NI Passports

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Originally Posted by gonzo

Ignoring the usual predictable jibes, if you really believe Paisley & his ilk are 'Irish'(& more importantly, them themselves!), then they really have got you fooled. What next, Gerry & co. come out to pledge their allegiance to the old German lady?!

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Did you see the BBC Northern Ireland programme about Saint Patrick in March? Paisley spoke at length about his understanding of Patrick's writings and his concern for the spiritual welfare of the Irish people.

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Originally Posted by gonzo

It's all about propaganda;Though accept there may be a gradual mood shift towards Unionists being more conducive towards Nats.& what they perceive they represent, which is good & should apply vice versa.

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What's about propaganda?

Why would Paisley talk about having an Irish identity as a propaganda exercise? It runs the risk of alienating his own hardline support.

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Originally Posted by gonzo

Obviously, you think I know 'nothing', but trust me, I've seen both nationalism & unionism up close.......it ain't pretty or nice.

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Where?

What does this mean?

I knew politicians from both traditions in the North, I find it hard to make any sense of your comments.

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Originally Posted by gonzo

(What does it matter to you anyway? Try not to belittle others on here generally, :rolleyes: just for expressing an opinion.)
Though I firmly believe the former is the reaction to the latter.
Not that I'm not desperate for it to change. Here's being optimistic;in the meantime expect the unionists to hold on desperately to their totems of citizenship, eg.their passports!

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A passport is not a "totem" of citizenship - it's a legal document that defines your citizenship.

Gonzo,

Let me assure you that I am proudly Irish & British.;)

Obviously, not a concept that you find easy to accept.

Perhaps you view me as a second class Irishman?

Perhaps you feel that unionist types are inferior to you?

I've news for you, I am as much an Irishman as you are.

That's something you should really try to deal with, rather than getting bogged down in a myopic and bigoted notion of what constitutes "Irishness"

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Let me assure you that I am proudly Irish & British.

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Do you hold citizenship of both states then?

I'm not fanning the flames - I'm just interested to know.

:ball: PP

All Nordies can hold citizenship of both the RoI and the UK

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Originally Posted by gonzo

Yeah, right.....the latest buzz 'slogan';a contradiction in terms & essentially b*llox. If you want to be one or the other fine. But not into such :rolleyes: conveniently ambiguous 'nationality'.

I'd say different. & not Irish, if you want to be British. No problem with that however.
Though 'inferior' is a bit harsh; would call most unionists deluded, if only for perpetuating past inequality & generally dragging their feet towards any meaningful change.

Hmm. Lose the 'Brit' fixation & might take this view seriously.
As for myopia, would suggest the Unionists not sharing power with democratically elected representatives of substantial minority of indigenous people represents the worst sort of blurred vision!

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There is absolutely no contradiction. Very simply, I am proudly Irish & British.

An Englishman is English and British.
A Scotsman is Scottish and British
A Welshman is Welsh and British.

I'm an Irishman, and British.

I am not in any way deluded. I am absolutely clear about who I am and what I am.

My Britishness is not a "fixation". It is a reality.

I am an indigenous Irishman. I was born and bred on the island of Ireland.

I am happy to share power with nationalists. In fact, I would actively welcome it.

Maybe you will listen to me telling you what I am, as oppossed to you telling me what I'm not?:eek:

Oh, and aren't I the type of person that you claim to wish to be "united" with in a 32 county state?:eek:

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

There is absolutely no contradiction. Very simply, I am proudly Irish & British.

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I'll ask again since you appear to have missed my question in responding to Gonzo. Do you hold citizenship of both states then?

:ball: PP

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Originally Posted by crc

The gross irony here, of course, is that a British passport doesn't provide conclusive evidence that a player is entitled to represent Northern Ireland either.

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Just on this. it absolutely does. Anybody with a British passport can represent any of England, Scotland, Wales or Northern ireland lawfully in international football. Its only each federation that has their own eligibility requirements. (see channel islanders Le tissier, Le Saux and trevor Wood :) for examples)

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Originally Posted by Plastic Paddy

I'll ask again since you appear to have missed my question in responding to Gonzo. Do you hold citizenship of both states then?

:ball: PP

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Sorry, I missed your question.

No, I don't.

Whilst I have only a British Passport at present, I have previously travelled on an Irish Passport.

Do Irish Passport holders born and bred in Northern Ireland get to vote in Irish Presidential elections? Do they pay Irish state taxes? Do they contribute in any meaningful way in Dail debates? Do they get a say in Republic Of Ireland affairs? Indeed were they born in THAT state/juristiction?

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Sorry, I missed your question.

No, I don't.

Whilst I have only a British Passport at present, I have previously travelled on an Irish Passport.

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Thanks for your answer. To my mind, that also clarifies your earlier point about the English, Welsh and Scottish who can hold those identities whilst being part of the greater whole that is British. However, given that Ireland enjoys full statehood (whereas the examples you cite do not, merely being constituent parts of the UK), surely logic dictates that someone from Northern Ireland must actively hold Irish citizenship to be considered Irish? Parity of esteem; parity of citizenship, no?

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Do Irish Passport holders born and bred in Northern Ireland get to vote in Irish Presidential elections? Do they pay Irish state taxes? Do they contribute in any meaningful way in Dail debates?

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Through their representatives British passport holders from NI certainly don't contribute in any meaningful way in Parliamentary debates either; NI MPs being tolerated at best and regarded by most within the Westminster machinery with suspicion and as something of an anachronism (unless crucial votes depend on their co-operation or acquiescence, as happened more than once during John Major's term as Prime Minister). Just watch Peter Snow's map on any election night as the red, blue and yellow unfold everywhere else in the UK whilst the differing shades of green and orange covering NI sit in light relief for at least two days awaiting the results from "the province". You have a completely different electoral system and political paradigm, grafted only onto the British structure purely for the sake of political expediency. Not that I'm in any way questioning its legitimacy; as a pragmatist and a realist I recognise that we are where we are and all together, so to speak, whatever ideological standpoints we each hold as individuals.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Do they get a say in Republic Of Ireland affairs? Indeed were they born in THAT state/juristiction?

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Now now, you know that's a spurious line of enquiry. In any case, it's a legitimate (although somewhat antediluvian) argument that, thanks to Articles 2 and 3, anyone born on the island pre-GFA was born in the state (of Ireland). And anyway, I've been paying my taxes to Brenda and her agents all my working life rather than to Bertie and co. but that makes me no less of an Irishman and nor should it those Irish who, by accident of birth, were born in Northern Ireland. And as you well know those same (northern) Irish were denied a say for generations in Northern Ireland affairs through Unionist hegemonic rule. But, like I said earlier, we are where we are. Let's hope for the sake of future generations that a working relationship between all sections of "the community" in Northern Ireland can be forged for the greater good.

:ball: PP

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Originally Posted by gonzo

Think you'll find claims to 'British-ness' is restricted to the geographical island of Britain.
& met plenty of Scots & Welsh over the years, only too keen to lose the 'British' tag.;)

So why then contradict yourself?

& Good. Perhaps the unionist community can persuade the DUP to likewise?!

Anyone suggesting I'm not? & if you're Irish (lose the 'Brit' obssession, FFS), great.

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My Passport says on the front in big letters "The United Kingdom Of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"

Inside, beside my photograph, under a heading "Nationality", it says "British Citizen".

My place of birth is recored also, and it says "Belfast".

I have not contradicted myself. I am very clear about who and what I am. It is you who is struggling with my identity.

I have little or no time for the DUP. I find their hypocrisy, and their fundamentalist sectarian bigot of a party leader, abhorent.

I do not have a Brit "obsession". I am British. Fact.

I would never dream of insulting a nationalist from Northern Ireland by calling them British. Why do you insult me about my identity?

I am, what I am. Unapologetically and unashamedly.

Plastic Paddy,

" However, given that Ireland enjoys full statehood (whereas the examples you cite do not, merely being constituent parts of the UK), surely logic dictates that someone from Northern Ireland must actively hold Irish citizenship to be considered Irish? Parity of esteem; parity of citizenship, no?"

Being born on the island of Ireland gives me my right to identify Irish. It's as simple as that.


"Through their representatives British passport holders from NI certainly don't contribute in any meaningful way in Parliamentary debates either"

What do you mean by "meaningful way"?

More or less "meaningful" than say the Welsh and Scottish nationalist party MP's?

"Not that I'm in any way questioning its legitimacy; as a pragmatist and a realist I recognise that we are where we are and all together, so to speak, whatever ideological standpoints we each hold as individuals."

Good.

"Now now, you know that's a spurious line of enquiry. In any case, it's a legitimate (although somewhat antediluvian) argument that, thanks to Articles 2 and 3, anyone born on the island pre-GFA was born in the state (of Ireland). And anyway, I've been paying my taxes to Brenda and her agents all my working life rather than to Bertie and co. but that makes me no less of an Irishman and nor should it those Irish who, by accident of birth, were born in Northern Ireland. And as you well know those same (northern) Irish were denied a say for generations in Northern Ireland affairs through Unionist hegemonic rule."

We are what we are by accident of birth. The past has gone. We are trying to build a better future.

And, whatever happens, me and my family will always be proudly Irish and British.


"But, like I said earlier, we are where we are. Let's hope for the sake of future generations that a working relationship between all sections of "the community" in Northern Ireland can be forged for the greater good."

Absolutely.

Better relations will not be forged by nationalists/republicans telling me on one hand that I am a delusioned Irishman, and then on the other denouncing my Irishness.

Me and mine are the British presence in Ireland. "Brits Out" won't work. We're going nowhere. Born and bred on this island. We are here to stay, and we will stay as equals.

Please accept that Irishness is a much broader thing than some myopic folk propogate.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Being born on the island of Ireland gives me my right to identify Irish. It's as simple as that.

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Of course and I fully respect your right to do so. To my mind though it seems like a declaration of convenience unless one takes it to its logical endpoint, namely the acquisition and retention of citizenship.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

What do you mean by "meaningful way"?

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For starters, the sponsorship and promotion of Private Member's Bills, attendance and participation in Parliamentary debates and votes, Select Committees and Commissions. I expand on this below.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

More or less "meaningful" than say the Welsh and Scottish nationalist party MP's?

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That's an interesting analogy, particularly given the separatist angle to the presence of Welsh and Scottish nationalists. I'd expect NI MPs, particularly of the Unionist persuasion, to participate more in Parliamentary process, but in my reasonably frequent attendance in the House of Commons (when they let the hoi-polloi in, that is) I've yet to notice anyone other than IKP make their presence felt. (And yes, I do know that NI representation in the HoC is diluted due to the non-attendance of SF MPs, but that's one for another day).

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Better relations will not be forged by nationalists/republicans telling me on one hand that I am a delusioned Irishman, and then on the other denouncing my Irishness.

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Enough said.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Me and mine are the British presence in Ireland. "Brits Out" won't work. We're going nowhere. Born and bred on this island. We are here to stay, and we will stay as equals.

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Then why not treat the twin aspects of your identity equally by actively pursuing Irish citizenship? ;)

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Please accept that Irishness is a much broader thing than some myopic folk propogate.

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Indeed, and happy to; after all, as you so well demonstrate, it's not just about the forty shades of green and all that.

I often wonder that, had the version of Irishness promulgated by the Gaelic League and taken up by the IRB and their descendants been more plural and inclusive (and secular!), whether we'd have had the Solemn League and Covenant, Ulster proto-nationalism or even a Northern Ireland. The last hundred years on the auld sod could have been very different, that's for sure.

:ball: PP

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Originally Posted by gonzo

Don't deny what you say.

Though now you are saying you are British(& presumably a unionist? Only mention the DUP, as they have the electoral mandate, whether we like it or not.);fine, but please make your mind up, one way or other? :eek:

It's probably more offensive inferring certain people from the North are 'Irish', when not only do they not want to be, but is an insult to those who died for the right to Irish citizenship in the first place!

Think we'll have to disagree about the wording on the Brit.passport

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I'm not denying anything. What are you talking about? It's YOU who is in denial about MY identity.

I am proudly Irish and British. What part of that is not sinking in?

My mind is made up about my identity. I am extremely happy and comfortable with my identity. Whatever you declare your identity, I will fully respect that too.

Regarding the wording of my Passport, there's nothing to "disagree" about.

I have told you what it says, verbatim.

That's not open to debate, it's a statement of fact.

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Originally Posted by gonzo

Agree with the above point. But the second needs to address the fact that the indigenous population now in the minority, are not even accepted by their unionist contemporaries. I understand the sanctimonious cr*p about 'terrorism', but we all have to draw a line eventually. Maybe one day, the party who represent the majority of the majority will grasp this..........

If they do, maybe it will be easier to accept as 'equals', people who generally subcribe to a somewhat different ethos currently.

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What's all this "indigenous population" guff that is espoused primarily by PSF and it's supporters.

I was born on the island. So were my late parents. So where all of my grandparents, as were all of their parents.

Is that "indigenous" enough for you?:rolleyes:

My view is that I am happy to share power with members of the minority population in Northern Ireland. As equals.

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Originally Posted by Plastic Paddy

I often wonder that, had the version of Irishness promulgated by the Gaelic League and taken up by the IRB and their descendants been more plural and inclusive (and secular!), whether we'd have had the Solemn League and Covenant, Ulster proto-nationalism or even a Northern Ireland. The last hundred years on the auld sod could have been very different, that's for sure.

:ball: PP

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Indeed.

There are many dirty hands on the island, and many people throughout history could have done things a lot better.

For my part, I believe that we wouldn't have had thousands of deaths and injuries, copious deep rooted mistrust and a deeply divided people, if certain sections of unionism had of afforded some very basic civil rights to their nationalist neighbours in the late 60's.

Some within unionism are stuck in the past. They haven't realised yet that 45% of the population will not be treated as second class citizens ever again.

I think the penny will drop before long, and that we'll have a full power sharing executive up and running.

The mistreatment of nationalists in Northern Ireland in no way justifies the subsequent "campaign" waged by republicans. A campaign which ultimately has delayed any prospect of a truly "united" Ireland by at least a generation.

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Originally Posted by gonzo

There's no such thing, just the terminology of the confused & deluded. Despite what you say;the majority in the North, feel one way or other.

& the wording is somewhat antiquated.......

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Some identify as purely Irish.

Some identify as solely British.

Some, like myself, identify as Irish and British.

You don't have to feel "one way or the other". That's a myth. I am both.

Why some unionists are in denial about their "Irishness" is quite beyond me.

That said, all three identities are valid and equally respected.

You should read the GFA.;)

What is antiquated about the wording on my passport?

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Originally Posted by gonzo

That's big of you.

At the very least, it's owed as a symbol of respect.

No-one says outsiders should haven't a say in the North;the trouble is their arrogance in not even recognising how they became a majority by default.
If they really wanted to integrate with the locals they could start by apologising for their actions, it's taken them far too long to make the effort;better late than never, I suppose.:(

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It's not "big" of me at all. Never mind this "symbol of respect" nonsense, it's the right thing to do, and that why I support power sharing.

Who do you want to apologise to whom?

I can assure you that I make no apology for who or what I am.

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Originally Posted by Plastic Paddy

surely logic dictates that someone from Northern Ireland must actively hold Irish citizenship to be considered Irish? Parity of esteem; parity of citizenship, no?

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Er, no. NB can quite logically point to life-long residence in Ireland, and his citizenship of a country that includes part of Ireland, without it following that he need seek citizenship of the other part of Ireland. The parity you mention isn’t really relevant, is it?

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You have a completely different electoral system and political paradigm

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What’s a political paradigm? More simply, we get to vote in British elections, but we don’t get to vote in Irish Republic elections.

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but that makes me no less of an Irishman

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No-one’s saying you’re any less of an Irishman. But you’re saying (maybe tongue in cheek, I suppose), that effectively I can’t be an Irishman unless I get Dublin citizenship. Isn’t your attitude just as “antediluvian” as Gonzo’s?

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I've yet to notice anyone other than IKP make their presence felt

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I believe Sylvia Hermon (UUP) is the most frequent NI MP in Westminster votes, at least in the 2001-05 Parliament.


Overall, Gonzo seems to be doing a pretty good job winding up everyone else with his mix of rambling anecdote and Provo-by-numbers rabble-rousing. But it's a bit lazily unrealistic of other nationalists to wring their hands and say 'you'll scare the Prods away'. Like, as if unionists are strongly unionist because of some illiterate stirring it on a message board?

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Originally Posted by Plastic Paddy

Of course and I fully respect your right to do so. To my mind though it seems like a declaration of convenience unless one takes it to its logical endpoint, namely the acquisition and retention of citizenship.:ball: PP

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Isn't it pretty clear that Not Brazil is an Irish citizen. It is his birthright, being born in Ireland. There is nothing for him to acquire or retain, no more or less than anybody born in the 26 counties.
Being born in the 6 counties part allows him more options.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Er, no. NB can quite logically point to life-long residence in Ireland, and his citizenship of a country that includes part of Ireland, without it following that he need seek citizenship of the other part of Ireland. The parity you mention isn’t really relevant, is it?

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Yes it is. What I was trying to test was the level to which NB was prepared to go to assert his Irishness having stated so clearly that he is Irish and British in equal measure. I'm not doubting his sincerity for a second, but it smacks of pandering to the crowd to hear someone so clearly label both parts of his identity as equal but subsume one completely in the other when it comes to activating citizenship.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

What’s a political paradigm?

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Construct, system and methodology. The parties you vote for. The way government is organised. The voting systems that are used.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

More simply, we get to vote in British elections, but we don’t get to vote in Irish Republic elections.

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But it's how you vote and who you vote for, that are so different to anywhere else in the UK, setting you apart politically in such fundamental ways. As I said in a previous post, it's an incongruity born of expediency. But we are where we are; it's where we all go from here that counts now.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

No-one’s saying you’re any less of an Irishman.

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They might if they heard me speak. ;)

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Originally Posted by Gather round

But you’re saying (maybe tongue in cheek, I suppose), that effectively I can’t be an Irishman unless I get Dublin citizenship. Isn’t your attitude just as “antediluvian” as Gonzo’s?

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On the surface, yes, but I'm playing devil's advocate (trust me on this). You can't live with your eyes open in a city like London, like I do, and not be moved by the way that so many cultures share, largely civilly, such a confined space. It puts modern Ireland to shame that the people that make up two such similar traditions are still fighting over the minor differences that exist between them, rather than celebrating the commonalities. Maybe our children and theirs will make more headway still in sorting this mess out.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Overall, Gonzo seems to be doing a pretty good job winding up everyone else with his mix of rambling anecdote and Provo-by-numbers rabble-rousing. But it's a bit lazily unrealistic of other nationalists to wring their hands and say 'you'll scare the Prods away'. Like, as if unionists are strongly unionist because of some illiterate stirring it on a message board?

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That would be to make the cardinal mistake of defining Unionism exclusively in terms of what is isn't, rather than what it is. Just like viewing NB's Irishness exclusively through a Dublin-centric nationalist prism and forgetting the massive contribution made by Protestantism and more specifically Ulster Protestantism to the economic, social and political development of the island of Ireland and of the two countries that share it. Or indeed viewing his Britishness from a picket line outside a Gaelic ground in Chicago.

:ball: PP

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Originally Posted by gonzo

If he has an Irish passport..........

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You don't seem to be able to get anything Gonzo.
"Only Irish citizens may obtain an Irish passport"
Passport application form, Note 5 (citizenship).

Citizenship is his birthright. A Passport is every citizens right to have if they so choose after providing evidence, a birthcert etc.

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Originally Posted by gonzo

Only because some people(not necessarily posters on here), have their own antiquated position on integration of nationalists into power-sharing in the North.
When the unionists :rolleyes: (inc.The D.U.P.) illustrate otherwise, they will stop being criticised! However, knowing some of their mindset, am highly sceptical there is any great enthusiasm for this.

Broadly I agree with PP, I would like to see an integration of all cultures on the island into a single state.
Wouldn't call it 'rabble-rousing' though;just an alternative opinion from a Protest-ant perspective.........:p
After all, some of us are more enlightened than the usual suspects.;)

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You seem not only to have issues with my Irishness, but also the fact that I am a unionist.

Let me put this very simply for you.

I am not a unionist because I want to **** you and other nationalists off, or to deny you anything.

I am a unionist because I feel my best interests, and those of my family, are best served as things stand by being part of the union.

I understand and respect that nationalists don't think that. I am happy to listen to the nationalist side of the story.

The constitutional question has been settled, courtesy of the GFA.

It is absoltutely clear on the subject.

How do you reconcile your hatred of unionists with a proclaimation that you wish to be "united" with them?

Do you really want to be "united" with them?

Are you involved in a Peace Process or a Retribution Process?

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Originally Posted by gonzo

If he has an Irish passport..........

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I am Irish by birthright.

I was born in Northern Ireland, which forms part of the island of Ireland.

so will the IRFU be insisting Ulster players now get an irish passport?

FIFA's decision is a disgrace, i would consider it a great insult for someone to tell me i am a british subject, i was born in ireland making me irish, ive only ever been to britain a few times