Netherlands V Republic of Ireland - Saturday, 18 November 2023 - Euro 2024 Qualifier

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

That's a bit mad.

Saturday on its own would have been overlooked had it not been the culmination of lots of poor results of course.

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What's also a bit mad is he thinks Saturday night was a good game of football.

"We played Holland the other night, one of the best teams in Europe. People will have their own opinions on it but I thought it was a good game of football,".

"No question, Holland were the better team. We fought to the end of that game, we didn't create enough, we know that, and we defended for our lives when we needed to. It wasn't like we lost 4-1 to Wales or got hammered in Cyprus or Macedonia the other night, it was a tight game in Holland that we lost 1-0 and deserved to lose. It was one of those games, I think a bit of perspective on that,"

He said he had sought job assurances but wasn’t given any. I’d read his comments in that context. He’s swinging after the bell. It’s over.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Saturday on its own would have been overlooked had it not been the culmination of lots of poor results of course.

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I’m by no means trying to defend the now indefensible but I thought it was interesting that in the last few days Armenia took their total to 4 points from Wales (they should have won late on Saturday too though Wales were throwing men forward), Azerbaijan beat Sweden 3-0 on Thursday (lost 5-0 yesterday though) and Luxembourg beat Bosnia 4-1. Luxembourg actually got 17 points from 10 games in qualifying.

So by themselves any of the poor results against teams of this stature aren’t to be unexpected, but the overall string of results was pretty poor. I honestly felt we were turning a corner around the time we beat Luxembourg away but that and Scotland were about as good as it got.

Has he already forgotten that we lost to Luxembourg?

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I’m by no means trying to defend the now indefensible but I thought it was interesting that in the last few days Armenia took their total to 4 points from Wales (they should have won late on Saturday too though Wales were throwing men forward), Azerbaijan beat Sweden 3-0 on Thursday (lost 5-0 yesterday though) and Luxembourg beat Bosnia 4-1. Luxembourg actually got 17 points from 10 games in qualifying.

So by themselves any of the poor results against teams of this stature aren’t to be unexpected, but the overall string of results was pretty poor. I honestly felt we were turning a corner around the time we beat Luxembourg away but that and Scotland were about as good as it got.

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hard for a lot of people to take on board that the likes of armenia and Luxembourg (two teams we should be beating but have no devine right to beat) arent as bad as they were 10/20 years ago. these results have been coming down the tracks for a country like Lux given the good work theyve done in the underage ranks over the past 5/6 years. we were desperate in the home defeat to them no getting away from it but people need to stop treating them like they are a current day Liechtenstein or San Marino or a Macedonia from 20 years ago. really grates on me that people are still going on like losing to Lux at home was the most humiliating thing of all time.

Luxembourg is a very small country; while we we have no divine right to beat them, we really have to be asking ourselves hard questions if we're losing to them, and finishing a campaign on the same points as them as we did in 2022 qualifying. Their U21s got one point in their last qualifying campaign (against us...) and three points in the campaign before that. Have they really been doing anything special at underage level?

Azerbaijan has a lot of oil money and have put it into their clubs, but they don't seem to have built a strong culture there yet. There's a couple of clubs have reached the groups but I don't think they've particularly strong academies.

Sweden are a shambles at the moment (they have let their current manager go btw). They gave two early goals away to Azerbaijan (both individual defensive mistakes) and just couldn't get going after that. The third goal was a lob from distance with Azerbaijan playing with 10 men.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Luxembourg is a very small country; while we we have no divine right to beat them, we really have to be asking ourselves hard questions if we're losing to them, and finishing a campaign on the same points as them as we did in 2022 qualifying. Their U21s got one point in their last qualifying campaign (against us...) and three points in the campaign before that. Have they really been doing anything special at underage level?

Azerbaijan has a lot of oil money and have put it into their clubs, but they don't seem to have built a strong culture there yet. There's a couple of clubs have reached the groups but I don't think they've particularly strong academies.

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their 17s + 19s made big leaps over the last number of years. regularly getting thumped by big scores before then , now some what competitive. point is they arent a san marino yet loads on here still talk about them like they are a minnow who should easily be swatted aside. fact is the vast majority of the weak nations from 10/15 years ago have all improved to a certain extent apart from Lietch and San Marino. While as everyone knows we've gone backwards. Hopefully a new manager can improve things but ive never been as down on ireland as i am now. weve nothing coming through in midfield. a new manager should be better at in game decision making + changes than kenny, who was awful at it, but if we dont have better options than cullen and molumby then we'll continue to struggle .

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Originally Posted by ifk101

He said he had sought job assurances but wasn’t given any. I’d read his comments in that context. He’s swinging after the bell. It’s over.

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This was always the problem with keeping him on after Greece. He was a dead man walking and would be facing questions about his reign while still having to keep defending it in some way. In the best way he could. It was bound to get awkward and/or bitter. Imagine being a player in the squad the last couple of days, I’d say it’s absolute misery.

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Originally Posted by Jd2793

their 17s + 19s made big leaps over the last number of years. regularly getting thumped by big scores before then , now some what competitive. point is they arent a san marino yet loads on here still talk about them like they are a minnow who should easily be swatted aside. fact is the vast majority of the weak nations from 10/15 years ago have all improved to a certain extent apart from Lietch and San Marino. While as everyone knows we've gone backwards. Hopefully a new manager can improve things but ive never been as down on ireland as i am now. weve nothing coming through in midfield. a new manager should be better at in game decision making + changes than kenny, who was awful at it, but if we dont have better options than cullen and molumby then we'll continue to struggle .

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I’d be fairly optimistic about the future – new manager dependent. Think we do have an improving group of players. As for midfield, there’s a lot more to get out of Smallbone and Andy Moran can hopefully develop into a competent player for us. Cullen has come into recent criticism, but I think this is more due to our shape and the space we are giving up. It’s too much ground for Cullen to cover quite simply. If we become more compact, the midfield should be better for it. But the players are there to build a strong defensive base, we have pace in wide positions, and we have a striker that’s going to score if we get the ball to him. With a relatively young squad profile, there is potential to be considerably better than we currently are.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Sweden are a shambles at the moment

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They missed a hilariously bad open goal from right under the bar early on saturday I think.

yeah i dont think you are wrong with most of your points tbf. i am a bit skeptical with smallbone though. doesnt seem like he has the physical attributes for where we'd like to go? again could be down to space he is being asked to cover and infairness we always seem open. if only you could combine molumbys energy with cullens football. still think we need some sort of a no8/6 to come through soon if we are to push on.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

This was always the problem with keeping him on after Greece. He was a dead man walking and would be facing questions about his reign while still having to keep defending it in some way. In the best way he could. It was bound to get awkward and/or bitter. Imagine being a player in the squad the last couple of days, I’d say it’s absolute misery.

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It makes very little sense,whatever way I look at it, particularly after the FAI dug in on clauses which delayed the contract on this part of his tenure. The only way it makes sense is for Hill & Canham especially, it will now be borderline impossible their first appointment to the role doesn't bring improvement they can point to. Maybe I'm way too cynical at this stage.

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Originally Posted by Jd2793

their 17s + 19s made big leaps over the last number of years. regularly getting thumped by big scores before then , now some what competitive. point is they arent a san marino yet loads on here still talk about them like they are a minnow who should easily be swatted aside. fact is the vast majority of the weak nations from 10/15 years ago have all improved to a certain extent apart from Lietch and San Marino. While as everyone knows we've gone backwards. Hopefully a new manager can improve things but ive never been as down on ireland as i am now. weve nothing coming through in midfield. a new manager should be better at in game decision making + changes than kenny, who was awful at it, but if we dont have better options than cullen and molumby then we'll continue to struggle .

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I don't think anyone really thinks they're a San Marino or a Liechtenstein though. Underage results are a strange one in terms of how it factors into the senior side, in part because there's still so many players who just won't make it, certainly at international level, and you can also have the flip side of one really good year.

We've beaten them three times out of the last four at 21s level, while at 17s and 19s they're still behind us.

I still think if we're losing to them, we have to ask ourselves hard questions as to why.

Edit - actually, one neat way to see how the likes of Luxembourg have improved over the years is the Eloratings site. We played them in Euro 88 qualifying when we were rated 1764 (and about to take off of course) while they were 1156. Translates to about a 5% chance of a Luxembourg win in any given game. Fast forward to 2021, and we had dropped to 1650, while they were up to 1396 (about a 20% chance of a win). They're 1520 now, so they're continuing to improve, while we're still falling (1614).

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

They missed a hilariously bad open goal from right under the bar early on saturday I think.

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Yeah 2 times in the same attack movement. :-)

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Their U21s got one point in their last qualifying campaign (against us...) and three points in the campaign before that. Have they really been doing anything special at underage level?.

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I remember last year, maybe summer, I checked this out. Details are a little hazy but it’s somewhere on foot if anyone wants to waste time time finding it.

We had about 9 (or 10) 21s eligible lads either in the squad or missing through injury (where they were already squad regulars). No one in Europe had more than 4 players (or 3) - with the exception of Luxembourg who had 7 or something. So understandable that their 21s would have really suffered.

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Originally Posted by Jd2793

yeah i dont think you are wrong with most of your points tbf. i am a bit skeptical with smallbone though. doesnt seem like he has the physical attributes for where we'd like to go? again could be down to space he is being asked to cover and infairness we always seem open. if only you could combine molumbys energy with cullens football. still think we need some sort of a no8/6 to come through soon if we are to push on.

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Agree about Smallbone. I think he looks very casual as a player. Doesn’t convince me at all. He looked good in one of the friendlies for a spell, linking up with Doherty (Might have been Latvia ?) but apart from that really hasn’t done anything that would have you saying he’s a future star.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Interesting comment from SK post game: "The Republic of Ireland have never won an away game against a tier one team in history..."

"Surely not?" I thought. But looking back on it, if you discount a couple of wins away to England in the British Championship, NI have only managed it twice (I think) in competitive games, vs Spain and West Germany, with the last of those in 1983!

I suppose SK got it right when he added: "and it's because it's very hard."

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He may well have meant competitive away fixtures, but we did beat the Dutch and Germans away in the build-up to USA '94

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Originally Posted by elatedscum

Let’s not be stupid about this. Wales and Austria aren’t Tier 1 teams. France we didn’t beat.

Tier 1 teams are:

Germany
France
Spain
Italy
England
Netherlands
Portugal
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Belgium
Croatia

First 7 are sure things. Belgium and Croatia aren’t always but are in the last decade

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We may not have beaten any of these teams away in competitive fixtures, but since the start of the Charlton era we have drawn away in competitive fixtures against all of them except Croatia - and that's the difference - it's always been very, very hard to beat tier one teams away from home, but right now it seems very, very hard for us to even draw with them.

We've also beaten Germany, Holland, Spain and Croatia at home in that time.

Win your home games and draw your away ones and you'll go far. Instead, Kenny's best has been to draw the home ones and lose the away ones

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

We've also beaten Germany, Holland, Spain and Croatia at home in that time.

Win your home games and draw your away ones and you'll go far. Instead, Kenny's best has been to draw the home ones and lose the away ones

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or in the case of this campaign, lose both.