Republic of Ireland V Finland - Sunday, September 6th - 2020 - UEFA Nations League

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

But Nesta there hasn't been a radical change in style that's the point. There's been worrying signs like being carved open straight down the middle and our CBs getting caught out but there's been nothing positive on the other side. We were slowing everything down. Corners , free kicks throw ins. Not sure what you were watching but I didn't see anything of what you're talking about

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There's noticeably much less hoofball than we have seen for the entirety of the previous three manager's reign. This is welcome. On the downside we don't seem to be able to pass accurately without slowing the pace of the game down which obviously will have a detrimental impact on our ability to create chances through the middle.

I just think we still have the same underlying issues that have plagued us since McCarthy's first tenure. A very, very average pool of players.

Until the youngsters are ready to raise the bar above that level we will struggle no matter who the manager is.

we need a system that suits the players. if doherty and stevens they excel as wingbacks, then make it work....working out a back 3 with wingbacks is not hard, because you end up defending with 5.

then work out the midfield, a 3 central mids line. 1 defensive holding mid like Busquets, and two "internos or interior midfielders on the sides box to box", then two attackers on the flanks and a number 9.

I really want Kenny to succeed and he has to be given time. I wonder how the slow motion pace would have been accepted by a vocal crowd or if the fans would have made the players pick up the pace. I cant see anyway we will get past Slovakia

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Originally Posted by Bielsa´s irish

we need a system that suits the players. if doherty and stevens they excel as wingbacks, then make it work....working out a back 3 with wingbacks is not hard, because you end up defending with 5.

then work out the midfield, a 3 central mids line. 1 defensive holding mid like Busquets, and two "internos or interior midfielders on the sides box to box", then two attackers on the flanks and a number 9.

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When you do not have a quality midfield perhaps playing and attacking with wingbacks is the way to go !

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Originally Posted by seanfhear

When you do not have a quality midfield perhaps playing and attacking with wingbacks is the way to go !

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yeap! Furhermore we havent got time, two or 3 days and matchday. Is lunacy. We are Ireland we cant afford losing at home vs Finland, iceland, switzerland etc. Weve got to draw a line in the sand. Finland played 5 at the back!!

We are certainly lacking quality midfielders and have Three Wing Backs that can attack in that manner Doherty / Stevens and of Course Coleman.

Long on the bench. Really ? 0-1. McClean for a striker? It was McClean for Stevens. No Plan B. Really? Cillian Sheridan is better than Duffy as number 9. That Connor Ronan and Cullen maybe that Jack Byrne, Ryan Manning is a fellow i want as a left midfielder as well. The guy is on fire!

Stevens from what i saw i was convinced. Cover you have the german guy Derrick and Cunningham. Hoban is getting back, we have the players

Hoban?!

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Hoban?!

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Tommie is getting back got injured 3 times at Watford now at Aberdeen

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

But Nesta there hasn't been a radical change in style that's the point. There's been worrying signs like being carved open straight down the middle and our CBs getting caught out but there's been nothing positive on the other side. We were slowing everything down. Corners , free kicks throw ins. Not sure what you were watching but I didn't see anything of what you're talking about

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Oh I do think its a radical change in style, but yeah there are old weaknesses that have cropped up. I do think that Irish sides over the years have had an inferiority complex, especially against 'technical' sides. It's why we got that grit and spit, fight to the last - and got us results at times. But looking back to say that WC 94 side, it was a side that had it all - solid at centre half + the McGrath class, good wide players and set piece delivery possible, top ability strikers, raiding full backs, box to box midfielder, ball players and spoilers, and the ability in the squad to change things up if needed. 2002 was as close as we have gotten to a side that really believed in their own technical ability and had similarities to the 94 side. Since then we have had nothing but 'irish players can only play one way'. I'm sure it would be easy for SK to pick up lads that would declare for us and do a job and get us to a couple of finals every decade. This is embracing the 'not exclusively British' and that we can play with more technique ala our European opposition. There is no reason why Croatia couldnt have been our template in terms of resources and population. I thought Brian Kerr would have brought a new attitude but he was slow to change a team, didnt pick form players especially if young and fatally when we went ahead after dominating a game suddenly went to 5-4-1/4-5-1 etc in fear. Mick did the same occasionally. Kenny wont do this to a flaw! It is currently building formation and phases of play. We saw glimpses and they will become more apparent. The players may have been slowing things down but not as per the managers direction, just adapting to new stuff. Watching runners off the ball, there were times it was from training albeit the ball wasnt delivered. The slow ball possession across the defence and keeper was a building block. Randolph chipping a quick short ball in to touch showed the thinking if not execution, we got caught playing super deep but again trying to play it out without a hoof. I think all this will come together, maybe not in a spectacular way in November but with some time. I will call it now that I believe that we will beat Slovenia and that the entire performance will show more cohesion. Id be more worried about beating NI if it comes to pass. Though IB doesnt have the O'Neill touch.

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Originally Posted by shakermaker1982

I don’t know enough about Kenny’s character but is he the kind of guy that will double down on the 433 or will he tweak straight away?

There is going to be a knee jerk reaction from the press/fans, that’s just the way the world works now (unfortunately) but I was just curious if people think he’ll make changes because the big game is only next month. I don’t think 433 suits the players that were in that squad panel. Maybe McGoldrick starting gives the formation a better chance of working because he does drop deep.

It’s crazy to think he’s under pressure already but I’ve already seen posts on Facebook/twitter saying he’s a fraud because he has never managed in the PL blah blah and Big Mick would have qualified with his eyes closed. The usual nonsense spouted after a bad result.

I know we all get excited when a young Irish player plays well at a good level but it does show that international football is a different level altogether. Its a huge step up and it’s going to take them 10 caps before they find their feet.

If we do continue to play this way then the tempo has to be increased considerably for it to have any chance to work. I know it’s still pre-season and not expecting them to go 100mph all the time but you cannot play 1st gear for large portions of the game.

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Yer spot on! But purely from watching SK in LoI he does not waiver away from his ummm philosophy. He will rarely if ever decide to go 442 or say go long ball. His teams play the same fron minute 1 to 90+ and often to good effect. Late goals are a feature of his sides, this seemed to be that playing a possession game and forcing opposition to press, eventually they broke rank in frustration or tired. This would be an area maybe that at international level discipline and fitness is top notch. But we have been on the recieving end (France Euro 16) where we were out of puff by 60 mins.

Obviously still very early days and clearly preseason, so no need to push the panic button. Plenty of young players emerging, let’s see what happens in the coming months. Long term project

I think Kenny said himself there was an element of experimentation about the see selection for the two games. It was an opportunity to give young players game time who might be breakout starts in the next few weeks and now will have international experience if he chooses to play them in the playoff game.

I think it was clear he'll have to chose players who are starting for their clubs if his system is going to work. It needs players to be fit and sharp to work properly. He's learned the limitations of Doherty in a back four, he's seen that Idah probably needs more time, but is an option if he burns it up in the next few weeks.

He's had time to work with the core squad and some fringe players and they'll be better prepared for what to expect in the next camp. It's not going to happen overnight, but I can't understand the levels of negativity all over the place. It's not like we were hammering teams in every international brake before? We were scraping draws and the odd win and we were embarrassed quite a few times. It's not like things could get that much worse.

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Originally Posted by Bielsa´s irish

Tommie is getting back got injured 3 times at Watford now at Aberdeen

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Ah, ok. I was thinking Pat Hoban, which is why I was a bit surprised.

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Originally Posted by RiffRaff

I really want Kenny to succeed and he has to be given time. I wonder how the slow motion pace would have been accepted by a vocal crowd or if the fans would have made the players pick up the pace. I cant see anyway we will get past Slovakia

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Slovakia are a poor team. Bosnia are no great shakes. I think the North could do a number on them and they could beat either us or Slovakia at their place.

Bosnia have the best player, Slovakia have a few good individuals as we do and the North are the most organised of the four. There is nothing between the sides. I have no doubt at least one of the three games will be decided by penos.

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

Oh I do think its a radical change in style, but yeah there are old weaknesses that have cropped up. I do think that Irish sides over the years have had an inferiority complex, especially against 'technical' sides. It's why we got that grit and spit, fight to the last - and got us results at times. But looking back to say that WC 94 side, it was a side that had it all - solid at centre half + the McGrath class, good wide players and set piece delivery possible, top ability strikers, raiding full backs, box to box midfielder, ball players and spoilers, and the ability in the squad to change things up if needed. 2002 was as close as we have gotten to a side that really believed in their own technical ability and had similarities to the 94 side. Since then we have had nothing but 'irish players can only play one way'. I'm sure it would be easy for SK to pick up lads that would declare for us and do a job and get us to a couple of finals every decade. This is embracing the 'not exclusively British' and that we can play with more technique ala our European opposition. There is no reason why Croatia couldnt have been our template in terms of resources and population. I thought Brian Kerr would have brought a new attitude but he was slow to change a team, didnt pick form players especially if young and fatally when we went ahead after dominating a game suddenly went to 5-4-1/4-5-1 etc in fear. Mick did the same occasionally. Kenny wont do this to a flaw! It is currently building formation and phases of play. We saw glimpses and they will become more apparent. The players may have been slowing things down but not as per the managers direction, just adapting to new stuff. Watching runners off the ball, there were times it was from training albeit the ball wasnt delivered. The slow ball possession across the defence and keeper was a building block. Randolph chipping a quick short ball in to touch showed the thinking if not execution, we got caught playing super deep but again trying to play it out without a hoof. I think all this will come together, maybe not in a spectacular way in November but with some time. I will call it now that I believe that we will beat Slovenia and that the entire performance will show more cohesion. Id be more worried about beating NI if it comes to pass. Though IB doesnt have the O'Neill touch.



Yer spot on! But purely from watching SK in LoI he does not waiver away from his ummm philosophy. He will rarely if ever decide to go 442 or say go long ball. His teams play the same fron minute 1 to 90+ and often to good effect. Late goals are a feature of his sides, this seemed to be that playing a possession game and forcing opposition to press, eventually they broke rank in frustration or tired. This would be an area maybe that at international level discipline and fitness is top notch. But we have been on the recieving end (France Euro 16) where we were out of puff by 60 mins.

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ok i love the intentions but we must get results, this is a result sport. It is ok to try new things, bring new guys etc. We cant bring a lot of kids at the same time if we need results. Or lets get us eliminated by Slovakia and then lets bring the next generation as Mick did in 96-2000. Regarding USA 94, jack charlton could have taken Jeff Kenna and Kenny Cunningham to that event. The problem with Charlton Trap etc was they took time from the youngsters

I disagree. Style of football is important to me, I was embarrassed at times with the style of our football over the past several years even though we got some results. I’m willing to endure a couple of years of hardship and at least try to transition to playing decent football....in the hope then results will follow

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Ah, ok. I was thinking Pat Hoban, which is why I was a bit surprised.

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Tommy Howe ban, Pat Who ban.

Few enough cheerleaders and a lot of doom and gloom merchants out these days. Did anybody really expect Kenny to have a magic wand that could turn us into Brazil overnight? It’s not that we have too many ordinary players – anybody pulling down a salary from a premiership club is better than ordinary - but that for far too long they’ve had their confidence ground into the dirt, forced to play puke football by a succession of managers who moaned about the quality available to them to hide their own shortcomings – cautious Kerr, inexperienced Stan, stuck in 1980’s catenaccio Trappatoni, guts over guile O’Neill.

I genuinely believe that we’re going through a cultural reset. Kenny is the first manager I can recall talking about building something resembling a philosophy of play, of breaking from the English game and creating an Irish brand of play. He’s started with a (fairly new to us) passing game with (in our DNA) put 'em under pressure pressing. Results are mixed. He’s had less than a week with players. We’re not going to see Duffy turn into Beckenbauer, but we might have a competent team of ball players in two years and in five years have a team where technique and composure are second nature.

He can’t ditch players overnight. We don’t have the depth. We do have too many players who are coasting because they weren’t challenged by previous managers, either with new blood or to become better players. Hendrick, definitely, McClean. And those like Brady and McCarthy who have lost a lot to injuries – maybe there are psychological niggles that accompany long-term injuries that armchair observers like us don’t realise? Squads are thin because we capped ageing journeymen rather than develop youth. Bringing in Idah, Connolly, Molumby, and more to follow, is the transition we need, provided they develop at club level. Not all will, but enough can. Playing a system consistently and purposively, so that every player who steps on the field knows their role is also part of resetting the culture.

And to any muppets (none here, but they’ve been mentioned elsewhere) that Kenny hasn’t played at a high enough level – just ask them how many topflight games did Mourinho play? Arsène Wenger played eleven games for Strasbourg.

There’s a process of change management that goes from unfreeze, through change to refreeze: right now we’re trying to thaw out the glacier accumulated over twenty years. Like it or lump it, it’s going to take a season to make change happen.

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Originally Posted by Bielsa´s irish

ok i love the intentions but we must get results, this is a result sport. It is ok to try new things, bring new guys etc. We cant bring a lot of kids at the same time if we need results. Or lets get us eliminated by Slovakia and then lets bring the next generation as Mick did in 96-2000. Regarding USA 94, jack charlton could have taken Jeff Kenna and Kenny Cunningham to that event. The problem with Charlton Trap etc was they took time from the youngsters

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Kenna didn't make his international debut until a year after USA 94 and Cunningham didn't get his first cap until 1996, and had only played at Division 1 level until the World Cup. Neither were in contention for USA '94.

Thought today was disappointing. I think we are missing a creative midfielder to add a bit of cleverness when we get near the box. The positive is that we had the larger percentage of possession again. We've hardly done that in years in one game never mind 2 in a row. We need to get better at using the possession though. Chances also change games. We had some great opportunities in 2nd half and we should have scored. They did too of course but in a tight game that will happen.

I think the squad will look very different this time next year. There are too many players we need to move on from. Does James McClean know he's supposed to pass to his own team and not the opposition? I wouldn't be surprised if he tries to replace Duffy for a more ball playing center half. If Masterson has a good season he could become an option there.

Hopefully Cullen can kick on this season, I was surprised he wasn't in squad but maybe Kenny was giving a chance to the more established midfielders and didn't want to wield the axe too hard yet. But none stood up like you would hope and I like the energy that Cullen brings and he's good on the ball. Big season for Molumby too, he's raw but has something.

I think above anything else we need to pray that Parrott is the real deal and is brilliant at Millwall. We desperately need a goal scorer whether we are creating loads or feeding off scraps. Connollys decision making is poor and Idah is going to be well behind Pukki in Norwich set up unless Pukki is sold. A good striker is vital to us.