Lisbon Treaty

I think we need to stand up for ourselves as a people. It is clear that the government are not going to do that for us. Ireland never votes against anything in Europe no matter whether it is in our interests or not .The government are not even happy with the deal Mandelson is negotiating at the WTO talks but they won't do anything about it, they are far more interested in being mr. Sarkosy's best friend. I keep thinking of neville chamberlain and his policy of appeasment when I think of Irish governments in Europe. I'm not comparing the EU to Nazi Germany here(although both are quite good at building roads) but just don't ever expect an Irish government to side against the general will of the EU in its peoples interests.

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Originally Posted by lilywhite stu

they are far more interested in being mr. Sarkosy's best friend.

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Sarkozy is possibly the most sceptical of the european leaders about the Lisbon treaty. He was elected shortly after France's right wing (and strangely, certain left wing extremists e.g. Communist party) rejected the Constitution as a protest vote against Chirac, by appealing to those right wing-ers.

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Originally Posted by lilywhite stu

The government are not even happy with the deal Mandelson is negotiating at the WTO talks but they won't do anything about it,.

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Please explain why we are not happy with the WTO deal? :confused:

Ok fair point about Sarkosy. I picked the wrong leader as an example but there's others I could have gone for.

WTO deal is going to seriously mess up the argiculture industry in Europe. Affecting our farmers, the section of the population most in favour of the EU.

I think it is interesting that the countries most in favour of federalsiation are France, Germany and Italy. France wants it because they don't want Germany to attack again(fair enough since they have lost 3 wars to Germany in 150 years). the Germans are appear quite ashamed of their nationality(war guilt whatever you want to call it)so have less hang ups about their soverignty and are scared of their own power. Italy is an absolute mess of a country and are more than happy to give anyone else a go at running their country since they haven't managed to do it themselves.

Since we have none of the above problems I think that most of the enthusiasm for the EU in Ireland comes out of anti-British sentiment. it makes little sense otherwise that they are so Eurosceptic and we generally aren't? I think it just feels good to side with other countries against the Brits but it is probably a fairly immature reason for wholeheartedly supporting Brussels in everything it does.

Sorry France only lost once but they got invaded 3 times which isn't nice!

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Originally Posted by lilywhite stu

I think it is interesting that the countries most in favour of federalsiation are France, Germany and Italy. France wants it because they don't want Germany to attack again

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you are surely not serious.

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Sarkozy is possibly the most sceptical of the european leaders about the Lisbon treaty. He was elected shortly after France's right wing (and strangely, certain left wing extremists e.g. Communist party) rejected the Constitution as a protest vote against Chirac, by appealing to those right wing-ers.

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He was elected 2 years later.

Despite that, in reality he's a Chirac clone, as they come from the same political side. He's not the answer to France's problems, never mind the EU's.

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Originally Posted by lilywhite stu

WTO deal is going to seriously mess up the argiculture industry in Europe. Affecting our farmers, the section of the population most in favour of the EU.

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While I have no problem supporting the agriculture industry to an extent (donlt mind subsidising rural economies) but their importance to the Irish economy is minimal. It was correctly pointed out by the EU President that it accounts for 4% of the Irish economy so need sacrificing the rest of us for a small section of the economy.

The food processing sector which obviously depends on our agricultural industry is worth much more than 4% however. It is clearly not fair that Irish farmers should invest so much in food standards and safety and then allow other countries to sell what they like into Europe. Thats pure double standards. There are important social reasons for supporting rural communities. A large proportion of farmers are at this stage too old to leave the land or retrain for a different job so they need continuing support or else we will be faced with terrible social deprivation in rural Ireland.

The original motivation behind the European project was the unification of France and Germany in order to avoid war and instead become the driving force of a modern europe. Thats textbook stuff. Maybe i was being dramatic but just because France and Germany want to be married together does not mean we all have to joined together on the same terms.

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Originally Posted by pete

While I have no problem supporting the agriculture industry to an extent (donlt mind subsidising rural economies) but their importance to the Irish economy is minimal. It was correctly pointed out by the EU President that it accounts for 4% of the Irish economy so need sacrificing the rest of us for a small section of the economy.

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Agriculture is one of our most vital industries, which took heavy punishment from the F+M outbreak, and is worth billions to our economy. It's more important to our economy than Britain's.

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Originally Posted by mypost

Agriculture is one of our most vital industries, which took heavy punishment from the F+M outbreak, and is worth billions to our economy. It's more important to our economy than Britain's.

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No, its not. Its utterly unprofitable, ridiculously over-subsidised, and the few remaining in the industry are there either because they're holding out for a good offer for their land, or their land is worthless.

Only 5% of our economy is Primary Industry, and that includes fishing, farming, mining and other resource gathering. It might be a nice romantic idea to picture Ireland as an independently sustainable island on the edge of Europe, but well, its not.

Saying it is more important to us than to Britain is a bit facetious; its about as profitable, but their Secondary and Tertiary sectors are even more profitable than ours, so its smaller in comparison again, as low as 0.5% in England and reaching a "high" of 2.4% in Northern Ireland.

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Originally Posted by lilywhite stu

The original motivation behind the European project was the unification of France and Germany

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Did I miss that part of history? I thought the idea was to create an interdependence, originally through the ECSC, that made war an unattractive prospect rather than unity. I think you're deliberately being flippant and emphasising words like 'unity' and 'federalism' to distort the picture.

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Originally Posted by Gavin Zac

With rubbish like "Lucinda Creighton wants a European Army. She's Voting Yes to Lisbon. Are you?" embarrassment doesn't seem to be something Libertas are worried about.

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Well done for pointing that out, Gavin. I cringe every time I see that infantile piece of argument on billboards.:o

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

Yes but I'd rather Irish MEP's Voted for by the Irish people had more of a say in Irish Affairs than French MEP's voted for by French People

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Your TDs handle Irish affairs and your MEPs handle European Union affairs. Since when have French MEPs voted on Irish affairs?:confused:

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

Brilliant Post!!. I've been saying for a long time that Brussels wants a "United States of Europe" but from what you say about Kentucky and Indiana it seems that even this won't satisfy the Eurocrats. our Democratic Right to have our say on how our country is run is being eroded by this treaty. Membership of the EU could soon be the "New Colonialism" with foreign politicians making the decisions that effect our daily lives more and more and the power of our own Elected Government having less and less power at home, let alone in Europe. If you want to remain in a Democratic Society VOTE NO!!

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That's such narrow scope of thought. It's like giving out that a man from Offaly will be making all the major decisions that effect Dublin. The European Union is a body which we are a constituent part of and share in its decision making process. In democratic fashion as a small part of the Union we can only have so much of a say. Irishmen and women have an equal chance as any other EU citizens of participating to the fullest extent taking up its offices and positions. Currently Charlie McCreevy holds a respectable commission and Pat Cox was president of the European Parliament.

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Originally Posted by holidaysong

..... the farmers who just sit around and wait for the cheque from Brussels.....

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Jesus wept :rolleyes:


Any chance of poll on this please ?
(The Treaty, not whether farmers sit on thieir asses all day counting their free euros).

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

That's such narrow scope of thought. It's like giving out that a man from Offaly will be making all the major decisions that effect Dublin. The European Union is a body which we are a constituent part of and share in its decision making process. In democratic fashion as a small part of the Union we can only have so much of a say.

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Before, Europe has only been used to decide things, after the Irish avenues were exhausted. With the Yes vote, it will be Europe first, Ireland second.

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Originally Posted by mypost

Before, Europe has only been used to decide things, after the Irish avenues were exhausted. With the Yes vote, it will be Europe first, Ireland second.

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I'm afraid I don't really see your point, its a bit vague. Things? Avenues? It?

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

I'm afraid I don't really see your point, its a bit vague. Things? Avenues? It?

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Mypost is voting 'No' in the upcoming referendum. Are you?;)

Ideas! :D

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9351/lib7bul4.jpg
http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/7550/chinavo3.png
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/2...nerflaglk3.png

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Ideas! :D

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9351/lib7bul4.jpg
http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/7550/chinavo3.png
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/2...nerflaglk3.png

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Well done!:D

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Ideas! :D

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/9351/lib7bul4.jpg
http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/7550/chinavo3.png
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/2...nerflaglk3.png

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Very good. Those billboards don't give Libertas any credibility.

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Originally Posted by KevB76

Any chance of poll on this please ?
(The Treaty, not whether farmers sit on thieir asses all day counting their free euros).

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I thought the EU now paid farmers NOT to work? :confused:

I don't object to some subsidy to farming but suggesting it is vital to the Irish economy is ludicrous. If it was so important why does it need to be subsidised? Vital to rural life is fair enough. The WTO trade talks will not scrap CAP and given they have already stated doesn't that mean this Treaty has no affect? The big problem with CAP is it is fine for the EU to pay for but no chance we would pay for ourselves directly.