of light contact? Contact is not an offense.
The ref was right there last night, in a very good position to see what transpired.
I couldn't see the offense myself, there was no trip as such with one leg being clipped against another and I thought the dive was too enthusiastic.
Similar to Robbie's penalty v Russia, but I thought his legs were clipped.
Yeah, I just can't see if there's a touch or not. If there is a touch I think it would be enough to impede him, I think the onus is on Walters to ensure he doesn't clip him given the poor tackling position he got himself into. Kostic may have exaggerated the contact but it may still have been enough to put him off his stride. I've just no idea if there actually is any contact or not so I'm happy enough to sit on the fence, but it's definitely not one I'd be too upset about.
Really dont know how to take that game though. So many good reasons as to why we may have played poorly but then the reality of just how poorly we played at times was sobering. I agree with Pineapple Stu's comments above about blooding another generation of players.
I think that this is the real issue for discussion here by us fans in some way - what does this campaign need to deliver? I think we can all agree that our best hope is to somehow secure a play off spot. That would be a significant achievement given how difficult qualification for the WC is now. So, if that is our (admittedly probably just my) stretch target then why arent we looking at this as a transition campaign with something semi-realistic to aim for.
Keep a strong core 11 - with Coleman, Hendrick, Brady, Long and a couple of others as our regular starters - ditch the older players - like O'Shea - and older/useless peripherals who will never be our dependable starters - McShane, McGeady et al - and start bringing in the standout YOUNGER players we have from the Championship as squad players and give them squad experience and playing experience depending on the game scripts. Some mightnt work out but some definitely will.
I mentioned the need for succession planning to begin at the Euros and it didnt happen - and thats fine, understandable in the circumstances - but a "new campaign, new players" philosophy would have been nice to see. It seems we are sticking with the tried and tested in the hopes of qualifying.
I am sure the mandate O'Neill is working with from the FAI/Delaney is qualification at all costs so he may also feel he has no time or grace to blood some youth. If we were to look more strategically at this campaign and the next 2 or 3 campaigns then we should be blooding these players now and getting them ready for some, perhaps more realistically attainable, qualificaiton campaigns ahead.
with respect to the penalty, it just was not a foul from what i could see and therefore, in my opinion, shouldnt have been a penalty. The only clear contact is the dragged foot which was clipped intentionally against the foot of Walters. In other words he was almost on the deck before there was any clear contact. It was a stinker of a call but Walters did give the ref a decision to make by virtue of being so close to the attacker and perhaps that was careless. I think the ref just got fooled, and that happens a lot in the modern game, so we'll just have to get over it.
Geysir, nowhere in the rules does it say there needs to be contact. Excessive force or carelessness are the criteria as far as I can recall. We can argue all we like as if it was a trial by jury but we all know what constitutes a penalty and what doesn't. I think - but can't confirm without the scrutiny of a replay - that the Serb positioned and paced his run across Walters to ensure a clip on the heel or a push in the back. Nothing bordering on assault but enough to ensure Walters could fairly be charged with carelessness.
Separately, it's kind of telling that Walters was that deep from open play in the first place, no?
I thought the rules might be handy for this one
He carelessly charged an opponent. Then he carelessly tripped him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laws Of The Game 2016/17
As I said above I'd love to change the rules back to the way they were when i was a kid in the 90s but this is what we have today.
Never a penalty. Neutral opinion settles it.
But the draw is a nice result for us, not complaining like. :D
He ran across Walters somewhat, rather deliberately I would say, there was not really much Walters could not to avoid a collision.
It is somewhat akin to those insurance scammers who cut in in front of you and then slam on the brakes, there is nothing you can do
because the thinking time covers more distance than the stopping distance.
Walters should put in a counter claim for whiplash.
Hopefully Shane Long will get us one back in the return leg! :cool:
really? I think its stretching things to suggest that what walters did constitutes "charging".Quote:
Originally Posted by backstothewall
I'm not sure the rules above are any different from those years back. Interpretation maybe...Quote:
Originally Posted by backstothewall
A key phrase above is "in a manner considered by the referee". So, Walters was careless in a manner considered by the referee [probably] involving contact. Sure, the player drew the foul by getting between Walters and the ball, just as Duff and Keane have done lots of times (e.g., Russia at home that time he was clipped from behind. Keane played for it and the defender was dumb enough to oblige).
He can't have run across Walters as he had possession in the first place. It was Walters who didn't get out of his way, or challenge him in a fair manner (which, penalty or not, he didn't do)
Interesting comments from Coleman (and Long to a lesser extent) here.
I never said that there has to be contact, but where there is contact, then there has to be enough in order to cause a foul.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
A hand on the back is not a foul in the box, otherwise there would be 50 -100 penalties a game. A hand on the back is contact.
A hand on the back and the forward falls to the ground, the ref has to decide whether the player was pushed with enough force, was faking it or both were equal culprits.
If the ref does award a penalty to the forward, a common refrain is 'oh there was contact', or 'once a forward felt a hand he was entitled to dive'.
I don't know what Walters did because I couldn't see it, I didn't see a trip or a push or what was Walters to do, become invisible when a player turns into his path, dives and makes contact with Walter's foot 3/4 way through the dive?
But the ref was in a good position. I don't think Walter's got a yellow did he?