GUST apply for first division licence

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Originally Posted by Terry

I from what I've been told (but don't quote me as I have nothing to do with the trust) GUSTFC will go down that route if needs be, just to have a club to support, but the rules aren't there for this to happen. GUSTFC want to start at the bottom of the LOI structure as it stands today which is in the first division so have applied for this licence.

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Im sure they do but they would be in the first div because of results not because of sanctions for mismanagement and that means they wil not have been punished therefore no deterent going forward. I admire and respect what gust are trying to do but clubs must expect a sanction or this whole licensing wil continue to be viewed as a farce

Agree with point 1 MB, on the 2nd I'm not so sure and the following comment. Financial viability can be proved in so many ways, yet not one works. Clubs have been handed licences yet went belly up or got the begging bowls out a few months later. I don't know if there is a way to resolve it without resorting to a franchise model, or doing something discussed previously about having a compliance officer with each club, especially as none of our clubs (with precious few exceptions) seem capable of looking after themselves.

There is a simple solution
If a club goes into administration then there licence is revoked, no funny business That would focus the mind of some people however it will not happen as the fai would be afraid of catching some of there bigger fish in this net meant for the minnows .

that wouldnt help at all - galway havent gone into examinership!

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Originally Posted by marinobohs

Not really a fan of points deductions as they bring the League into disrepute (Pats/Shels debacle). I cant see a magic bullet solution for this problem but it might help if

(1) no new club could re register name/history/colours etc for at least five years from demise of "old club"

(2) Any new club (in LOI) would be required to deposit a considerable bond with FAI for duration of first season. This would make it more difficult for newer clubs to join the LOI but would also go some way towards deterring the issues raised.

No matter how good the intention of the applicants, no club should be allowed into the LOI without proper financial viability.

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Both good suggestions - after all both FORAS and the new Derry City have proven themselves to be well-run operations, so other than a name-change for the latter, the five-year rule wouldn't have made much difference to their current situation. As for the bond, the risk, as you say, is that new clubs would struggle to raise the cash for both their budgets and the deposit, but there needs to be some guarantee that there wouldn't be a mid-season collapse.

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Originally Posted by marinobohs

Not really a fan of points deductions as they bring the League into disrepute (Pats/Shels debacle).

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Neither am I, to be honest, but they're better than the alternatives of fines, and outright denial of licenses. And you could argue that they're fair and proportional as well, a team stands to gain a certain number of points by flouting the rules, so the organising authority take those points away from them. (That said while maintaining a healthy awareness of the idiocy of expecting the FAI to apply anything fairly and proportionately!)

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Originally Posted by culloty82

Both good suggestions - after all both FORAS and the new Derry City have proven themselves to be well-run operations.

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Not too sure you could say that at this stage.
Come back to me in another few years and I might agree.

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Originally Posted by peadar1987

Neither am I, to be honest, but they're better than the alternatives of fines, and outright denial of licenses. And you could argue that they're fair and proportional as well, a team stands to gain a certain number of points by flouting the rules, so the organising authority take those points away from them. (That said while maintaining a healthy awareness of the idiocy of expecting the FAI to apply anything fairly and proportionately!)

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Well if the Pats situation was anything to go by, they deduct 3 points per unregistered player per game, regardless of result, so how much would financial mismanagement be? 20,000 points?

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Originally Posted by marinobohs

Not really a fan of points deductions as they bring the League into disrepute (Pats/Shels debacle). I cant see a magic bullet solution for this problem but it might help if

(1) no new club could re register name/history/colours etc for at least five years from demise of "old club"

(2) Any new club (in LOI) would be required to deposit a considerable bond with FAI for duration of first season. This would make it more difficult for newer clubs to join the LOI but would also go some way towards deterring the issues raised.

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I don't think we want to discourage entry into the LoI; any new club should be welcomed.

I think the genuine solution is to implement licencing competently. Galway shouldn't have been let get themselves into the current position. Licencing should assume people running clubs are idiots and need their hands held to stop them doing stupid things. (If people running clubs are smart, they shouldn't have any problems complying). After that, I think a points deduction is the way to go. I've said it before - miss a tax payment with Revenue, for example - official warning. Then a small fine, then points deduction. Easily tracked too. Points deductions are I think much more influential than fines (look at how the points system has worked on the roads compared with fines, as an extreme example).

PS, what you've put down is simple, easy to follow and enforce, intelligent and will assist in the building of a solid and long term league - so it won't happen then. Football in Ireland has a mentality of fly by night, get it done handy, quick and cheap, ah sure, it'll be grand. Blame can be laid at the door of the GAA and IRFU for being more solid, community based and professionally run (there is a slight element of truth there but too easy to use). Also I've read, could be a point by one prominent Rovers activist or possibly John Giles, that football clubs have been by and large run by small businesspeople with lacking education and foresight - there's an element of truth to that, though it's not a reason for rejecting intelligent proposals to save the LOI.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Well if the Pats situation was anything to go by, they deduct 3 points per unregistered player per game, regardless of result, so how much would financial mismanagement be? 20,000 points?

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For Pat's? 100 million billion points, clearly!

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I don't think we want to discourage entry into the LoI; any new club should be welcomed.

I think the genuine solution is to implement licencing competently. Galway shouldn't have been let get themselves into the current position. Licencing should assume people running clubs are idiots and need their hands held to stop them doing stupid things. (If people running clubs are smart, they shouldn't have any problems complying). After that, I think a points deduction is the way to go. I've said it before - miss a tax payment with Revenue, for example - official warning. Then a small fine, then points deduction. Easily tracked too. Points deductions are I think much more influential than fines (look at how the points system has worked on the roads compared with fines, as an extreme example).

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Would happily welcome into the LOI any new club that is sustainable not any punter wanting a crack at LOI (or pyramid schemes playing at being a football club). :rolleyes:

The FAI have shown themselves utterly incapable of administering the current watered down Licencing rules with anything remotely like consistency. To have things like League winners, relegation etc decided (via points deductions) by the whims of these people is just plain scary.* Have we forgotten so quickly the will they/wont they debacle of Pats registration issue ? Road penalty points are imposed by an Independent authority and,by and large,consistent. Our friends in Abbotstown are neither.




* Limerick can just disband now :cool:

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Originally Posted by marinobohs

Would happily welcome into the LOI any new club that is sustainable not any punter wanting a crack at LOI (or pyramid schemes playing at being a football club). :rolleyes:

The FAI have shown themselves utterly incapable of administering the current watered down Licencing rules with anything remotely like consistency. To have things like League winners, relegation etc decided (via points deductions) by the whims of these people is just plain scary.* Have we forgotten so quickly the will they/wont they debacle of Pats registration issue ? Road penalty points are imposed by an Independent authority and,by and large,consistent. Our friends in Abbotstown are neither.




* Limerick can just disband now :cool:

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Our choices are:

-Have the FAI decide licensing and sanctions.
-Have the league split away from the FAI, and have the clubs, or a third party (Platinum 1, etc.) decide licensing and sanctions.
-Not bother with licensing at all.

I know the FAI aren't perfect, but they're the best we've got.

What we need is a fudge-proof system for licensing, where everything is concrete. A sliding scale of points deductions for clubs who break budget restrictions, denial of licenses for worse offences.

The FAI simply shouldn't allow themselves any wiggle room. If, say, Sligo, don't comply with budget restrictions on licensing day, they should be able to look in a table, see they are spending 66% of the money on wages, and deduct them 1 point. If half way through the season, Bray's income is 15% below what they projected, 2 points. No conditional offers, no delay of deadlines, no scope for them to allow their favourites room to manoeuvre. It would be harsh, but at least it would be fair, and the league would be better for it, especially once clubs got it into their thick skulls that the FAI weren't fooling around any more, and it was a waste of their time and resources running things in anything but a sustainable manner.

The biggest issue I can see here is that of multi-year contracts, if a club is relegated, or will otherwise lose revenue. However, that could be avoided by, instead of agreeing to pay a player a set cash wage, you agree to pay him, say 4.5% of the club's turnover. If that drops, so does his wage (while also giving them a nice performance-related bonus if things go well)

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Originally Posted by peadar1987

The biggest issue I can see here is that of multi-year contracts, if a club is relegated, or will otherwise lose revenue. However, that could be avoided by, instead of agreeing to pay a player a set cash wage, you agree to pay him, say 4.5% of the club's turnover. If that drops, so does his wage (while also giving them a nice performance-related bonus if things go well)

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That brings us back to the root of the problem if people offer multi year contacts while relagation and reduction of proposed income is possible then your club is doomed to failure

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Originally Posted by passerrby

That brings us back to the root of the problem if people offer multi year contacts while relagation and reduction of proposed income is possible then your club is doomed to failure

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And if you don't, you're never going to get a decent transfer fee for a player you've developed. I think a percentage-based pay deal is a decent compromise.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I don't think we want to discourage entry into the LoI; any new club should be welcomed.

I think the genuine solution is to implement licencing competently. Galway shouldn't have been let get themselves into the current position. Licencing should assume people running clubs are idiots and need their hands held to stop them doing stupid things. (If people running clubs are smart, they shouldn't have any problems complying). After that, I think a points deduction is the way to go. I've said it before - miss a tax payment with Revenue, for example - official warning. Then a small fine, then points deduction. Easily tracked too. Points deductions are I think much more influential than fines (look at how the points system has worked on the roads compared with fines, as an extreme example).

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We all know where that will end: Pete Mahon banned from the LoI for two years for failure to wear a seatbelt while criticising the FAI.

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Originally Posted by peadar1987

And if you don't, you're never going to get a decent transfer fee for a player you've developed. I think a percentage-based pay deal is a decent compromise.

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That's a gamble and we know we're that got us in the past

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Originally Posted by Dodge

I hope GUST are allowed in the league, and I've no axe to grind with anyone in Galway but in most cases overspending is cheating as a club.

To walk away from that, practically untouched in some cases, clearly isn't fair on clubs who have stuggled to pay their way and suffered on the field.

You use the term holding company like it isn't really a part of the club. The people in charge of running a football club made decisions for the football club, and the football club should be responsible for that. It'd be like not relegating a club because their manager made some awful decision but 'he's only an employee, he's not the club..."

Awful analaogy maybe, but I simply don't agree that the 'holding company' argument stands up

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I don't agree with the criticism leveled at GUST from posters on here. You may say that I'm a Cork City fan, and I would say that, but there you go. I've quoted Dodge's post as I think he has hit the nail on the head for the reasons that so many people are against the actions of GUST and possibly FORAS 2 years ago.

Firstly, I totally agree that Football clubs who live beyond there means are cheating and should be punished. There is a 65% rule (which is probably not being enforced) and there should also, IMO, be a rule to punish clubs who don't pay creditors on time. Points deductions and relegation should be the threat for football clubs who flout rules. Football fans will be angry with their board, and possibly the FAI, when this happens, but they can live with it. But this is as far as I would agree with you Dodge. I don't agree with your analogy, as bad decisions made by a football manager can at worst lead to relegation.

But the fans of Galway United are being threatened by the loss of their football club because of decisions made by their board. The same way that Cork City fans were threatened with the extinction of Cork City Football Club because of Tom Coughlan. Football Clubs are more than just companies Dodge. They represent communities who have supported them passionately for generations. They should not be taken away from them just because of bad decisions made by chairmen and boards etc. The punishment for the crime is not fair on football fans who just want a club to support.

Some people here think that walking away from debts is not on. But what would you have GUST do? 2 years ago, FORAS were willing to take over the club from CCFC and honour the debts, but Tom Coughlan did not want to play ball. What could they do? If FORAS didn't apply for a license they would not have a club to support. I'm not 100% sure of the ins and outs at Galway Utd, but if the board won't sell to GUST, what else can they do? They will be left without a club to support if they don't do what they are doing.

Also, the people suggesting that Galway Utd fans should just support Mervue or Salthill are obviously on a wind up. If Finn Harps folded would their fans just follow Derry City? Fanad? If Monaghan folded would their fans support Dundalk or Drogheda or whatever the nearest club was?

And the people saying that GUST should be forced to "work their way back up" are making no sense. The First Division is the lowest rung in the LOI ladder, so they are "working their way back up". Just because the first division is the lowest is hardly GUST's fault. There just isn't a long line of clubs looking to get into the LOI.

Apologies for the long post.

You managed to say what I've been thinking without coming across as a lunatic. We're all lunatics here though I suppose, if you think about it.

so lets assume for a second that the people at gust are in fact a bunch of well intentioned fools and in a year or two we are back at the same place, should the newly formed independent supporters club be able to get a new license on the grounds that they pulled there support from gust and are far more sensible than the last lot. if so this crazy merry go round is never going to end, so could you stop and let me off.:tremble:

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Originally Posted by passerrby

so lets assume for a second that the people at gust are in fact a bunch of well intentioned fools and in a year or two we are back at the same place, should the newly formed independent supporters club be able to get a new license on the grounds that they pulled there support from gust and are far more sensible than the last lot. if so this crazy merry go round is never going to end, so could you stop and let me off.:tremble:

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Well IMO, fans owned clubs are the way forward. So long as they are run in a proper democratic way. Fans would never let a club go to the wall in the way that Tom Coughlan and the Galway board have done.

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

Well IMO, fans owned clubs are the way forward. So long as they are run in a proper democratic way. Fans would never let a club go to the wall in the way that Tom Coughlan and the Galway board have done.

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Yup. That's why Bohs are such a vibrant, trouble-free club.

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Originally Posted by passerrby

so lets assume for a second that the people at gust are in fact a bunch of well intentioned fools and in a year or two we are back at the same place, should the newly formed independent supporters club be able to get a new license on the grounds that they pulled there support from gust and are far more sensible than the last lot. if so this crazy merry go round is never going to end, so could you stop and let me off.:tremble:

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You mean like what has happened at Shams, Derry and Cork? It seems to take a lot longer than a year or two to irredeemably screw up a club.

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Originally Posted by Louth4sam

I really don't think that is much of a deterrent either. If Cork got a point deduction the season they bought the history, crest etc it wouldn't have made much difference as they were not going to get promoted anyway.

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Then why not give us the points deduction the season that we actually started using the old name. i.e. last season. It would have meant that we would not have gotten promoted this season, but would have been a reasonable punishment IMO.

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Originally Posted by Louth4sam

If a new entity wants to acquire the previous ones's history it should also acquire it's debts by default.

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As was galwayhoop said previously (quoted below), this is not in line with company law. The FAI could not enforce it surely.

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Originally Posted by galwayhoop

Anyway long story short, the FAI nor anyone can operate outside of the laws of the land and straddle new legal entities with old debt from insolvent companies.

However they do have a trump card:
should they choose they could impose football sanctions, and make them specific for When new entities (GUST FC, CC FORAS, DERRY) spring up and want to be know as the old entity.
If new clubs want the old identity they should be relegated to the bottom division (1st. Div currently) and perhaps they should then be prevented from gaining promotion for 3 or even 5 years. Or a salary cap, prevented from having more than X pro players etc.
The choice then would be easy, new club OR old club but not able to progress for a period of time to be an example to others.

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That would be reasonable. I think most fans owned clubs would take this punishment in order to continue the clubs name.

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Originally Posted by galwayhoop

The fact Derry (I'm not an expert on DCFC so apologies if wrong here) & Cork folded (albeit last option or otherwise), regrouped and went back up debt free is a joke really - and ask any of their fans if they are the same club now or not?

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How is it a joke? What option did they have?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Yup. That's why Bohs are such a vibrant, trouble-free club.

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Did you miss the part where I said "run in a proper democratic way"?

Bohs was run in a proper democratic way. The fans (members) elected in the board and voted on everything. I don't think you can take "run in a proper democratic way" to mean "idiot-free".

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Originally Posted by passerrby

Im sure they do but they would be in the first div because of results not because of sanctions for mismanagement and that means they wil not have been punished therefore no deterent going forward. I admire and respect what gust are trying to do but clubs must expect a sanction or this whole licensing wil continue to be viewed as a farce

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Well we finished in 3rd place in 2009 yet still had to go down to the first division. If relegation is to be the punishment then that's the punishment. Just because Galway had a horrendous season, shouldn't come into it.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Bohs was run in a proper democratic way. The fans (members) elected in the board and voted on everything. I don't think you can take "run in a proper democratic way" to mean "idiot-free".

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But wasn't the problem at Bohs, that the board hid certain details from the members? Maybe I should add the word "transparent" to my statement above.

Rumours their application was unsuccessful. Statement due this evening.

Any more word?

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

Well we finished in 3rd place in 2009 yet still had to go down to the first division. If relegation is to be the punishment then that's the punishment. Just because Galway had a horrendous season, shouldn't come into it.

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No you didn't finish 3rd in 2009, you began life in 2010.

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

No you didn't finish 3rd in 2009, you began life in 2010.

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Sorry bud, I support a football club, not a business entity.

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

How is it a joke? What option did they have?

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Joke probably the wrong word. Clubs had no option.
What i meant was they were reformed as new entities, then bought old name and history and are now back in premier debt free and in good shape. No disincentive. There should be some baggage attached maybe as per my earlier suggestions.
If rumours in Galway this evening are to be believed, we on the other hand, are going to be the scapegoats.

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Originally Posted by galwayhoop

Joke probably the wrong word. Clubs had no option.
What i meant was they were reformed as new entities, then bought old name and history and are now back in premier debt free and in good shape. No disincentive. There should be some baggage attached maybe as per my earlier suggestions.
If rumours in Galway this evening are to be believed, we on the other hand, are going to be the scapegoats.

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CCFC finished in 3rd place in the Premier, were relegated and spent two seasons in the 1st division. Do you not think that that was a punishment?

I hope it's not true. I'd like for one season to go by in this league without a club ceasing to exist.

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

CCFC finished in 3rd place in the Premier, were relegated and spent two seasons in the 1st division. Do you not think that that was a punishment?

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Not meaning to be pedantic but finished 3rd in Premier. Didn't get license. Wound up. New club formed in lower division. One year later bought the name and history of old club.
My point is if Foras remained as Foras and not morphed into Cork City FC it isn't an issue. However once they 'become' the old club it might give ammunition to others.
Also might make some people wonder why they bother paying off debt.
However the news tonight, if confirmed, will be incentive enough I think.

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Originally Posted by sullanefc

But wasn't the problem at Bohs, that the board hid certain details from the members? Maybe I should add the word "transparent" to my statement above.

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But my point is that Bohs - and other clubs, such as Stockport - show that fan-owned clubs aren't the panacea they're made out to be. I think they're more often good than not, but they can go wrong for similar reasons to "normal" clubs. There's nothing about fan-owned clubs that inherently prevents screw-ups, ground sales, overspending, etc.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

But my point is that Bohs - and other clubs, such as Stockport - show that fan-owned clubs aren't the panacea they're made out to be. I think they're more often good than not, but they can go wrong for similar reasons to "normal" clubs. There's nothing about fan-owned clubs that inherently prevents screw-ups, ground sales, overspending, etc.

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you're wasting your time, he wants foras to give tutorials to other clubs - including sligo

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Originally Posted by galwayhoop

Not meaning to be pedantic but finished 3rd in Premier. Didn't get license. Wound up. New club formed in lower division. One year later bought the name and history of old club.
My point is if Foras remained as Foras and not morphed into Cork City FC it isn't an issue. However once they 'become' the old club it might give ammunition to others.
Also might make some people wonder why they bother paying off debt.
However the news tonight, if confirmed, will be incentive enough I think.

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My club (which had never played in the first division before) had to play 2 seasons in the first division. So in essence, we got relegated because of finances, not football. THAT was a punishment.

from rumours going around town last night it look like Galway United STFC were unsuccessful in their application. Apparently all the necessary requirements were meet but the NLEC ( Eamon Naughton,Michael Cody, Richard Collins, John Delaney and John Foley), a body which is independent from the FAI, believe that the people of Galway will rally around the 2 housing estate teams.

Senior football in Galway is finished. RIP. Back to supporting Manchester United it looks like!