Northern players declaring for the Republic

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Nail on the head again crc.

The, entirely noble, representation of the flag, was left in tatters when a vicious campaign was waged against those fellow Irishmen and women represented by one third of the flag.

"Brits Out" was the cry.

It will never represent my community in any shape or form.

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'brits out' - but sure you;re Irish arent you? :rolleyes: now do YOU get it?

let me hit the nail on the head again, the tricolour is not the flag the players are asked to play under... the unionist st george's cross with crown etc is... its bull****.

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Originally Posted by Merc67

it is mutually exclusive. where would someone irish stand on the occupation of ireland by britain? i think we know what side. now, where would you stand - oh wait you were the occupier., you are not irish, you are a 'brit' in ireland...

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Merciful Jesus! :eek:


This thread was moving along in a thoughtful manner, but has now taken the almost inevitable turn 'south' (so to speak). It can only get worse, I'm outa here.

Slán fellas!

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Originally Posted by Merc67

'brits out' - but sure you;re Irish arent you? :rolleyes: now do YOU get it?

let me hit the nail on the head again, the tricolour is not the flag the players are asked to play under... the unionist st george's cross with crown etc is... its bull****.

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Yes, I am, proudly, Irish - and, proudly, British.;)

I sure get it.

I have offered my opinion on flags - I can do no more.

[QUOTE=Not Brazil;563673]
I am a "Brit" born of Ireland.
[QUOTE]
how is that?
you just woke up and decided to be British or are you of occupier blood?

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Originally Posted by crc

Merciful Jesus! :eek:


This thread was moving along in a thoughtful manner, but has now taken the almost inevitable turn 'south' (so to speak). It can only get worse, I'm outa here.

Slán fellas!

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listen, im not a raving ranter... its a point im making.

can one also be palestinian and israeli? is there anything more patronsingly insulting to the irish people than to say you're british and irish ffs.

well we wrecked your country and your culture and your language, but now that ive been here for a while im going to say that my 'irish' is as valid as yours, but oh, yeah, you're still beneath britain so you're british as well.

see this whole British and irish thing, i wonder which is the more dominant...:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Lots of people in Northern Ireland view the Tricolor in the same way.

Interesting that Northern Irish rugby players are tolerant enough to stand under a Tricolor at Landsdowne Road, ever though it does not represent them one iota.

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There's an enduring image of Willie John McBride's last game for Ireland. Some guy ran on to the field and wrapped a tricolour around his shoulders. Willie left it on, took the gesture for what it was worth and strolled off the pitch to a loud ovation.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Northern Ireland (the entity) is, rightly or wrongly, part of the United Kingdom. The only way that changes is at the ballot box...As for flags - the official flag of Northern Ireland is the Union Flag. The IFA actually remove the Union Flag from Windsor Park for international fixtures...Having said all of that, none of it will change Northern Ireland's constitutional position within the Union.

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So how does this change anything? Scotland is in the UK and their team's followers are mostly anti-unionist. Many Rangers supporters refuse to have anything to do with them. There's been a thread about Catalan and Basque XIs. Both are in Spain. Both are centres of anti-unionism. The excuse that NI is in the UK and must wrap itself in the paraphanalia of unionism is rubbish.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Firstly, I am proudly Irish and British. That's not an "impossibility", it's a stone wall fact. Dail Minister, Liz O'Donnell, was acknowledging this very real identity within the last few days. A welcome and overdue recognition...Our very shirts confirm our Irishness. On there is a Celtic Cross, Shamrocks and the name of our Association - the IRISH Football Association.

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Unionism is a combination of being Irish and British, but it relegates one national identity to that of a regional, birthplace form of patriotism and the other to their true nationalism. It is the true nationalism to which they wish their country to physically belong (BTW: This isn't a religion thing, although in NI it lends itself mostly to one religion or the other)

Therefore NI is a region of a greater nation. That's why all the Unionist hissy fits on OWC. People who are born in NI have no right to play for this foreign country called the ROI, because they were born in NI, and there is no negotiating that unless any of their parents and grandparents were born in this foreign country. Hence your response below.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I look at the team I watch in green as being representative of Northern Ireland. I was born in Northern Ireland, both my late parents were born in Northern Ireland, I live in Northern Ireland, I work in Northern Ireland and my two children were born in Northern Ireland. I support Northern Ireland. It's very simple... It's a decision based on my place of birth. Belfast, Northern Ireland. A "political decision" would be one whereby I turned my back on my home Association because I do not recognise/support/agree with the entity called Northern Ireland.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I fully accept that a sizeable minority in Northern Ireland do not recognise/support/agree with the entity called Northern Ireland, and seek it's demise.

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What nationalists/republicans seek is unification with the south, not necessarily the demise of NI.

Northern Ireland as an entity remaining as it is, is not a prerequiste to unification. I'd fully support NI retaining huge autonomy in return for Irish unification.

Sinn Fein's 'Eire Nua' policy of the sixties and seventies called for a federal Ireland based on the four provinces. Ulster had nine counties, but I'm sure through negotiating it could be knocked down to six, four or two if politicians wanted. DeValera also spoke of NI remaining intact as a part of a federal Ireland. Neither of the above are normally referred to as West Brits. Both options would also leave the NI team alone (although an island as small as Ireland having two teams is IMO ridiculous).

As you accept, playing for the ROI is a political choice to play for one's nation. As far as I know, Kerry don't have a big following in the 6C so we can discard that 'glory-hunting' sh*te of some people.

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Originally Posted by gspain

Alan Kernghan was no joke.

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I thought he was a good player before the Spain game. He then seemed to put on a bit too much weight. Also our best looking player, erm, according to my, erm, sister. :o

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Originally Posted by crc

By suggesting that being Irish and British are mutually exclusive you are ensuring that the 'Ireland' team (as you and many others call it) does not, in fact, represent everyone in Ireland.

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What's wrong with that? The England team doesn't represent everyone in England, let alone the UK. It doesn't represent me. Do you think that the 'Ireland' team represents Johnny Adair (actually remembering his brief release from prison in 1998, NI doesn't represent him either judging by the England shirts him and his mates were wearing).

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Bearing in mind that the Northern Ireland team will always represent the entity that is Northern Ireland, what changes do you suggest that would enable all young players born in Northern Ireland to represent Northern Ireland with pride?

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Full recognition of both communities at matches. Flying both the UJ or 6C flag and the Tricolour or at the very least the flag of Ulster. Seeing you insist on GSTQ, then have the SS there aswell. In other words include the nationalistic trappings of both communites. Having a some Brian Kennedy love song as an anthem is poitnless. There's nothing offensive about what the Tricolour stands for, but even someone as moderate as you sees it as second only to the swastika in offensiveness, so why should any nationalist accept anything that enforces the British occupation NI.

Now I know you, and Ealing Green, are p*ssing yourself now, but you can p*ss away the next time another of 'your' players opts for 'us'. (sic.)

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Lots of people in Northern Ireland view the Tricolor in the same way.

Interesting that Northern Irish rugby players are tolerant enough to stand under a Tricolor at Landsdowne Road, ever though it does not represent them one iota.

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I'd say the same should be done for the rugby team. Both flags. Both anthems (The Sash instead of GSTQ). No more whinging and no more Ireland's Call.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Those footballers need to decide whether football or politics is their driving force.

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Why? Isn't this more 'telling people what to do'? I like my footballers to have some brains and principles, not just an overdose of testosterone.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Northern Ireland has a "british feel" to it, because it constitutes part of the United Kingdom.

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True, hence the defections. But it doesn't have to have. See post above on Scotland, Wales, Euskadi, Cataluna, etc.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Whatever.:rolleyes: I am a British citizen, born and bred on the island of Ireland. Go figure.

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I'm an Irish citizen born and bred in England. I feel no loyalty to this country. I do not support any of its sporting teams or wars that it likes to campaign in the name of 'freedom.' The Union Jack is more offensive to me than the swatika because it is an irredentist rag which displays its occupation of my country. I would never, ever call myself English or British, not even to point score on an English football forum.

[QUOTE=Merc67;563684][QUOTE=Not Brazil;563673]
I am a "Brit" born of Ireland.

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how is that?
you just woke up and decided to be British or are you of occupier blood?

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I am British, born on the island of Ireland.

I will always be British, and always Irish - proud of my identity.

My late parents, of whoms blood I am, were similarly both born on the island of Ireland. They too were British and Irish.

You really don't get it, do you?:confused:

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Lopez,
Following another thread, I've come to realise that it's futile for me to debate any such topic with you, not just because I risk allowing myself to get drawn into endless controversy, to the nth degree of pettiness, but also because it seems to me that the style and content of your posts inevitably say more about you and your opinions than I ever could.
So by all means, keep posting, indeed keep posting in response to my posts if you like; just don't expect me to reciprocate.

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So you were just making it up about Sinn Fein persuading these two lads into playing for their country? :rolleyes: Now that says 'more about you and your opinions than I ever could.' However I will keep responding to, question, and expose any fairy tales, libel and lies that you post.

BTW, there's an ignore button you can use. Feel free!

Why has this trend descended into a Northern Ireland British or Irish argument? I personally don't care if EalingGreen and Not Brazil consider themselves British - that is their right if they choose. Equally I don't understand the gripe they have against some players born in Northern ireland representing the Republic if they consequently don't see themselves as British.

I don't believe the other argument that the FAI are operating clandestine operations in the North and brainwashing loyal young players to abandon their country of birth in an X-Files like conspiracy plot is the reason their players are 'defecting' so to speak. The whole Britishness of the NI team is undoubtedly the reason that the majority of these young players don't feel it represents their interests.

[QUOTE=Not Brazil;563697][QUOTE=Merc67;563684]

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I am a "Brit" born of Ireland.


I am British, born on the island of Ireland.

I will always be British, and always Irish - proud of my identity.

My late parents, of whoms blood I am, were similarly both born on the island of Ireland. They too were British and Irish.

You really don't get it, do you?:confused:

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would you be both palestinian and israeli too? this is a joke. if you are basing it simply on geography then your entitled to make such a weak argument, but the ignorance with which you are throwing the argument around makes me think of those yanks who claim ulster scots heritage:)
how can you be both an occupier and the occupied? oh no, youre not the occupied are you? ffs.
your claim is based on the patronising, superiority complex of the english (the ones who really started up this british ****, and to whom all others in the UK are inferior, really) that ireland is part of their land.
it is not, it may have been for a time, but it is not now. you are one or the other fella, though you want to be both for whatever reason...

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Originally Posted by youngirish

This British attitude doesn't exist to any large degree in any other part of the UK (I've lived in South East England for the last 8 years and young people here consider themselves to be English far more so than British). Why it persists in Northern Ireland to such a strong extent I don't fully understand.

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because they want to show they are NOT Irish.

yet, here, on this site we have a right pair demanding they are Irish too. it;'s a strange one:)

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Originally Posted by Merc67

your claim is based on the patronising, superiority complex of the english (the ones who really started up this british ****, and to whom all others in the UK are inferior, really) that ireland is part of their land.

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A bit unfair man. I've lived in the South East of England for the past 8 years and the English don't have this hang up about being British to anywhere near the same degree as NI unionists. They are English first and foremost, British is a term the younger people in particular identify themselves with in a far decreasing capacity.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

A bit unfair man. I've lived in the South East of England for the past 8 years and the English don't have this hang up about being British to anywhere near the same degree as NI unionists. They are English first and foremost, British is a term the younger people in particular identify themselves with in a far decreasing capacity.

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yes, you are correct. my point was the idea of 'britain' was based on english expansion in the middle of the last millenium. its no coinceidence that the hq's of anything 'British' are in london or england.... scots and welsh that i know hate the term and being called british, but english folk dont hate it one bit and happily use the union flag. my point was not a slight at the english.

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Originally Posted by antrimgreen

Irish when it suits you to be, and british when it suits you. No doubt if you were visting foreign countries you would be saying you are Irish. You have one nationality what is it Not Brazil Irish or British??

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(Can't speak for 'Not Brazil', but my opinions are closer to his than yours, so here goes)
I'm Irish. I was born in Ireland and spent the first 23 years of my life there. With my accent, I couldn't deny being Irish even if I wanted (which I don't). If you want to know more about what kind of an Irishman I am, I am a Northern Irishman. I am no more or less proud of this latter designation than of the former.
As an Northern Irishman, I was born into a part of the United Kingdom. Personally, that suits my political inclination, though I accept that many of my fellow Northern Irishmen and women differ: so be it - it's not worth fighting over (imo).
When it comes to sport, my chief passion is football and my favourite team is my national team, NI.
Of course, not every aspect of supporting the team is exactly how I would have it if it were down to me (I would change our anthem to something peculiarly Northern Irish, for example); however, with a moderate degree of tolerance, I am overall immensely proud of the team and its support and I would hope that with an equal degree of tolerance, all people from NI, of whatever background, could feel the same pride, should they wish to.
For those who cannot, whether they be Republicans who cannot countenance any "NI" team, or "Loyalists", for whom the team is not "British" enough, then they may support the ROI or Ingurland respectively; that must be their choice (and their loss, imo).
I am also interested in other sports. When it comes to rugby union, I am proud to follow Ireland. When I attend Lansdowne, there are certain aspects which do not meet with my entire approval. These include the flying of the Tricolour (both Officially by the IRFU and unofficially by some of the fans) and the playing of The Soldiers Song. This is because they only represent one of the two territories which go to make up the team (and it isn't mine!).
However, when the music starts, I don't see it as any great hardship just to stand up, shut up, then sit down - I'm there for the rugby, after all. (In fact, I am much more aerated by O'Sullivan's continued selection of that prat O'Gara over David Humphries, but that's by-the-by!)
When it comes to Athletics, I happily follow the GB & NI team in the Olympics (or just NI at the Commonwealth Games), though I keep an interested eye on other Irish athletes like Sonia O'Sullivan (or is she Australian these days?)
As a fan of Test Cricket, I follow the England team and will be especially interested if Ed Joyce should force his way into the team.
And during the Ryder Cup, I was rooting for Europe all the way (Big Darren in particular)

So there you have it. You may consider all this to be inconsistent, or even hypocritical - I'm not greatly bothered. But consider this: whenever anyone says to me: "You aren't Northern Irish, you're 'Irish'", my response is: "You're not 'Irish', you're European".
Which, at its logical conclusion, takes us back to when we used to write our address on our Primary School Exercise Books, starting with our townland and finishing with "The Earth", "The Solar System", "The Universe".

Oh, and to answer your question, when I'm abroad and am asked where I come from, I answer that I'm from Northern Ireland. And although it doesn't often happen, if they don't know where that is, I simply show them my Passport...
(In England, when I'm asked what part of Ireland I'm from, I usually answer: "The West". That always stumps them!;) )



"Ireland is an island 300 miles long
And 100 miles thick.
It is divided into four Provinces:
Ulster, Munster, Linfield and Celtic...":D

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Originally Posted by Merc67

my other point abuot the tricolour is that northern teams are not asked to play beneath it...why didnt you take issue with that?

as for the St Patrick's cross - that's an outdated representation is it not? is the union flag not a flag that evolved. thought so.

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In football (which is what we're talking about, after all), players from the ROI are asked to play under the flag of the ROI (Tricolour) and players from NI are asked to play under the flag of NI (Stormont Banner, to give it its correct designation, i think).

I've never found this a particularly difficult concept to understand. More importantly, neither have the players, including my own favourite, Gerry Armstrong, who played football for NI under the NI flag at Windsor for many years. Previously he had played Gaelic football under the Tricolour at Croke Park in his youth. (Indeed, he will almost certainly have played GAA under the Tricolour in Belfast, as well. It didn't do him, or me, any harm, come to think of it!)

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Originally Posted by Merc67

the irish and british people i have issue with are those born on the island of ireland. i could go into it but im not really sure i want to rant and it prob doesnt belong here....

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This man does not speak for me -nor, I suspect, many others here.

Now can we swing back on topic and away from those determined to tell us who we are, who we're not, what constitutes Irish and what it can't include....

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Merc67

where would someone irish stand on the occupation of ireland by britain? i think we know what side. now, where would you stand - oh wait you were the occupier., you are not irish, you are a 'brit' in ireland...

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As an Irishman, I consider that Ireland would have have been a very different place had Dermot McMorrough not invited Strongbow over to Ireland to invade and occupy in the late 12th Century.
Whether it would have been a better or worse place is open to debate, but I try not to get too bothered about that, since I wasn't around then, so I don't consider I have any particular responsibility.;)

http://marxists.org/archive/marx/wor...chronology.htm

Anyhow, I do tend to take exception to the call "Brits Out", since love them dearly as I do, I don't especially wish to have to put my entire family up over here in London for more than a few days around Christmas! :D

I cant say I care much. Ireland is the Irish team. Northern Ireland is the Northern Irish team. would wish them both to do well to be honest. The actual politics of the situation I couldnt care less about. and I think that is the opinion of most people I know. And I would say like most people I know as well I have been looking at some of the northern Ireland results with a bit of envy lately. please god we can get our act together and both grace a tournament at some stage. now that would be progress....:)

I don't know if this was posted before but it seems Northern Ireland was not Neil Lennon's first choice......

'I would love to have had the chance to play for the Republic at Lansdowne Road, it would have been great, but it never became an issue I had to think about,' he confirms in a statement that is bound to capture many a headline.

'I was playing for Crewe when the chance to play for the Northern Ireland under-21s came along and it was a great opportunity for me. It raised my profile big-time and it was a very proud moment for me every time I played for my country. I would never knock it, even though there were obviously some problems along the way.

'Jack Charlton was the Ireland manager at the time, but he never made any approaches to me, so I was honoured to represent Northern Ireland and by the time people were asking me whether I wished I was playing for the Republic it was too late. Big Jack was very good at finding players who qualified to play for Ireland back then, but he must have been off fishing the day someone called him and said Neil Lennon might be worth having a look at.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns...rope25&cc=5739