Liverpool

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

Noli you say that you dont think that Alonso will be as big a loss as the papers make him out to be because even though he was good last season he wasnt the 2 seasons before that..... does that not coincide with Liverpool improving last season on the previous 2 seasons? As I see it Alonsos form last season was a major influence on why Liverpool were so close in the end

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Yeah Xabi was good last year,but i dont think he was the sole reason for the improvement in the team, I think stats can be twisted and turned for the benefit of each side of the arguement, i think Xabi didnt score enough goals or get enough assists.15 goals in 138 isnt a great return for a midfielder

I think the team was more balanced last year with Riera adding width on the left,i know his form dipped mid season but he found his form again,players like yossi and dirk getting some vital goals also made the team stronger.

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Originally Posted by Noli

15 goals in 138 isnt a great return for a midfielder

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It's pretty normal for a holding midfielder though, which Benitez essentially turned him into. I agree with your point about stats being turned this way and that to suit arguments, like Lucas playing in Liverpool's best performances last season for example, but I think Alonso was a key player and will be missed. Ye don't have many players that can retain the ball, even Gerrard gives it away constantly, generally when trying to create something when it's not really on. I have a feeling that Liverpool are going to have a slow start to the season and improve but it depends on United and Chelsea's starts as to how difficult it will be for Liverpool to get back into it.

Liverpool are the favourites to win the league in many pundits eyes and I concur with caution. Up until the departure of Xabi, I most definitely would have agreed given the manner in which the team finished the league but 2 issues concern me.

The departure of Alonso is a massive blow. He was excellent last season and for me, a massive part of the improvement in league form. If Liverpool cant plug the gap resulting from his departure quickly, it will lead to a poor start to the season and unease/disenchantment will cloud Anfield pretty quickly. If this happens, its bye-bye title time.

One other thing that people tend not to mention is how different Liverpool performed when they were on top in the league compared with when they were chasing. Pre-Xmas and during the new year period, Liverpool had to chance to pull away from the chasing pack but failed to do so. However, during their brilliant run of form in the 2nd half of the season, they were playing catch-up and thus had far less pressure on them. If they get ahead this season, can they pull away if the chance presents itself?

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

It's pretty normal for a holding midfielder though, which Benitez essentially turned him into. I agree with your point about stats being turned this way and that to suit arguments, like Lucas playing in Liverpool's best performances last season for example, but I think Alonso was a key player and will be missed. Ye don't have many players that can retain the ball, even Gerrard gives it away constantly, generally when trying to create something when it's not really on. I have a feeling that Liverpool are going to have a slow start to the season and improve but it depends on United and Chelsea's starts as to how difficult it will be for Liverpool to get back into it.

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Fair point about Lucas. Cost £6 million and classed as a flop. But as you say things can be turned around to suit whatever way you want. For example Berbaflop £30 million, Nani £18million. That's close on £50 million yet no
return or dare i say criticism.

By the way Alonso was no more a holding player than Jan Molby was. His main role was to create chances and get the ball moving quickly to the wingers and forwards which to his credit he did last season extremely well. But lets not get carried away with ourselves he also played in all the draws we had that cost us the title. Was at 26 games last season and one for example stands out Stoke at home when when for all his passes sideways and forwards it was an attacking midfielder we needed that day breaking into the box. Suppose your right though it's easy to turn it to make it look the way you want. For example Alonso has all of a sudden become the hearbeat of the Liverpool side of last season and Owen is a goalscoring genius.

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Originally Posted by Rafa B

For example Alonso has all of a sudden become the hearbeat of the Liverpool side of last season and Owen is a goalscoring genius.

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Both of those things have been said far and wide for quite a while now. Nothing sudden about them.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Both of those things have been said far and wide for quite a while now. Nothing sudden about them.

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I'd say a month is sudden enough. Now if they had been said over the last couple of seasons well then that would be different:p

I always considered Alonso a key player for Liverpool, even in the couple of seasons when he was supposed to be playing badly. Is he more replacable than Gerrard or Torres...yes, will he still be difficult to replace...yes.

I've nothing against Lucas by the way, it suits me fine that he's been poor in my opinion so far. Of course he could come good. Look at Fletcher at United, I wanted him shot for a good 3+ seasons at United but he has developed into a very useful squad player.

I wouldn't bee too eager to jump to Berbatov's defence either as his attitude doesn't dererve defending, but he has undoubted quality and I'd be slow to write him off completely. As for Nani I thought he had a relatively good first season with United, contributing fairly heavily from the bench and being involved in a lot of goals. His form seemed to dip in a big way last season and was rarely used. This will be a big season for him.

Michael Owen has always been a goal scorer supreme. It's very difficult to know what level he's at right now but I delighted with the gamble, if you could even call it that. He always came across as a good honest lad as well so I hope it works out for him.

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Originally Posted by reder

. However, during their brilliant run of form in the 2nd half of the season, they were playing catch-up and thus had far less pressure on them. If they get ahead this season, can they pull away if the chance presents itself?

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A team rarely goes from 3rd to being champions the next year, in 91 leeds pipped utd to the title and they learnt there lesson the following year they won it, its all about learning to deal with the pressure and not "crack up" If they dont win it next year,id expect a clear out and maybe even rafa leaving. I still think there a player or two short,a player that can create a goal out of nothing and a second decent quality striker

Was just checking some goal stats out there Essien has 11 goals in 102 games for Chelsea and in comparison Carrick has 9 goals in 102 games, thats not really a great return for midfielders is it? Scholes has 98 in 402 games which is much better

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Originally Posted by Rafa B

Fair point about Lucas. Cost £6 million and classed as a flop. But as you say things can be turned around to suit whatever way you want. For example Berbaflop £30 million, Nani £18million. That's close on £50 million yet no return or dare i say criticism.

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As a United fan and most United fans i know would say that they think Berbatov is a lazy b@stard and Nani is just not good enough. The only thing is that both players are members of a squad that won the League, League Cup and World Club Championships (or what ever its called).

As ive said pretty much every United fan i know has grately slated Brabatov and Nani but both players played their part in winning things last season so we have no reason to complain really.

Lucas clearly isn't as good as Alonso but at 6 million he is not bad value considering the money being spent on players these days. Give him another few seasons to prove himself i reckon.

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Originally Posted by Noli

Was just checking some goal stats out there Essien has 11 goals in 102 games for Chelsea and in comparison Carrick has 9 goals in 102 games, thats not really a great return for midfielders is it? Scholes has 98 in 402 games which is much better

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That was pretty much my point about Alonso, comparable enough to those other holding midfielders ie.Carrick and to a lesser extent Essien. Scholes himself has dried up almost completely the last few year. His decent ststs come from the Keane days where he could get into the box without any limits. His role has been much more reserved the last few years. They're crazy comparisions I think, almost like comparing Makelele and Lampard.

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Originally Posted by Roo69

Give him another few seasons to prove himself i reckon.

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You're very generous:D

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Originally Posted by Roo69

As a United fan and most United fans i know would say that they think Berbatov is a lazy b@stard and Nani is just not good enough. The only thing is that both players are members of a squad that won the League, League Cup and World Club Championships (or what ever its called).

As ive said pretty much every United fan i know has grately slated Brabatov and Nani but both players played their part in winning things last season so we have no reason to complain really.

Lucas clearly isn't as good as Alonso but at 6 million he is not bad value considering the money being spent on players these days. Give him another few seasons to prove himself i reckon.

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A Utd fan giving a good opinion without trying to get a dig in. Good post!

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Originally Posted by Rafa B

A Utd fan giving a good opinion without trying to get a dig in. Good post!

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Yeah that's cos he has a grasp on reality- Nani not good enough, Berbatov lazy. Lucas however ???

Sorry was that another one of those digs you were referring to. Ah shur you're well able, hardly a post goes by from your where we don't see two or three of these little pr!cks:D:p;)

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Originally Posted by Noli

A team rarely goes from 3rd to being champions the next year, in 91 leeds pipped utd to the title and they learnt there lesson the following year they won it, its all about learning to deal with the pressure and not "crack up" If they dont win it next year,id expect a clear out and maybe even rafa leaving. I still think there a player or two short,a player that can create a goal out of nothing and a second decent quality striker

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Would like to see Silva brought in myself.

Hmm not convinced about silva,watch a lot of spanish football, he fades in and out,he would offer us something different,but he reminds me of Garcia, very lightweight and gives the ball away too easy for my liking. Doesnt score enough goals either,hes a good player, but the next big signing has to be the one to lift us to no 19 so its important we get it right.

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Originally Posted by Noli

Hmm not convinced about silva,watch a lot of spanish football, he fades in and out,he would offer us something different,but he reminds me of Garcia, very lightweight and gives the ball away too easy for my liking. Doesnt score enough goals either,hes a good player, but the next big signing has to be the one to lift us to no 19 so its important we get it right.

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Think is Rafa's main target afaik. Would be happy myself if we got him.

Yeah i think he is rafas main target,skybet recently closed the betting on silva moving anywhere, but i wouldnt read to much into it. Theres no doubting silva would improve the squad with a bit more kwality.

Had to laugh at some of the sky sports pundits comments about the new season, how is Paul Merson still a pundit,he doesnt have a clue

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Originally Posted by Noli

Yeah i think he is rafas main target,skybet recently closed the betting on silva moving anywhere, but i wouldnt read to much into it. Theres no doubting silva would improve the squad with a bit more kwality.

Had to laugh at some of the sky sports pundits comments about the new season, how is Paul Merson still a pundit,he doesnt have a clue

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Does Rafa have another 25 million + to spend on players though? Silva would improve any squad in the Premier League, but i'd be surprised if he moved anywere this season.

I was just looking at your man Aquallani's (spelling) stats on Sky Sports earlier, seems you have spent an awful amount of money on a player who has missed so many games over the past 3 seasons, something like 60% of games have been missed through injury :eek:

From what ive heard from mates in Liverpool,there is money to spend,but just on the right player.

I wasnt aware that Aquilani had missed so many games, i work with a couple of italian lads and theyve told me he is a very very good player. I seen a couple of quotes from Aquilani saying that he has been assesed by the medical team and theyve gotten to the root of the problem and thats a weight off his mind. Once they get him fit hopefully he can stay that way.

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Originally Posted by Noli

I still think there a player or two short,a player that can create a goal out of nothing and a second decent quality striker

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Any favourites in particular? (practical ones)

If Aaron Lennon could sort out his final delivery hed be a fine player but at the moment i still think hes average, theres plenty of promise in Ashley Young think he got burnt out last season playing so many games as Villa have such a small squad.

A player that i would have liked is Brian McBride, he would have been a cheaper option holds the ball up wall offers a different plan b.

Theres plenty of options coming thru such as Pacheco,Dalle Valli and Nemeth but realistically we need someone out wide we need some one to offer a different option from kuyt. Kuyt really won me over with his development over the last 18 months,before he was just all effort and little skill but hes worked hard on that and gotten over his fathers death which affected his form badly.
Dortmunds Kuba could be an option.

Yeah Ashley Young and the rest of the Villa team really suffered from a small squad alright. Didn't know Kuyt had any personal issues of that nature. I rated McBride as someone who would do a job alright but even at his best I'm not sure he'd be good enough for what Liverpool are trying to achieve. He must be mid to late 30's at this stage anyway.

McBride is 34 or 35 i think he has since retired anyway,he would have been a decent squad player, a better/cheaper crouch. Villa have Bouma back after a lengthy lay off,i still think there going to struggle, as far as i know they havent replaced Barry and really need to get a few players in cos city and everton are sniffing around that 5th spot

[QUOTE=Noli;1211827]If Aaron Lennon could sort out his final delivery hed be a fine player but at the moment i still think hes average, theres plenty of promise in Ashley Young think he got burnt out last season playing so many games as Villa have such a small squad.[QUOTE]

There would be no fear of burn out with Young at Liverpool due to Rafa's famous rotation system :D

Wouldn't mind him or Lennon at United myself, 2 great young players who will only get better but will need to move to bigger clubs with better players to do so.

Im nearly sure Old whiskey nose made more changes per game last year than rafa,cant find the stats,heard McMullen say it today on today fm again.

Its all about when he makes the changes,rafa rotates fergies "rests" players :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Noli

Im nearly sure Old whiskey nose made more changes per game last year than rafa,cant find the stats,heard McMullen say it today on today fm again.

Its all about when he makes the changes,rafa rotates fergies "rests" players :rolleyes:

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old whiskey nose changes must have worked last season :D:D

Bit of luck helped him along the way too

Did anyone else look at the line up for todays game and think that is not a squad capable of winning the premiership?

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Originally Posted by Kildare Lad

Did anyone else look at the line up for todays game and think that is not a squad capable of winning the premiership?

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Team maybe, squad no.

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

Team maybe, squad no.

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Other way round surely? Just compare Liverpool's bench to Man Utd's and Chelsea's.

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Originally Posted by DmanDmythDledge

Other way round surely? Just compare Liverpool's bench to Man Utd's and Chelsea's.

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Im meaning that Pools first team might be capable but their squad isnt good enough

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Originally Posted by Noli

Im nearly sure Old whiskey nose made more changes per game last year than rafa,cant find the stats,heard McMullen say it today on today fm again.

Its all about when he makes the changes,rafa rotates fergies "rests" players :rolleyes:

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Yeah I'm sure United rotated far more than Liverpool last season but that's because they had/have a better squad. It makes sense to rotate when your bringing in Anderson for Scholes, Tevez for Berbatov, etc. It doesn't when you're bringing in N'Gog for Torres, Lucas for Alonso, etc.

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Originally Posted by Noli

Bit of luck helped him along the way too

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How so?

Liverpool were very poor today. Spurs looked stronger all over the pitch but I don't think there'll be too many teams leaving the Lane with full pts this season. Palacios is a class act and Huddlestone should play ahead of Jenas every time. I know there were a lot of raised eyebrows when United signed Owen but when you see Voronin coming on to save the day for Liverpool it makes me wonder why Liverpool weren't interested themselves. Suppose they might sign someone yet, they'll need to for sure.

I wasnt looking for a row when i made the comment about luck as teams that generally play good attacking football get the rub of the green,if your looking for a specific comment about luck you can look at the dubious penalty that utd got at home to spurs last season when they were two down and looked clueless,that gave them a foothold in the game and they destroyed spurs after that.

I didnt see the match today as im in work at the moment but the general feeling that i got that they were ****e today absolutely muck, i said it before that they needed someone with a little bit of magic to change a game and by the sounds of it they really need it, babel was awful from what i heard and the combination of Lucas/Mash is hardly going to be the most creative,so hopefully Aquilani will get fit as soon as possible or maybe even Gerrard drops back into 4-4-2 cm role,but that then exposes the weakness of having Voronin/N'Gog as part of the matchday squad.

Liverpool were in talks with Owen but what he wanted in wages the club wasnt prepared to match also the fact he wasnt going to be no 1 striker at the club as well didnt help his choice, but when you hear contact was made with him 6 months before the deal was done, maybe he had his mind made up from then, but one thing is for sure today exposed a few gaps in the liverpool squad and has burst all that pre season optimisim!

You heard right anyway. Babel was/is(??) absolutely shocking. Not in the game at all. Gerrard improved a bit in the 2nd half and poor Torres was absolutely starved up front. Carragher and Skrtel had a nasty class of heads in the first half and I think Skrtel was struggling after it. Great run by Glen Johnson for the penalty but completely brain dead by Gomes bringing him down. United generally get the rub of the green I'd be the first to admit that. Think the big teams do generally to be fair. Foster made a really good save from Benitez of all people near the end today to keep it at 1-0.

Foster looks like he has a good career ahead of him and has a great mentor in VDS to help him along, as for Ryan Babel if only someone could get inside that lads head and sort it out.

Rafa imo should either give him a go up front or sell him,hes so infuriating

Yeah playing him up front might do the trick alright. He was dubbed the new Henry at one stage if I remember right. Looks a long way off that at the minute.

If im not mistaken this will be his 3rd full season in the premiership and he hasnt gotten used to it and Rafa still doesnt know what to do with him,at the moment i think theyd be lucky to get 6m for him

how bad were they today? I missed the game and wish I didn't now!! Benitez was in charge of transfers this summer so if he doesn't win a trophy this season I'm sure he'll think back to July when he paid 17 million for Johnson instead of using that cash for a striker.

It would be his 3rd season alright. Just seen the interview with Rafa there. Bit sour they didn't get a penalty at the end, think it would've soft enough but there was contact alright. Just before it actually there seemed to be a clear push on Crouch in the box at the other end. Kind of one you'd get outside the box.

Rafa has cut his cloth its his team,only Gerrard & Carra are left from Istanbul its his team so he can have no excuses. If he is sour,he may get over it and blow those cobwebs of the team and have em ready for Stoke