Just Google 'direct action'...Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
There's yer answer!
;)
As for the clubs or fans, just hope as many as possible protest to highlight UEFA's sanctimony and double standards...
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Just Google 'direct action'...Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
There's yer answer!
;)
As for the clubs or fans, just hope as many as possible protest to highlight UEFA's sanctimony and double standards...
The point I'm making is not that the law is the law is the law. If someone wants to break the rules (on someone else's property), that's their choice, but they should at least take responsibility for the consequences of their actions rather than leave someone else up sh*t creek to suffer the results. What's so "crap" about that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
But what about that €18,000 Dundalk were fined? Who is or should be responsible for that?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
As far as I'm concerned they shouldn't pay. But it's up to them. They probably will just get it deducted from prize money...
The club is in no position to pay. It will be deducted from our prize money. I can't see the fine being rescinded either.
I love the non Dundalkfc supporter saying we should do this and that, they should really just get over themselves and give it a rest.
The issue is not the rule, it is that a certain group of supporters flew the flags, where asked to remove them and told of the implications for the club, yet they still did it. They should of been turfed out of OP and told not too come back.
Except that I'd say it about any club whose fans supported the Palestinians...not just Dundalk...
The club have no choice in the matter though. Even if they did have such an option, refusing to pay a fine would only result in much more serious consequences for both the club and, I would imagine, the FAI. Maintaining such a stance would be impractical and unrealistic. So, the question remains really as to who should be held responsible. In my mind, it's pretty simple really; if a group of individuals want to breach stadium and competition regulations, they have the choice to do that - that's up to them - but, at the very least, they should accept moral responsibility for the repercussions of their actions rather than have an innocent other (the club) suffer instead. No LOI club has money to be throwing away at avoidable fines. If the individuals concerned are not prepared to take responsibility for their actions - it's an entirely reasonable expectation to hold of any mature adult to accept responsibility for his actions - and fork out for the €18,000 they've cost their club, then they simply shouldn't have breached the terms of their entry in the first place and should have ceased waving the flags as soon as they were instructed by the stewards to stop. It's as simple as that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
It's easy to say that though when you don't have to worry about the repercussions.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Here's a quick analogy thought up purely for the sake of argument, as I'm not sure what the actual law on the matter may be, but, say, you have a guest around your house and he starts up a bit of a racket, shouting "Free Palestine!" slogans through a megaphone, waving Palestine flags out your windows and the like. He's got bongo drums and all; the full works. He's kicked up such a racket that the police have been called by your neighbours. You might well agree with your guest's cause, but you tell him to maybe give it a rest for a bit as he's attracting unwanted attention from the authorities. He persists, however, and beats his drums/shouts even louder. As a result, you're landed with a hefty fine for nuisance/disturbance as a result of the noise emanating from your property. Meanwhile, he gets off scot-free. What is your feeling on the matter? Would you pay the fine even though it was his fault or would you refuse to pay the fine and risk further more serious punishment by the law? Would you harbour resentment towards him and feel that he is possibly indebted to you in some way? Would you welcome him back again if it was something he persistently threatened to do?
The principle of legitimate protest is bigger than any repercussions IMO.
Seen fans do similar in the past at Celtic and elsewhere. Sometimes it catches up with them, sometimes it doesn't. Like all protests.
Maxi & ArdeeBhoy outside Oriel for the rest of the season:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxhRhzLIAAAck6A.png
Meaning you'd happily allow people on to your property to protest as outlined above out of principle and would gladly pay any resulting fine caused by their actions?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
It doesn't really matter that other fans have done similar. Is it right that a club like Dundalk should suffer the consequences of the protest (ego-trip)? Why embroil the club in something that has nothing to do with them?Quote:
Seen fans do similar in the past at Celtic and elsewhere. Sometimes it catches up with them, sometimes it doesn't. Like all protests.
In essence yeap, if the cause was justified and like most protestors agree, in essence the means too, to make the point.
One small example from yesterday...
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n...41c3966c98b099
I doubt anybody here disagrees that the cause is just. You just haven't explained what is in it for Dundalk by making themselves martyrs for a cause in a big-money game they're largely uninvited to.
Presumably a warm happy feeling.
They're just a platform. To whom UEFA over-reacted.
If they took the same stance over far more persistent offenders over various fascist/racist symbols/banners, you could say they might have a point.
Or if the same flag wavers were advocating a violent reaction v.Israel (even though they're not and never will be in Europe) or similar, then I could understand some sort of fine then.
It's selective sanctimonious BS which makes you crave every fan at every UEFA game waves a Palestinian flag...
See, that actually would be an effective protest.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
And you haven't answered the question. Why should Dundalk effectively stunt their own growth and reduce their domestic competitiveness to back a group of fans they barely even want there in the first place?
Why shouldn't they...and even if that were true, more fans means more diverse views. Which is generally a good thing.
I just outlined why they shouldn't. Their prize money for reaching that round of the Europa League was around 100k, the same as the prize money they will likely receive for (likely) winning the league this season. 20k is not money they can afford to throw away, nor are any additional fines they can expect to incur if they mount a challenge. You support a club that has the critical mass to mount a campaign of disobedience. Dundalk can't. And before you say anything about LOI closing ranks, I'm a Shamrock Rovers fan - I have no grá at all for Dundalk, but I can see exactly why they wouldn't mount a futile and self-defeating challenge to a rule they likely don't give a **** about to start with.
Like I keep repeating;some things are more important than money. Like an ounce of principle.
Cool, by all means be principled then. Unfortunately, Irish football isn't in a position where clubs can gamble tens of thousands on vague principles because they'll get crushed. If your position is that Dundalk should resign from all UEFA competitions, which is the the end-game of what you propose, that's fair enough, but at least have the honesty to lobby your own club to do the same.
But, as we've seen all over this board, you're all for UEFA's rules once they benefit Celtic and you reserve your "principals" for situations you don't have a skin in.
I would back you 100% if you brought a Palestinian flag to Celtic Park for the next Europa League game. I can only assume that you've already planned to do that, such is your conviction that Dundalk should oppose this fine on all fronts.
No, I'm against UEFA's double standards. As oft explained.
Nothing especially to do with any clubs in particular...
Also some people need to read what others actually say, not just invent an 'agenda'.
Who said anything about an agenda? We have all acknowledged UEFA's double standards. My question is why Dundalk should be the club to challenge that double standard. Not only have you not answered the question, you haven't even addressed it.
Now, I will ask my question simply and without complication: why should Dundalk take the financial penalty of challenging the rules and not a club who can afford it? And I expect a direct answer this time and not another question.
I've already said why not, on a no.of occasions. More wilful mis-reading.
And they already have, on this occasion...
Who do you think has an agenda here?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Fair enough. But what about all the people involved in Dundalk FC? Not so long ago Dundalk were on the brink of going out of business and a lot of fans put their hand in their pocket to save the club and helped to revive the club and got nothing in return so to speak. Also, for years DFC were in the wilderness and the days of playing in the PD, nevermind Europe, looked unlikely. I'd imagine to most Dundalk fans their club means more to them than Palestine or wherever. Why should Dundalk FC, the LoI, FAI and the national team suffer because of a cause you care about? That's what could happen if DFC and FAI challenge UEFA over the fine. We (all forms of football in Ireland) could be expelled from European competitions.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Is there any limit to the self-sacrifice you would wilfully endure in order to ensure that the point was made? Where would you draw the line? Fines? Imprisonment? Hunger strikes? Enlisting with Palestinian resistence groups?...Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
If you're so convinced of the righteousness of the protest, why not donate €18,000 to Dundalk to cover the fine? Or alternatively, you might want to fund a (futile) legal fight against the fine and volunteer to cover any further losses incurred by the club as a result?
Dundalk are a football club. They never asked to be a platform.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
As Charlie mentioned though, weren't you happy enough to enjoy the benefit of UEFA's standards when Celtic were re-instated in the Champions League at Legia's expense? Where were the principles then?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
I've already explained.In numerous posts.
Some of you are either being deliberately obtuse or are very slow on the uptake...
Even if you don't agree. Fair enough.
Arf! Pot and kettle comes to mind, some top (what I presume must be) wumming from AB in this thread tbf.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
All you keep saying is 'principle'.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
You appear to have ArdeeBhoy sussed.Quote:
Originally Posted by colonelwest
Not exactly.
Have to repeat numerous, er, points as certain people seem a tad slow taking stuff in.
Apologies to the Dundalk fans, threw in one throwaway comment and the uber pedants have been circling since, despite them being, in the main, the ones 'at fault'.
It seems some of these so-called 'Ultras' are on a crusade against modern day football and the zionist fascist in Zurich. The whole thing is in their head. IMO, UEFA are right to block any politicial or religious flags, banners and such from football stadia. They've no place in football and football has no place in politics or religion etc..
That would be a fair summary if it were applied across the board. Yet it appears UEFA make it up as they go along - Israeli flags OK Ireland and other national flags (at EPL games) OK Palestinian flag NOT OK.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
All flags are political (and many have religious links) ban all or ban none but at least be consistent
Irish flags at Premier League games are different. It's not a UEFA competition. Did Spurs display any Israeli flags at their European games? Remember, the Jewish communities in London and Amsterdam have asked Spurs and Ajax to stop bringing Israeli or Star of David flags to matches because it's bring up anti-semetic abuse at games. But both groups claim it's to do with their Jewish links and nothing to do with politics or religion. That's the big issue there. The Palestinian flags were a politicial statement according to UEFA and Celtic, St. Johnstone and Dundalk don't have any links with Palestine. Likewise, Rangers and Linfield have brought Israeli flags to games but have not links. UEFA have stated that due to the current conflict bothIsraeli/Palestinian flags were banned on political grounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by marinobohs
I don't believe that football and politics are separable and, as stated earlier in the thread, I dislike the rule because I feel it sanitises football support and gags communal expression. That said, however, I cannot support what the Dundalk flag-wavers did. I reject their inconsiderate and shameless irresponsibility. I think any legitimacy their supposed protest might have had was seriously compromised by their failure to assume responsibility and the fact that they've been content to see their club take the hit for their obvious egotism. If you're going to make a political protest at a football game and use your club's stadium as a platform, I have no problem with that per se, but at least be accountable for your actions and be prepared to insulate your club from feeling the repercussions of your actions if necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
I'm not necessarily saying the rule is consistently applied - all flags are indeed inherently political, as you say - but do we know that Israeli flags are considered OK by UEFA? How do we know this? Just because we've not heard that clubs have been punished by UEFA for their fans waving Israeli flags, it doesn't mean clubs have not been punished for such.Quote:
Originally Posted by marinobohs
Which was the throw-away comment? Unless I've misinterpreted, the argument put forth has consistently been that Dundalk should voluntarily take the hit of being exploited as a platform for protest because the upholding of some vague "principle" will always be worth more than any monetary cost or further penalty that might be incurred by the club. The problem is that the "principled" position you've assumed is untenable. It's littered with holes and contradictions.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
You casually expect Dundalk's rejection (absolute, if necessary) of UEFA's authority, but you simultaneously accept that authority yourself in practice. You have been happy to accept that authority when it has been personally advantageous to do so, such as when Celtic were re-instated into the Champions League at Legia's expense. You welcomed it as the correct decision. If your rejection of UEFA's moral authority was principled, consistent and absolute, as you expect of Dundalk, you would absolutely reject the benefits that also flow from that authority as a matter of principle.
To add to an earlier point, not only did Dundalk not ask to be exploited as a platform, they explicitly requested (via their stewards) that those supporters waving the flags not use the club as a platform for a political/humanitarian protest. In choosing to make their protest at a Europa League fixture hosted by their club, it was the height of ignorance and contemptuousness for that minority to bring their (unwilling) club down with them. Where is the honour, integrity or legitimacy in a protest that shirks responsibility and leeches off an uninvolved football club as a platform only to let the club take the hit when the inevitable repercussions are doled out? It's simply indefensible and it's insulting to those investing their money in the club for purposes other than paying stupid fines of €18,000.
C'mon, AB; you know your stance is legally impractical and morally suspect. It'd be much easier work for you to just admit it. :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
Yawn, good luck with that! The very nature of even playing national anthems before an international game could be deemed political!
I think people who believe politics are not involved in football/uefa are mistaken.
Not going to reply to any more posts on this specific point, but know what I said and UEFA are a bunch of hypocrites, so my stance is perfectly justified.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
And if you knew me better would know I'm not someone who will back down readily. Plus, as you should know from Fbk, I regularly take a non-UEFA national flag to Ireland games...but that's 'our wee secret'.
;)
Can this get moved or closed down? This is not a Dundalk topic and hasn't been for a long time.
Bennocelt hasnt the manners to open up his messages for a response and ardee lad or toyboy is showboating.ffs these lads are well detached from the frontline reality of the situation.If any of you have 18k come ahead or else pish off