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Ward plays left back most weeks in the Premiership but is constantly omitted. Kilbane is playing central midfield for Huddersfield in League 1. Green was an unused sub for Derby at the weekend. Even the likes of Wes Hoolahan who plays week in week out for Norwich would have been a better bet. Too much deadwood in the squad IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by irishfan86
Honestly lads, but Trap is playing with fire by not including McCarthy. I understand the lad is coming back from a long injury and has not even kicked a ball for Wigan, even though he was on the bench on Saturday. And I also understand that Roberto Martinez may not even want him to travel over for the game given his rehabilitation status. But it would have been a nice gesture to include him all the same. He should have been in there ahead of Green and Whelan.
Which leaves us now with a situation where he won't have been tried before the Macedonia game. Do you think Trap will, all of a sudden, decided to pick him for that game just because he has recovered his fitness?
Trap should have taken the gamble. If the boy doesn't see his name in the squad then what will that tell him?
here we go again.
Why do i even bother getting myself excited over the announcement of Irish squads anymore?
As others have already asked, how in the flamin heck are McShame, Kilbane and Green in this squad ahead of Ward and McCarthy for starters. It is sofa king frustrating.
I really despise Trap and his scouting and selection policies. There, ive said it.
Chill out. McCarthy was in the squad for Norway and pulled out through injury, the same injury which keeps him, just, out of this squad. He'll get involved soon enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
As for Ward, he probably deserves a run but it's by no means a slam dunk since his most eye-catching performances were in advanced roles and Elokobi displaced him for a spell (Ward's been back in because of Elokobi's suspension). We might be desperate but he's not making a cast-iron case. And those who have - Clark and Coleman, Stokes - are getting their reward.
It's not a bad squad. In fairness, including seven strikers for one game indicates Trap is really making it a priority to give all the strikers a go before the qualifiers. A bit less conservative.
Ward's not made a convincing case, McCarthy's just back from injury. Get over it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
we will not qualify for the Euros. Get over it.
Seriously, so we have a difference of opinion on a manager (shock, horror) - no need to be so arrogantly dismissive.
Maybe if you tone down your comments - i.e. despising of Trapattoni, you wouldn't be getting comments that you perceive as arrogantly dismissive.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Calm down. Your comment on a LB who isn't a convincing LB and an injured midfielder not making the squad is histrionically over the top imo and hardly indicative of despicable 'scouting and selection' policies. Especially since those who have made a great case - Clark, Coleman, Stokes - are all included.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Still my response was equally OTT, so I apologise and replace 'get over it' with 'take a deep breath.'
But in terms of 'here we go again', can we ever engage in a squad announcement (not least one for a friendly) without some marginal call resulting in 'won't someone think of the children?!' style reactions? Lively debate's one thing but it's getting a bit self-parodic imo.
Has O'Dea??Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
Trapp has a history of baffling decisions when it comes to omissions and inclusions. I think McCarthy's omission is a valid concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
I guess i share the general sentiments in this thread.
Disappointing to see McShane, Kilbane(no probs with him being there as a sub, but not as a starter, as has been noted he's not even playing LB anymore) and co. still knocking around but at least Clark and Wilson are in, hopefully he doesn't just stick out his usual 11 now(Kilbane, Green, Whelan etc) and gives the new lads a proper run.
To be sure I'm not saying the squad is perfect, we're all going to have people in or out. But, in my mind, the squad has progressively included the fit, untested players it should have.Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_peepee
In the case of O'Dea, he - like McShane and Green - are, for better or worse, in possession of a squad berth. It's up to other players to displace them, a task that shouldn't be that difficult. But, for me only a fit McCarthy and Meyler have made a case to do that.
I don't really fancy O'Dea but he's a CB, who can fill in at LB, and those are his natural positions. Ward isn't a centre back and, imo, isn't a particularly good LB, albeit one who gets a run out in the Prem. However poorly stocked we are at LB simply turning out in the Premiership isn't a reason for inclusion.
Who would you have instead of O'Dea? Personally I'd have chosen Bruce (hardly a major upgrade) but he's in decent form for a good team. Or, throwing caution to the wind, Stephen O'Halloran - get him on the training ground to have a look since he could be the best bet long term.
im perfectly calm SvD. In fact i am more bemused at this stage. Trappatoni's squad since day one have led me to this state of mind as i realise the futility of getting angry about it. There is also an element of futility in voicing my frustrations on this forum, which you have confirmed for me. How dare we question Il Duce or how dare we hope that the players that we rate get picked ahead of the players he rates which has always been based on a questionable selection/scouting policy.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
My reference to "here we go again" was an exasperated reference to my own repetitive criticisms of Trappatonis squads and selection.
Agreed. I don't really mind the squad, it's got enough new faces in it where I will take great issue if he doesn't play them. Coleman, Clark and Wilson should all get good game time.Quote:
Originally Posted by gilberto_eire
Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
Has Green? Has McShane? Has Keogh? Has Treacy? - all are subs for Championship teams and Kilbane is plying his trade in lowly League one. Might as well call up Lanre Oyebanjo.Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_peepee
At a glance, the notable omissions are Ward and McCarthy right? I think it's now abundantly clear that Trap doesn't rate Ward at all. I thought Cunningham's absence may have opened the door but that possibility can be written off. Another manager may have included McCarthy in anticipation of him getting some games between now and the game. I'm glad I didn't get my hopes up about his inclusion. The usual deadweight suspects making up the numbers. I don't fancy McShane, Green or O'Dea at all at this stage. Is the former even getting a game at Hull? Looking forward to seeing Coleman and Clark. In the starting lineup, please.
I agree. Not too upset about the squad but this game is a glorified friendly and should be used accordingly with those names firmly in mind. Green and Kilbane starting would be very disheartening.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
Ward is a LB and plays week in week out for a PL team and doesn't get called up? It's a huge problem area for us. The only person in that squad who I'd be comfortable playing there is O'Shea * correction - Clark can also play there and has done well in the games he has featured for Villa this season.
McCarthy is coming back from injury but I think it would be worthwhile if he was invited to attend the training sessions.
Will he play Coleman, Wilson and Westwood? These guys need the experience. I just fear he is going to play his so called strongest team (in his head) and we'll learn nothing.
Forgot to put my team down (based on that squad selection)
Westwood
Foley Dunne Clark O'Shea
Coleman Wilson Fahey Duff
Long Doyle
Mixture of youth and experience.
Come on. There's a broad spectrum of thought on here and my comment was in response to provocatively worded post from yourself. The oft quoted, simplistic view that this forum is fervently pro-Trap doesn't stack up.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
There's plenty of debate, questioning of Trap etc. But the stronger the view, the stronger the rebuttal - a questionable selection policy is very much different from a despicable one.
And vice versa - if I was to say 'I don't just support Trap's selection policy, I think his selection of Paul Green is the single most masterful piece of managerial selection since Steve Stauntion and Alan O'Brien', I'd never be allowed to post on here again. Rightly so too.
Anyway tone or justification aside, we'll just debate the points from here on in. Agreeable?
Genuinely, can someone pro-Ward tell me why he should be in? Essentially I don't think his presence in the Prem is reason enough, even with Kilbane in League One. And he hasn't been playing week in week out at LB for a couple of months....
Trap- on TV3 news a few mins ago.
Said McCarthy was left out because he is just back and that he will continue to 'follow' him and he will get his opportunity in the next game - or something to that effect.
Also hinted that Clarke will get the nod at LB!
http://www.tv3.ie/sport.php
SvD:
You championed the case of O'Dea based on his ability to play 2 positions (neither particularly well imo). Ward has played at LB, LW and striker in his premiership and championship career. Kilbane is no longer playing premiership, no longer playing championship and no longer playing LB. Can you explain to me what rationale is employed as to why he should be in the squad for a friendly ahead of Stephen Ward who, while not the best LB in the premiership, is of acceptable/passable quality in that position and is also the most versatile Irish player in the Premiership.
I find Traps selection policy, which we are paying a truckload for, to be despicable at worst or lazy at best. His modus operandi is conservative selection, conservative tactics and primitive style aimed at achieving short term success. Only the problem is it hasnt achieved any success unless you count moral victories in the form of 3 draw and a loss to two terrible, if once great, teams. And i dont think that the success element will have changed come the end of this campaign. If that proves to be the case then he needs to go.
I'm personally still not convinced of Fahey in the centre of a midfield four...Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
I certainly didn't champion him - I actually said I 'didn't particularly fancy him' and that's not based on his looks - but my main point is he has his hands on a squad berth (like Green and McShane) and in international football it's generally, and often unfairly, up to the omitted to displace the included.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
In terms of O'Dea vs Ward, it's not really about versatility as it is about a young player who is a naturally a defender. I think O'Dea's in the squad primarily as a CB, who could fill in at LB at a pinch, and is a natural defender. So I don't see Ward and O'Dea actually going head-to-head for a squad place. As I said above, I think it's more likely to be Duffy, Bruce or maybe O'Halloran taking O'Dea's place.
In terms of Ward getting in the squad at all, he's undoubtedly versatile and I've been particularly impressed with him playing in advanced roles. But at LB he appears suspect to me and not a long term solution to the LB position. Simply playing LB at Prem level isn't a reason enough since there's a lot of question marks over his ability. And unfortunately he may be a victim of his own versatility, because he's not going to get a sniff at LW or up front at the moment.
I will concede I wouldn't have a problem having him in the squad - he deserves a look and it's hard to know what he has to do, though I suspect nailing a starting role in one position (probably advanced) would help. As said, I suspect Trap doesn't rate him.
And as for the LB argument altogether - looks like Clark's in line. He's probably not the long term solution either but he's much better than O'Dea, likely better than Kilbane and actually a natural defender unlike Ward.
If our performances and results don't improve and success doesn't come, then I agree 100% about him going.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
I'm less and less convinced by Trap and his obvious blindspots, but I'm inclined to take his McCarthy reasoning on face value. At least Clark, Coleman and Wilson are in! Best & Stokes at least show that someone is paying attention to current form.
There's a great chance to make Foley, Clark, Wilson, Gibson and a cople of others mainstays of this team and there are enough freshish faces in the squad to give us the new blood we need, but I fear the teams will be same old, same old again.
I'm surprised McCarthy has not been picked as he is sure to feature for Wigan in the thier next few games. It will be interesting to see who actually starts against Wales. If Clark, Foley(midfield. Wolves have badly missed him last two games) and Coleman don't start then I will be really ****ed off. The away performance against a really poor Slovakia side means we have to start improving rapidly to even get a second place in this group. That means new blood. I would only guarantee four players their places at this stage. Dunne, O'Shea, Doyle and Duff.
Team I'd have out:
Given
Foley Dunne O'Shea Clark
Coleman Gibson Wilson Hunt
Long Doyle
With Coleman and Hunt marauding, I'd stick with Gibson and Wilson to sit and tick it over. Fahey, Best and Westwood on at half-time. Stokes/Walters, Treacy, Kelly and McGeady also get some game time. Suspect Robbie will play though and if he does, just a half please.
McCarthy should be there even if its just to train with the squad and get familiar with the set up / staff and players.
He is by far our best option in Midfield and was until he got injured our only Midfielder not only playing week in week out
but performing and holding his own against established prem players.
Very dissipointed for the lad. I hope Trap has called him personally to explain his exclusion.
Also were is Maguire? he was invited over as a guest to attend the game and now what , nothing.
Can anyone shed any light on his exclusion.
I'm not saying he's world beater or has been pulling up trees lately but we need to look at alternative
options
Not too many world beaters there but sure we hav'nt got any. Throw in McCarthy and Ward:Dand the average/mean ability of that squad should'nt be that shabby.Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_denilson
No Duff who was outstanding for Fulham on Saturday? And Duff is still a better option than McGeady or Hunt.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
The squad is very big and looks a bit lop sided, what with 2 keepers, 4 Right backs, 0 LB, and 7 strikers. That said, he could have fixed that by dropping 5-6 players, but why have a night of the long knives for a friendly.
I can see the argument for leaving McCarthy behind for this one, and I'm not sure I rate Ward myself. Not sure what Trap should have done differently. There's an argument for O'Halloran, but he's probably better left to concentrate on his club football and getting a score of games for Coventry under his belt.
I'd go with...
Given
Foley O'Shea Dunne Clark
Coleman Whelan Fahey Duff
-------Keane Long----------
Subs: Westwood, St. Ledger, Wilson, Lawrence, Best, Doyle, Walters
I agree but it's a friendly - we know what Duff brings to the table, with Hunt back to fitness I'd give him the start. And with Duff actually in the Fulham side, he doesn't need game time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar
Agree a hundred per cent Dunners. McCarthy should have been there for familiarity purposes. The lad has been out of action for a couple of months and could have used an emotional lift by being invited to the squad to train at the very least. So what if Green or Whelan were left out. We know what Whelan can do, and he's regressed since, and we know what Green can't do.
And also what about Maguire? If he's not selecting him then why was he invited over? Confusing. I don't want to bash Trap too much because there are quite a few good strikers in the squad, but Kilbane, Green, McShane and O'Dea all could have been left out while McCarthy and Maguire should have been included.
It's just irritating when you see the same filler players in the squad time and again.
Cheers for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Doo
He namechecks Clark and Coleman and says it will be "a good opportunity" for them. In relation to McCarthy he says "two times we've looked for him" which I presume means he's been called up twice before only to be ruled out for whatever reason. He cautions against introducing too many young players ("three or four") because losses affect world ranking and in that regard, claims to be upset about the Norway loss. Returns to Clark and says he's played well at left back. "We'll decide Kilbane or Clark". Stresses the importance and influence of senior players like Given and Keane in relation to younger players joining the squad.
We might see a couple of changes (Coleman and Clark?) but that's about it.
Didn't McCarthy p*ss off Trap by pulling out of some earlier squad and now getting the Reid/Ireland treatment??
And Ward should be given a go at L/B. in these Mickey Mouse games, whilst sadly don't think Green is up to international football, except v. the minnows. So a standby squad player at best.
If Trap wants to stick with his dour midfield system, may as well play Whelan and Gibson, when available, there for the rest of the campaign. With Andrews and Wilson as the main cover.
Especially as the first 3 names mentioned don't seem to figure in any plans he has.....
What a load of whingeing cráp written here that McCarthy should be called up, probably some of you would be thinking that Bruce asked too much too soon of Meyler.
I don't know about Ward one way or the other. It's the team Trap picks from who he has in the squad, is what matters.
They look an average enough bunch, out of which probably only Clark and Coleman could make a difference to the first team.
The rest of them are not really that much better or worse than the players who get picked.
No way McCarthy should have been called up. He's JUST back from injury and needs some time to get back into the swing of things.
How Paul McShane was called up is a mystery. He's had feck all starts this season and half the time he isn't even making the bench. No need for him at all.
Then why play Dunne, O'Shea etc etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
I would play this team:
---------------------Westwood------------------
Foley ---------O'Shea -------- Dunne (c)--------Clark
-----------------------Wilson-------------------
Coleman --------------Fahey ------------McGeady
-----------------Long -------- Doyle-------------
Sub: Given, St Ledger, S Kelly, Gibson, Whelan, Treacy, Keane, Best, Stokes
To me that's an exciting team and rewards those who deserve it, and punishes those who deserve it.
Then why pick O'Shea who has also just come back from injury?Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
My Team would be Westwood
O'Shea Dunne St ledger Clark
Coleman Foley Wilson Duff
Long Doyle
We have more options on the wing/up front than at CB and they deserve game time. If the team features Foley and Clark, as mine does, there's two almost totally new faces that'll need some experience to help bed in. We need to look at as many attacking options as possible while maintaining a good blend of experience and new faces IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar
Dunne and O'Shea help bring new defenders through, but playing Duff for this friendly doesn't really do anything for us except prevent Hunt/Fahey/McGeady/Treacy from gaining more experience.