20 Teams, 2 Divisions, 1 National League

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Originally Posted by brendy_éire

I'd say that Cockhill is different area than the two Letterkenny clubs, TBF, who themselves aren't far from Ballybofey.
As pointed out, that's the problem with an invitational league. Can the FAI turn them down simply because they're close to another club? Probably not.

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Googlemaps tells me that Buncrana is 1km closer to Derry than Letterkenny is to Ballybofey. So if proximity to an existing club was to be an issue, it would affect them all.

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Originally Posted by Shinkicker

Re, chimney corner, when they played in the center of Antrim town and we're in the old B division they often had 500 or more at home matches. When they moved 1 mile out of the town things started to go down for them and it went down quickly. They now play in the Ballymena Provincial League and are struggling each year.

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It's also not credible to call the old Irish league B Division a 'senior' league in any real sense btw. It was pure non-league, and also not part of a pyramid.

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Originally Posted by nr637

Anyone follow the Tom Safford LOI Group Chat and the 'The Irish Football Pyramid - or lack of (part 1 to 4).
I think its on Facebook & Extratime.ie if you are interested. Good read as I wasn't aware of it.

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What's the gist?

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

From reading about the convoluted set-up in Leinster, I kinda understand why the FAI are feckin' about with a Third Tier, instead of sorting out the base of the pyramid first and building upwards.

"Byzantine" doesn't even come close.

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In fairness, a number of people on here have tried to tell you this on a number of occasions in response to your various lectures about the LOI not having a pyramid. It's much easier to talk about on forum than it is to deliver in reality.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

It's also not credible to call the old Irish league B Division a 'senior' league in any real sense btw. It was pure non-league, and also not part of a pyramid.

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I never mentioned senior nor the pyramid system , I purely commented on their demise, how quickly it happened and their current situation.

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Originally Posted by Shinkicker

I never mentioned senior nor the pyramid system , I purely commented on their demise, how quickly it happened and their current situation.

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I never said you did. It was addressed to EalingGreen, who made the orignal post/reference to them. That's what your post was responding to (with my post an addiiton to it).

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

I never said you did. It was addressed to EalingGreen, who made the orignal post/reference to them. That's what your post was responding to (with my post an addiiton to it).

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Well, you should have responded directly to the EG post directly and your post made absolutely no addition to mine. Your use of the "not credible" would imply I use false information or I'm not to be trusted. Both of which are untrue. Please be more selective of you use of words.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

It's also not credible to call the old Irish league B Division a 'senior' league in any real sense btw. It was pure non-league, and also not part of a pyramid.

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"The 2008–09 season was spent in the IFA Interim Intermediate League, but [Chimney Corner FC] gained admission to the Championship in 2009, when it was split into two divisions (Corner entering Championship 2). The club remained at this level until 2014, when they resigned to join the Ballymena & Provincial League."

And if you look at the recent history of the Championship, you will see that is exactly what it was/is, a part of the pyramid, incl CCFC for their final few years at that level:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIFL_Championship

The wider point being (a ) that the town of Antrim has had Senior representation, if only short-lived, (b ) if CCFC or any other local club can get their act together to reach Senior status there is as process for them to do so, and (c ) the operation of a proper pyramid requires contant re-evaluation and reorganisation if it is to continue to offer the intended benefits.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Googlemaps tells me that Buncrana is 1km closer to Derry than Letterkenny is to Ballybofey. So if proximity to an existing club was to be an issue, it would affect them all.

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Dundee FC and Dundee United FC:

https://scontent.fbhx1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...Fw&oe=67A5D510

Proximity needn't matter a damn providing the clubs in question are/were properly organised and sustainable within their own resources and support.

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Originally Posted by Shinkicker

Well, you should have responded directly to the EG post directly and your post made absolutely no addition to mine. Your use of the "not credible" would imply I use false information or I'm not to be trusted. Both of which are untrue. Please be more selective of you use of words.

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Honestly buddy, you need to get over yourself here :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Why have large towns like Antrim and Newtonabbey never had a senior club in the north? Is it solely a matter of chance, a simple twist of fate, a mystery even?

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I meant to add that as well as everything else, Newtownabbey has never had, and Antrim town currently doesn't have, a Senior club in the NIFL because no-one has ever considered parachuting a new or existing club from either into the pyramid.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

I meant to add that as well as everything else, Newtownabbey has never had, and Antrim town currently doesn't have, a Senior club in the NIFL because no-one has ever considered parachuting a new or existing club from either into the pyramid.

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So you're basically answering your own question here. The places you mentioned haven't had an LOI club because either no-one has tried to get one admitted into the league, or they tried and weren't successful. It realy is as simple as that.

It really feels like everything you say on this issue has an air of smug hectoring and superiority over the whole pyramid issue. The LOI is where it is, and those who understand football in the country understand why that is. It seems that even yourself is now finally grasping the complications involved in changing the entire structure. Yet change is still slowly but surely happening. So please spare us the constant jibes and snipes about it all in the meantime. It will just take our league longer to be as amazeballs as everything up in the north clearly/allegedly is :cool:

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

It really feels like everything you say on this issue has an air of smug hectoring and superiority over the whole pyramid issue. The LOI is where it is, and those who understand football in the country understand why that is. It seems that even yourself is now finally grasping the complications involved in changing the entire structure. Yet change is still slowly but surely happening. So please spare us the constant jibes and snipes about it all in the meantime. It will just take our league longer to be as amazeballs as everything up in the north clearly/allegedly is :cool:

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Football in NI and ROI share history, tradition and similar cultures etc, which is why I enjoy reading and contributing to some, though by no mean all, sections of this forum. (That and a nerdy interest in these things generally).

As such, I have never denied or downplayed those several advantages which the LOI has over the NIFL - eg drive towards professionalism, advances in Europe, rising attendances etc - and would hope the latter could learn lessons from them.

But such an exchange is not all one-way: most notably when it comes to the establishment and operation of a pyramid, something which the IFA have managed quite well in NI, in stark contrast to the FAI's efforts as discussed in this thread.

On which point, I have no doubt that my contributions must bore the majority of posters but some, at least, seem keen to engage - see eg 'Elfman' #93 or 'pineapple stu' #106. But whereas they do so in an interested and reasonable way, you seem to take any criticism personally i.e. my "jibes and snipes etc" are in reality your over-sensitivity and unwillingness to accept you may sometimes get things wrong - eg Bangor being part of Belfast, Australia/Brazil having rural populations, Antrim never having had a Senior club (just 3 examples of many off the top of my head).

So may I ask that you stop "playing the man" and instead "play the ball"?

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Football in NI and ROI share history, tradition and similar cultures etc, which is why I enjoy reading and contributing to some, though by no mean all, sections of this forum. (That and a nerdy interest in these things generally).

As such, I have never denied or downplayed those several advantages which the LOI has over the NIFL - eg drive towards professionalism, advances in Europe, rising attendances etc - and would hope the latter could learn lessons from them.

But such an exchange is not all one-way: most notably when it comes to the establishment and operation of a pyramid, something which the IFA have managed quite well in NI, in stark contrast to the FAI's efforts as discussed in this thread.

On which point, I have no doubt that my contributions must bore the majority of posters but some, at least, seem keen to engage - see eg 'Elfman' #93 or 'pineapple stu' #106. But whereas they do so in an interested and reasonable way, you seem to take any criticism personally i.e. my "jibes and snipes etc" are in reality your over-sensitivity and unwillingness to accept you may sometimes get things wrong - eg Bangor being part of Belfast, Australia/Brazil having rural populations, Antrim never having had a Senior club (just 3 examples of many off the top of my head).

So may I ask that you stop "playing the man" and instead "play the ball"?

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I look forward to the next in your series of posts which essentially translate as "Hey everyone - the LOI should have a pyramid. It's really shiit that it doesn't, and ater all - how hard can it be to set one up anyway? So I'll just keep on telling you that at every opportunity". Because as sure as night follows day, those posts will just keep on coming

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

I look forward to the next in your series of posts which essentially translate as "Hey everyone - the LOI should have a pyramid. It's really shiit that it doesn't, and ater all

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The LOI can survive without a pyramid, that's obvious.

But it must be equally obvious that it would be better for everyone if it had a pyramid, otherwise why would 53(?) of the other 54 Associations in Europe bother to have one?

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

how hard can it be to set one up anyway? So I'll just keep on telling you that at every opportunity".

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I have never said it's easy. But it's precisely because it is hard that the FAI looks to me to be ducking the issues and going for something which creates an illusion of progress in this area

So that the "solution" which the FAI are choosing is no more likely to work than the 'A' League.

Or as a wise person once said: "If you set off from the wrong place, don't be surprised when you end up at the wrong destination."

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

The LOI can survive without a pyramid, that's obvious.

But it must be equally obvious that it would be better for everyone if it had a pyramid, otherwise why would 53(?) of the other 54 Associations in Europe bother to have one?


I have never said it's easy. But it's precisely because it is hard that the FAI looks to me to be ducking the issues and going for something which creates an illusion of progress in this area

So that the "solution" which the FAI are choosing is no more likely to work than the 'A' League.

Or as a wise person once said: "If you set off from the wrong place, don't be surprised when you end up at the wrong destination."

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And so it continues......:embarrassed:

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

And so it continues......:embarrassed:

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Yep - I play the ball while you keep playing the man.

Anyhow:

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

[Insert Last Word here]

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

The LOI can survive without a pyramid, that's obvious.

But it must be equally obvious that it would be better for everyone if it had a pyramid, otherwise why would 53(?) of the other 54 Associations in Europe bother to have one?


I have never said it's easy. But it's precisely because it is hard that the FAI looks to me to be ducking the issues and going for something which creates an illusion of progress in this area

So that the "solution" which the FAI are choosing is no more likely to work than the 'A' League.

Or as a wise person once said: "If you set off from the wrong place, don't be surprised when you end up at the wrong destination."

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The A league was good as a concept but failed on several levels.
However fixing the Provincial leagues at the same time as creating a 3rd tier can lead to a proper pyramid.

Right now the jump for Junior and Intermediate clubs to Senior football is too big. As mentioned yourself in relation to Cockhill. The demands on the field and off them in terms of infrastructure is too high.

However on the other side, clubs in the A league couldn't be relegated, so a poorly performing club couldn't find their level.

There was too many reserve teams last time, and we didn't have the potential of clubs who've been entering League of Ireland underage leagues for several years entering a senior side.

I know you personally don't like the idea of Mayo FC, Carlow-Kilkenny, Kildare etc joining, as you don't see them as natural clubs.
But these are areas with an interest in football, and like most rural areas in the Republic, gravitate to thinking along county lines.

They all have more of a chance of doing well than Castlebar Celtic, Evergreen FC or Newbridge United.

Series of articles looking at the current football system across the country.

We have anything but a football pyramid at present..

Leinster - https://extratime.com/articles/35365...-4---leinster/

Connacht - https://extratime.com/articles/35139...-3---connacht/

Ulster - https://extratime.com/articles/35088...rt-2---ulster/

Munster - https://extratime.com/articles/35033...t-1---munster/

Thanks for this cobhlad, good to have them all in one place.

I enjoyed reading them, hoped for more detail but just the fact that info about the provincial leagues is becoming more widespread is a positive.

Side note - does anyone know the facility requirements for teams in the MSL or LSL? I assume the new National League will have the same requirements.