Kazakhstan V Republic of Ireland - Friday, 7th September 2012 - World Cup 2014 Q

I've always been of the opinion that if you want to watch something that's pretty for the sake of pretty, you can go to the ballet. For me, football is tribal, it's about your team winning games and getting results, doesn't matter if the goals come from a 30-pass flowing move or off Gary Doherty's arse after a miskick from their keeper.

In my opinion, Trap has gotten us punching above our weight, no matter how the football looks (and I don't even think it's that bad, I remember being in the horrors every time the opposition attacked under Stan, a bit of stability seems nice after that, it's not all about the attackers!).

I do think that there's a bit of refusal to accept qualification on its own merit. With us its always begrudging "sure we only got there cos we drew Iran / Estonia", anyone else and we'd have been out". I think any second / third placed seed that qualifies usually gets a bit of luck along the way. Only the big boys coast in.

That said, over the years the Swedes and Danes have qualified relatively regularly by actually engaging in football matches. The Swedes are as stuck on 4-4-2 as we are but they get better results than we do largely because they take teams on.

Trap's methods have worked in qualifying so far but I think cracks have been papered over and the goals against column is misleading. We ship lots of chances even to mediocre teams and I fear that this will cost us. Our inability or unwillingness to retain the ball is at the root of the opposition getting possession which gives chances. I hope Trap has realised this. I think we need to play on the front foot more.

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Originally Posted by jbyrne

the average goals scored by all the 2nd place teams in the euro qualifiers was 16, we scored 15 (excluding play off). The 16 average is actually inflated by portugals 31 as they were in with san marino who conceeded over 50.

it seems most runners up achieved this in similar fashion. dont risk too much in attack to ensure you conceed as little as possible

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'Concede'.

Am well aware of the strengths of having a good defence, fine. And yes for us, it's a results business.

But it's also the manner in which we play...
Some of which would be alleviated by what Stutts just said in his last post.

I sometimes wonder if some on here have even the slightest clue about tactics or how to set teams up...
:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by SkStu

Just out of interest, how will the Trap fanboys (joke!) react if we don't win on Friday while playing the usual turgid sh!te

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Why play up the positives of course. Kazakhstan are up-and-coming superstars, we're saving a performance for Germany, Whelan only got by-passed half-a-dozen times etc etc...*kidding*

I'd say nearly everyone besides Mrs Trappattoni would agree losing on Friday would be a complete disaster.

It'd be more interesting if we managed to lose/draw but actually played fantastic, expansive football, as unlikely as it is.

Don't Kazakhstan come good in September?

Meaning...

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

'Concede'.
Am well aware of the strengths of having a good defence, fine. And yes for us, it's a results business.

But it's also the manner in which we play...
Some of which would be alleviated by what Stutts just said in his last post.

I sometimes wonder if some on here have even the slightest clue about tactics or how to set teams up...:rolleyes:

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but you do and you know also how to avoid typos

Pretty much. But it's all relative.
;)

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I do think that there's a bit of refusal to accept qualification on its own merit. With us its always begrudging "sure we only got there cos we drew Iran / Estonia", anyone else and we'd have been out". I think any second / third placed seed that qualifies usually gets a bit of luck along the way. Only the big boys coast in.

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That argument usually ignores the results over the preceding 18 months that meant we could be drawn against the likes of Estonia or Iran. Particularly the Estonia draw, we were the only third seeded team from the qualifiers in the top seeds for the play offs.

I've heard the 'good football is more important than results' thing before. As we cycled through various managers at Harps this has been proven not to be true- if you're playing nice football but losing every week your crowds drop and those that remain wish for a better defence.

Often when Ireland try to play passing football they give the ball away anyway and in more dangerous positions than they would by being more direct. At a club side you could work on evolving with style and abilities of your players but that's very difficult with an international side. Especially with a squad that has very few really good players.

Would I like to see Ireland play sexy, attacking football? Hell yeah! But we don't have the players for it in my opinion. I see the comments people make about some of our peripheral players whose abilities seem stellar and wonder if we're talking about the same guys. But then there's always a tendency in football to over rate your own players.

Meanwhile we made it to the Euros for only the second time in our history- with probably the worst squad we've ever taken to a major finals. So clearly the system isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

But the media have turned on Trap, like they do eventually on all Ireland managers and public opinion is inclined to agree. So he's in big trouble the first time we have some poor results.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Meaning...

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Just regurgitating one of Stan's comical quotes in response to SkStu's, "Just out of interest, how will the Trap fanboys (joke!) react if we don't win on Friday while playing the usual turgid sh!te?"

For me it's not about playing pretty football versus playing ugly football. I'd take ugly with results any day of the week.

My point is more that we can play more effective football. We regularly get dominated in midfield even against lowly ranked opposition, we play without the ball too much, our full backs barely venture forward, we hoof it too much, we retain the ball badly and we concede chances. I think we can improve on all those counts while keeping the conservative foundations in tact.

Danny, not sure that joke works.
And agree with Stutts again...
With the simple point also, we have virtually zilch creativity from central midfield.
IMO a disgrace.

A midfielder that looks to receive the ball from the back 4 and play it at least sideways is a great improvement, not to mention a bit of technical skill to handle a bit of pressure.
I think we are moving in the direction of a 50/50 game, possession football/hoofing.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

My point is more that we can play more effective football. We regularly get dominated in midfield even against lowly ranked opposition, we play without the ball too much, our full backs barely venture forward, we hoof it too much, we retain the ball badly and we concede chances. I think we can improve on all those counts while keeping the conservative foundations in tact.

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I'd second all this.

It's tiring to read comment after comment suggesting that posters who'd like us to pass the ball better 'would prefer how we were under Stan' or words to that effect.

Are we better than we were then? Of course, but that doesn't mean we are as good as we can be. We have a game plan now which involves conceding huge amounts of possession to even the poorest of teams, and relying on our defensive organisation get through games. It's a game plan that got us through the group, but it was the foundation for our destruction in the Euros. And I'm worried that we will keep the same system in place for this campaign with changes only happening to personnel, rather than the system and roles players are told to play.

Guarniad take on Trap.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/b...t_gu&fb=native

The buzz word "system". Why, because Spain played us off the park. We were NOT played off the park by Croatia (on another day it would have been 1-1) and we have matched Italy in our previous games, all playing 4-4-2. Other than the Russian game, we have more than held our own away from home playing 4-4-2 or whatever. I think Trapp's system, formation, tactics whatever you want to call them work away from home with the opposition coming on to us (2 unbeaten campaigns away speaks volumes).

His (our) problem is at home. It just doesn't work. We have had some pretty poor teams come to Dublin and outplay us (Celtic Cup aside where we faced other sides equally uncomfortable on the ball). A solution is required for at home. I am not paid €1.5 million (at least not as a football manager) a year so I don't know the answer but we need one.

As to "good football" versus results football, no contest. How much "good football" we can play with a smattering of first teamers from the lower reaches of the EPL, reserve EPL players, Championship players and a couple of across the pond players I am not sure. This debate will have to wait for another day (perhaps two games if both go pear shaped) but for the moment, it's time to put that cat back in the bag and get on with what we've got.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

Just out of interest, how will the Trap fanboys (joke!) react if we don't win on Friday while playing the usual turgid sh!te

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I really doubt there would be too many people making excuses in that eventuality. I would probably fall into the fanboy camp but I couldn't defend him if he doesn't get a win over there.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Danny, not sure that joke works.

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Just my way of saying that anything other than three points from this game would be indefensible, just like Stan's comical excuse for our shambolic performance against the supposed banana-skin of San Marino. We're ranked 116 places above Kazakhstan; they're ranked 142nd in the world for a reason.

I laughed at your joke, Danny.

The mildest suggestion from some of us that we can introduce more effective elements to our play brings the usual stock responses and a misunderstanding of what is being said.

I'm not suggesting this team adopts the tactical equivalent of Bliztkrieg meets Harlem Globetrotters.

Even a bloke down the local 5 a side can tell you that when his local team retain the ball, encourage simple passing movement - other benefits, openings and situations automatically present themselves.

The above paragraph does not suggest over elaborate "over egging" of the situation with 38 passing movements to get to central midfield.

Just simple, economical finding of a man and working an opening and just as importantly retaining possession.

A lot of our current malaise is originating at full back also. I don't know if its instruction or whether that Ward / O'Shea / Kelly do it of their own volition - but there is rarely an attempt to pick out a player. Its aimlessly pelted up the line by playing the percentages. Its handing the impetus to the opposition.

Can you point out one instance in the last 4 years where a central midfield player has showed for the ball when the full back has it?

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Can you point out one instance in the last 4 years where a central midfield player has showed for the ball when the full back has it?

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I presume that's a rhetorical question??????

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Can you point out one instance in the last 4 years where a central midfield player has showed for the ball when the full back has it?

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Darron Gibson would often pull deep for the full-back - point taken though, doesn't happen often and they have less options.

I'd agree with Wolfie insomuch as our full-backs (O'Shea in particular) are terrible distributors. There's a difference between an aimless lump and a decent long-ball. At the very least having full-backs comfortable on the ball would give us another point of forward momentum, and give us more options on the front foot.

It shouldn't be that hard to fix either. I think Kelly (on the right), Wilson and Foley (get him back) would be an improvement in this regard.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

The mildest suggestion from some of us that we can introduce more effective elements to our play brings the usual stock responses and a misunderstanding of what is being said.

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For every post of that ilk, there's another dismissive one suggesting anyone who defends the side or manager is just another apologist.

I wholeheartedly agree with anyone who suggests we can maintain results while improving our play. There are several things Trap could try which would make us more potent and proactive while remaining stubborn in defence.

is the team going to be named today? is there a preff conference scheduled? i think we all have a good idea who will be playing but would like confirmation.

Midfield not showing and the Fullbacks not distributing is a circular argument.

The Midfield eventually don't show because they assume the full back won't play it.

The Full Back won't play it because they assume the Midfielder isn't going to show.

I mentioned the Fullbacks because ideally that's where elements of good play could begin from there.

starting XI confirmed: https://twitter.com/FAIreland/status...13984568643584

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Starting XI v Kazakhstan: Westwood, O'Shea, St. Ledger, O'Dea, Ward, Whelan, McCarthy, McGeady, Cox, Walters, Keane #IRLKAZ

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

We were NOT played off the park by Croatia (on another day it would have been 1-1)

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I beg to differ. Not the only one I'm sure.

At least Trap has left Keane in the team. Which puts him ahead of many of the would-be managers on here in my eyes. :)

As per usual, I look at our fullbacks and worry. Hopefully it won't matter too much in Kazakhstan though.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

Just out of interest, how will the Trap fanboys (joke!) react if we don't win on Friday while playing the usual turgid sh!te

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Pretty much the same way as if he played the unusual turgid ****es I expect.

Anyone know the Taliban team?

Centre of defence very weak. I would much prefer to see O'Shea partnered with St. Ledger. O'Dea is an accident waiting to happen. Ward at full back continues to be a glaring weak link. I would prefer Marc Wilson there with Stephen Kelly at right full. McGeady and McClean have got to be our wingers, period. Wot is Cox doing in the side? Should be a 3-man midfield with Long alone up front. Shocking selection from Trap. Trap out.

Kazakhstan captain: We must beat Ireland
http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakin...nd-565937.html


Kazakhstan captain Kairat Nurdauletov has warned the Republic of Ireland that his team will settle for nothing less than victory in tomorrow's World Cup qualifier in Astana.

Despite their off-the-field troubles, Ireland go into their first World Cup qualifier tomorrow as big favourites.

Kazakhstan are ranked 116 places below Giovanni Trapattoni's team in the FIFA ladder and their last two World Cup qualifying campaigns have seen them pick up just two wins - both against Andorra - and one draw versus Turkey.

The Kazakhs have spent over a week at a training camp preparing for tomorrow's game, however, and defender Nurdauletov was today in a bullish mood about his team's chances of pulling off an upset.

"We would like to win. Only a victory will do. We wouldn't accept a draw," Nurdauletov told a press conference in the country's capital today.

"Our preparation went well. We have been preparing specifically for the Irish team.

"We feel very good. We want to prove that our football is improving and developing."

Kazakhstan have struggled to make an impact on world football since their birth as a nation 21 years ago.

The former Soviet Republic do have a professional league, but the standard is poor and only a handful of their international squad play abroad.

They country's football association have taken steps to improve Kazakhstan's performances on the world level by recruiting Miroslav Beranek - a manager who has 21 years' experience with teams across the globe from Slavia Prague to Arab side Al-Wasl, who until recently were managed by Diego Maradona.

The Czech hopes he can end his team's reputation as one of the minnows of European football by challenging the likes of the Republic, Austria and Sweden for a place away from the lower reaches of Group C.

"Our group can be split into three - the first group is Germany, the second is Ireland, Sweden and Austria, and the third is our nation and the Faroe Islands," said Beranek, who assumed his role last year.

"I want to close that gap between the second and third group, I want to show that there is not such a big difference and we have a match here to show we can do this."

Trapattoni faced calls for his head following the Republic's poor showing at Euro 2012, and the Italian has been placed under further pressure in recent weeks.

Damien Duff and Shay Given, who won 225 caps between them, both told Trapattoni they were retiring from international football and the Italian also received the unwelcome news that Darron Gibson refused a call up for tomorrow's game, apparently due to his disappointment at not playing during Euro 2012.

Beranek insists his team face a tough task if they are to win tomorrow, however, citing key players like Robbie Keane and Aiden McGeady who he fears could tear the hosts apart.

"There are lots of good players in the squad who can fill the gaps of those who have retired," Beranek said.

"Ireland have players who play in the Premier League, who play in the USA, and there is Aiden McGeady, who plays for Spartak Moscow. The team have lots of good players.

"I watched Robbie Keane play in a game recently. He had two chances and scored two goals.

"The team do have weak points. I will not discuss them now but I have told my players what they are and they will try to exploit them."

Local officials expect the 30,000-capacity Astana Arena to be two-thirds full for tomorrow evening's game, which will be played on an Astroturf pitch.

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Originally Posted by tommy_c12000

O'Dea is an accident waiting to happen

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when has he ever even nearly let us down?
I would put forward his very fine performance away against Ruissia as an example that O'Dea is actually underrated

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Originally Posted by tommy_c12000

O'Dea is an accident waiting to happen.

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you could make that argument about any player. O'Dea has played well with various partners at centre half, was comfortable beside Dunne in Russia, and was better than O'Shea against Macedonia. The problem I have with the O'Dea and St Ledger is that there's no natural leader in the partnership, so it puts a much greater responsability on Westwood to tell them where to stand, who to mark, etc.
Simply put O'Dea + St Ledger + O'Shea > O'Shea + St Ledger + A.N.Other

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Originally Posted by jbyrne

when has he ever even nearly let us down?
I would put forward his very fine performance away against Ruissia as an example that O'Dea is actually underrated

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He is not good enough for international football. He is playing with Toronto now in the MLS which is about his level.

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Originally Posted by tommy_c12000

He is not good enough for international football. He is playing with Toronto now in the MLS which is about his level.

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What level is international football? Kazakhstan and Faroes or Spain and Italy? O'Dea did just fine against better teams than Kazakhstan.

I found his explanation for his move to Toronto very refreshing actually.

The MLS is full of players who have played at many more major international tournaments than ours have. In fact, I'd guess there are many more than there are in Scotland, probably the English Championship too.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

The problem I have with the O'Dea and St Ledger is that there's no natural leader in the partnership, so it puts a much greater responsability on Westwood to tell them where to stand, who to mark, etc.

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I agree. I would have preferred to see O'Shea & O'Dea start a CB with Kelly at RB. Harsh on Sledge but I thought they looked OK against Serbia.

Does anyone know why Kazakstan joined UEFA after (re)starting out in Asia?