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Brought up in Ireland? So that gives you a chance to include ROG (USA) and Heaslip (Israel)?
The idea of calling someone like Kevin Kilbane plastic would be remarkable, even for you Murf?
And what about the London-born Dave O'Leary and Paul McGrath? Are they plastic too?
Edit: Murf edited before the inevitable onslaught.
It's not anything abnormal though either, is it? I mean, the rules and the rights they confer are there to be used, plus I think a healthy number of second or third generation players in the squad represents Irish heritage with its history of mass emigration rather well. Not to shirk the FAI of their duties within Ireland either, of course, but we'd still be a very competitive force even if we ignored diaspora players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Murfinator
Came across this the other day: http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/soc...315584161.html
Quote:
Lacking local talent, Poland searched far and wide for players with Polish roots.The squad includes defenders Damien Perquis from Sochaux and Werder Bremen's Sebastian Boenisch, as well as midfielders Ludovic Obraniak from Bordeaux, Fortuna Dusseldorf's Adam Matuszczyk and Mainz's Eugen Polanski. All were either born or raised abroad.
Doesnt matter, if he wrote it initially its what he was really thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
Its only after measured thought he realised what he/it would sound like.
I'm not sure many parallels should be drawn with rugby. The players we have that aren't in effect born or raised here seem to come from Australia or New Zealand in the most part (Tom Court, Isaac Boss and Keith Gleeson prior to that, among others). While many English-born players seem to ignore very strong Irish roots; Nick Kennedy, Shane Geraghty, Declan Danagher and Kyran Bracken in particular.
Perhaps one conclusion to be drawn from this is the theory put forward by Joey Barton: if you're not good enough for England, go off and play for Ireland. That seems to be what the Australian-born players seem to do (a recent instance of a former Leinster reserve throwing his lot in with Australia may stand as an exception, can't remember his name). Whereas, the afore-mentioned England players have tended to stick with England. In this regard, Ireland and England offer a rugby player a fairly similar opportunity to play international rugby. If you're good enough to play for Ireland, by deduction you should be good enough to play for England.
Again, I'll re-iterate, it's very difficult to draw parallels due to the equal footing Ireland and England seem to stand on in rugby terms and many other factors.
If we were to lose Walters and Cox then it wouldn't be the end of the world (Keogh, Best, Stokes, Jon Daly are all doing alright at club level). Similar situation stands for Foley and St. Ledger (although he has acquitted himself well), and Westwood's doesn't play with any regularity due to given. McGeady would be the biggest loss from the group, and the emergence of McClean would come some way towards mitigating his loss.
Not that I'm intending to belittle the contribution of any of those players, just stating that they're cogs in the machine for Trap rather than standouts, in a team which does place value in all the cogs.
Or a Stephen Carr or Stephen Ireland - Irish born and bred and who decided they couldn't be arsed when they had plenty to give.Quote:
Originally Posted by Murfinator
Other countries & other sports? Yes - but relatively marginal. England, the world no. 1 test cricket team's most impoprtant players are South African. Spain's first trophy of their recent dominance was massively down to a naturalised Brazilian, Marcos Senna. Everyone does it and across many sports.
Or in other words, we used to be dependent on the granny rule, now its benefits are marginal. That is progress indeed. Not worth trumpeting but definitely worth noting. Now if only we could find a world class central midfielder - born in Tipperary or Timbuktu I couldn't care less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
3 of Germany's preliminary squad were born outside Germany - Lukas Podolski and Miroslav Klose are Poles and Cacau Brazilian. Klose's dad is German, Podolski's grandparents, while Cacau qualifies because he's lived in Germany since 1999.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Of Croatia's squad that was named today, Josip Simunic is Australian-born to Croat parents, in fact he never lived in Croatia until joining Dinamo Zagreb last year. Vedran Corluka, Nikica Jelavic, and Dejan Lovren were born in Bosnia, Ivo Ilicevic was born in Germany, Ivan Rakitic was born in Switzerland and played for their u21s, while Eduardo is Brazilian and became eligible for Croatia (like Cacau with Germany) by having lived there since 199.
Germany are a special case of late as the DFB refused to pick such players until relatively recently.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskaFox
Ireland is a country that people leave. I couldn't care a damn if any of our players were born and raised abroad so long as they have Irish blood in them. If they're ultimately a product of Ireland (and whichever other country) that's good enough for me. My nipper is half-Polish, born in Ireland. If someone in Poland suggested for a second he shouldn't play for their national team, I'd be appalled. (Though of course Ireland get first dibs)
I think its great that so many of our squad is Irish born, particularly when you compare it to the make up of the 1990 and 1994 squads. Is the fact that there are more Irish born players in the squad an indirect result of the successes of 88/90 and 94 - you can be damn sure it is!!
Not that it really matters imo. Someone has already mentioned Killer, but Sean St Ledger is the KK for the next 5 years. You will not find a player more dedicated to the cause and who is very much in touch with fans. A real favourite in my opinion. We are very lucky that in general the non Irish born lads that come in almost always seem to have a positive influence. For example, many were very unsure of Clinton Morrison back in the day and no one can doubt the commitment he put in the green.
Finally as someone else has mentioned above we are far from the only country to draft in 2G players and why not. If anything, it is reflective of our isle.
6 former league of Ireland players in the squad too. Just throwing it out there... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
I agree with this but could it not also have a lot to do with what Yard of Pace said above you? Ireland is a country people leave? There was a large number of people who left the country in the early 60's & 80's, as a result, in 2002 a lot of our players were born abroad or their grandparents left in the 60's.Quote:
Originally Posted by elroy
Same thing now, things have been better from the 90's onwards, 20 odd years later and there is a greater number of our team born at home. It would be interesting to see the make up of our squad in 20 years time. With mass emigration for the last few years(plus the grandparents who left in the eighties), could our squad in 20 years time see a larger number of 2G players?
I think the example of Balkan players is a good demonstration of how "nationality" is different to birthplace.
Though all of the 3 players above were born in Yugoslavia pre-civil war and the fact that they were born in places that were either majority Serb or Bosniak, I don't think there's a doubt were their loyalties ever lay.
Hey Stutts, out of interest would you care to ellaborate on that point? I know you dont have issues with 2g/3g from your many sensible posts on the matter and being 2g yourself but why would your preferencce be 2g's to be in the minority?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Less ammunition for the 'plastic' paddy bashers?
Reflects a better situation in Ireland? Economic, less emigration etc...
Reflects better grass roots footballing development in Ireland
Something else?
Back in a previous incarnation of this debate - p4 of the Zak Knight (sic) thread from 2004 - I posted the following (I don't know how to link specific posts):
generally I'd like the bulk of our squad to have no ambiguity about their Irishness. A rule of thumb, not a hard & fast rule I suppose.
To which green goblin replied:
i think you're right. there's a real temptation for us to get very dogmatic about this issue, and it's not a clear cut thing at all.
Bill Murray to Sigouney Weaver in in Ghostbusters: "I have a rule never to sleep with posessed women....Well, it's more of a guideline really".
I thought it was a great response.
But to answer your question: less ammo for the bashers and a better reflection on Irish football.
As a Glasgow-born (but Dublin reared) father to 2 London born and reared children I'm not exactly going to be dogmatically opposed to plastics joining the cause. In fact the best thing about the away trips is seeing just how closely the plastics identify and support us. Brilliant stuff.
I'm not exactly 2G!Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior
My family is Irish going back virtually forever but my dad was working in Glasgow for 4 years and I was born during his stint there. The family moved home in 1970 when I was 3 and then I moved to London for work and family reasons in 1999.
As a rule of thumb;)........with the 2g/3g supporters you find there is no ambiguity about their irishness - otherwise they wouldnt be in Yerevan, Skopje, timbuktoo supporting the BIG. With the 2g/3g players who have represented us it isnt nearly as clear cut. For every KK there are many who have only discovered or cared about their irishness once the topic of international football is raised.
If the 2g/3g players were more of the mindset of their equivalent fans then I would be jumping in to bed with Sigourney without hesitation.......
Here fishy fishy......Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I know I know but I thought I'd slip that in:D. It obviously matters to you though (the distinction I mean). You mentioned 'Dublin reared' in your first post, you followed it up with this one. You're 2G no biggy surely? Are we 2nd G Irish or 2nd Class Irish?
I guess my point was that 2g / 3g fans show that they can be as committed as any Irish born and bred fan (probably more than most) so the same can apply to the players too. However, the lower the 2g and 3g representation is, the less ambiguity exists about their motivation for playing or their commitment. Which more or less is covered in the "less ammo for the bashers" bit above.
Depends whether you're from Dublin!Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior
HAs leon best really been around 8 years? Sorry i just picked that up from your link stutts.
I think he likes to throw it in to give him more authority in these debates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior
No. Phew, So Im okay so, First Class Fenian.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
On a point of order.Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior
1st generation refers to the 1st generation born in the foreign land - one of their parents is Irish born.
2nd generation are the children of the 1st generation - one of their grandparents is Irish born.
At least, afaia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigrant_generations
Good old wiki backs up your point.
I think the distinction here is when users use the term generation, they mean like they might say the older generation. So 2nd generation would mean their parents were born in Ireland, and they were born in England for example.
In the states where they try re-enforce their lineage, ive seen it even go back to granny and grandad as still being 1st generation. But generally i've noticted anyway that in proper use over their 2nd generation would be grandparents.
You (We) have been saved by a technicality Stutts :DQuote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Where I come from 2g has always be used as term to describe those born in a foreign land to irish parents
so, we're in agreement then. He's back up for Keane, and has a chance of getting a run on the right?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/footba...ox-west-834863
Cox linked with a £2 million move to Swansea. I think it would be a great move for him, as it's pretty clear that Cox is a talented footballer who needs to get games under his belt.
WBA exercised a one-year extension in his contract today. Presumably, it is just their way of ensuring he doesn't leave on a free transfer but perhaps they are just waiting for a new manager to come in and make his own decisions.
Keith Andrews short-term contract is up at the end of June but the club says they may still make a new offer to him. Again, it may well depend on when a new manager is appointed.
http://www.wba.co.uk/page/News/0,,10366~2774175,00.html
Blackburn are interested in Simon Cox - http://www.joe.ie/football/football-...ship-0026946-1
Disappointing if he ends up dropping down a division, although it's understandable that he wants a decent run of games.
Best Cox up front?
Thats an intimidating prospect...
Linked with Blackburn again today....
SIMON COX is considering a €2.4m move to Blackburn Rovers after sitting out West Brom's friendly against Barnsley on Saturday.
Negotiations are ongoing between the clubs after an initial offer for the Ireland striker was rejected, but they are believed to be moving closer to a deal.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...d-3182881.html
Apparently it was Swansea that put the bid in for him. Not Blackburn!
Signed for Nottingham Forest. Another squad member playing in the championship but at least he'll get more games
Doubly interesting with me being from Nottingham, Forest if you did not know have some knew 'wealthy' owners. This seems like a sensible move from them, it does not look like they are going to throw pots of money at the club but rather try and take it to the next level and see how it goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by cornflakes
So Cox seems like the right sort of player for them, not too expensive I would imagine, Swansea were after him for £2 million.
So it looks a good deal for all parties, as you say he will get more games and it will improves Forests squad, which includes the mighty Andy Reid!
Would agree with that; as both an Ireland and Forest fan I am happy enough with this move.Quote:
Originally Posted by tricky_colour
He scored a beauty last night. We'll now see this season whether he has the ability Trapp thinks he has. We were never going to find out as he warmed the bench for WBA and by the odd cameo appearance for us.
goal online here: http://www.101greatgoals.com/gvideos...gham-forest-1/
Saw it on SSN. Very nice goal. Keep it coming Simon.
Provides a nice assist to Andy Reid to get Forest a goal.