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Thats it really, I doubt anyone expects the fine to be overturned but hopefully reduced. If reduced for the flag element it may not make a significant difference to the amount of the fine as the fine has 3 elements to it(i think).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Parker
This is getting embarrassing.
"Republican Network for Unity have organised a picket to show their solidarity with Dundalk F.C and to display disgust for UEFA.
Assemble at Derryhale hotel, opposite the entrance to the Football ground. Friday 29th August. 7PM. All welcome."
http://www.republicanunity.org/rnu-d...-on-uefa-fine/
These political parasites are NOT welcome any where near Oriel Park.
Bloody hell. It'll be the Judean People's Front turning up next.
Well Bohs will be in town, which means the Guards will have their dogs, horses, and the armed response unit at Oriel Park.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
To be honest, if the case ever was to go to CAS, the panel might even see it as an "aggravating circumstance" that the stewards were alerted to the flags' display (along with their alleged-inappropriate nature by the UEFA delegate) and, even though they clearly knew where the flags were situated and had easy access to them, as demonstrated by their initial request to the flag-wavers, they failed to confiscate them and prevent their further display. That the flags would be waved again because they were left in the hands of the known perpetrators was very much foreseeable and avoidable. UEFA might well view matters similarly if Dundalk were to lodge an appeal with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by jinxy lilywhite
UEFA are savvy and familiar with the process of how CAS operates; their disciplinary and legal affairs divisions won't often make careless mistakes and silly errors of judgment. If you were going to take them on in the court, you'd need to be pretty sure of your case. Besides, you'd have to appeal to UEFA first and they'd have to reject that appeal (on dubious grounds). The whole process would also be pretty expensive. Possibly even more costly than the fine itself?
How do you objectively quantify or measure these "links" though? If you can acknowledge that the rule is as fluffy and nebulous as your posts on the matter seemingly imply, so as to be bordering on inherently-conflicting and ultimately-meaningless, why shouldn't or can't Dundalk argue that the SSE have humanitarian "links" to Palestine? They may have supporters who identify with cultural Judaism, but do Ajax and Spurs have official links (or even informal links, for that matter) with the state of Israel? Even if all Ajax and all Spurs fans were indeed Jewish anyway (and they're not), Judaism and Zionism are not one and the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
Jesus, the cries of oppression... Actually, it does vanish. With rights come responsibilities. On the other side of that turnstile is what's known as private property. Freedom of speech can be restricted when it conflicts with the rights and reputations of others. If you're to remain welcome on someone else's private property, there is, at the very least, an implicit agreement that you play by their rules; you don't have any absolute right to express yourself contrary to their interests and wishes. If they want you to pipe down, they have no obligation to listen to you and can legally restrict you or throw you out. Being shunned as an unwelcome trespasser isn't a denial of freedom to express oneself. There's plenty of public space upon which expressions can be freely made. Freedom of expression is something that the state bestows upon its citizens in order to protect them from a potentially overbearing or all-powerful government.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
I see Dundalk's statement mentioned the club's "ground regulations and code of conduct". I'm not quite sure how, and I'd imagine, if it was possible, clubs all around Europe would already have thought of it, but could there be some way a club could argue that the supporters concerned, rather than the club itself, should be held liable for misconduct or breach of ground regulations that have caused material loss for the club?
Unsubstantiated?...Quote:
Originally Posted by SSA
I don't have much time for the bluster and show-boating of a bunch of vain intransigents who've cost their club a significant deal of money through their stubborn irresponsibility, but, at the same time, if UEFA had their way, football would be a very sterile place. I have no issue with political expressions at football matches per se - I don't think football and politics can be separated; we're political beings by nature - and I've already given my opinion on the regulation in question - it's daft and arbitrary - but it exists and that's the reality whether we like it or not, so if a group of supporters are going to engage in outlawed activity at significant cost to their club, they should at least do the decent thing; take responsibility and cover the fine.
I hope you realise that, whether you mean for it to be perceived as such or not, what you express above is an inherently political view. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
It is undeniably a contentious point of view that relates to how you believe other humans should act or behave in a particular situation and would arouse great disagreement with those who wish to see and use their community's club as a vehicle for wider communal expression, as is so common around Europe. Football clubs have traditionally been channels through which their supporters have expressed their communal identities; be they ethnic, national, cultural, religious, political or whatever. I don't think it's possible to remove these elements from football because the supporters and their intrinsic identities are an integral part of the game. To pretend that politics and football are separate and mutually exclusive entities is to impossibly try and deny the human nature of the game's adherents.
For what it's worth, if there was a choice in the matter, I wouldn't like to see these elements removed from the world of football anyway. I loathe football grounds that have more in common with a clinic. The game would be soulless and terribly bland without the emotion and humanity its supporters bring to it with their various baggage.
So you keep saying and I doubt anyone here would actually disagree with that; their plight is a tragedy of unspeakable proportions. It's a moral outrage what the Israeli state is doing and has been doing this past half-century. In an ideal world, we'd all be able to say what we liked, wherever we liked. Or, even better, there would be no Israeli occupation and bombardment of Palestine for us to get disgusted with. But that doesn't really deal with the (admittedly much more trivial) issue at hand; what is your solution to this present predicament in which Dundalk find themselves exactly? It's an insignificant one in the grand and worldly scheme of things, but it's still a rather sh*tty problem that Dundalk have to deal with. This is Dundalk's reality and it doesn't pale into non-existence simply because it's not as important an issue as Gaza. Is it right that Dundalk have been involuntarily dragged into this humanitarian matter through a combination of stupid UEFA regulations and irresponsible flag-wavers? UEFA might have a fairly rotten and unsavoury core, but it still doesn't change the fact that Dundalk are down quite a lot of money due to the irresponsible posturing of some of their supporters. Will those supporters cough up the fine?...Quote:
Originally Posted by wonder88
There could be trouble; the Palestinian People's Front and the People's Front of Palestine are already down to attend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
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Originally Posted by White Horse
Funny that. I believe that some of SSA's leaders are affiliated strongly to groups that are affiliated to RNU.
What about Justice for the 96 banners and flags - is that not a political campaign?Quote:
Originally Posted by White Horse
I got this from an Ajax website:Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Alot of Ajax fans and Jews don't like the link and wish Ajax would drop it. Also in England, the Jewish community, Peter Herbert and Kick It Out have asked Spurs fans to stop the Y-d chants as it's offence.Quote:
For Ajax, the image of being a Jewish club comes from the fact that Amsterdam was called the "Jerusalem of the West" before World War II. Some 80,000 Jews are said to have lived in the city at that time, and many were Ajax fans. The De Meer Stadium, where the team played home games until the 1990s, was in eastern Amsterdam, where most of the city's Jews lived at the time.
"When Ajax played teams from more provincial regions, the guest fans would take streetcars to the stadium from the main train station and go through the Jewish quarter. That's how many people saw Jews for the first time in their lives," says Hans Knoop, a Jewish journalist and spokesperson for a foundation that addresses anti-Semitism in Dutch football.
After World War II, Ajax also had some prominent Jewish leaders, among them Jaap van Prag and his son Michael, who both served as club president, along with Uri Coronel, who also served in that position. Among the players on the club's celebrated teams in the 1960s and early 1970s were Jews Bennie Muller and Sjaak Swaart, not to mention Salo Muller, a physiotherapist loved by players and fans alike.
During and after the 1970s, Ajax was repeatedly subjected to anti-Semitic hostility in the Dutch national league. To fight back, the hooligan group "F Side" demonstratively took on a Jewish image in 1976. The group is still active today, though its members aren't particularly interested in solidarity with Israel or Judaism, says journalist Knoop. "Some 90 percent of Ajax fans don't even know where Israel is," he tells SPIEGEL ONLINE. "When they yell 'Jews, Jews!' or 'Super Jews,' it's about firing up the team and nothing else."
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Originally Posted by Macy
It's has a lot to do with football. LFC are looking for justice for their fans. So there's the link. Robbie Fowler was fined for wearing a t-shirt showing support for the dockers. It was a stupid fine but them the rules UEFA go by.
Yes, but their rules are moronic and should be challenged at every opportunity.
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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Like the one when a team got kicked out of Europe for fielding a player who was ineligible two minutes from time in a tie that was already over. And then there was the FC Sion affair.
And your point is...
One of the "co chairman" :rolleyes:/ whatever you want to call him has recently got out of prison and is associated big time with that other shower.Quote:
Originally Posted by GCdfc
Sadlier on RTE last night about it if it's not been posted yet, absolutely bang on with what he said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sGQ8iCGksw
Also just to say as well that the SSA was originally set up by a couple of young fellas who are for want of a better term "proper" supporters. Instead of hanging around street corners or acting the maggot etc; they put their time, effort and money into making flags, tifos, displays and helping out around the club.
They're a credit to the club, themselves, their parents etc and it's an absolute shame that all their good work has been sullied and co-opted by a couple of middle aged auld fellas with axes to grind and delusions of grandeur who want to cause ructions and be the pied piper to the rest who are only there for the cans and the wannabe green street experience, not to mention bullying anyone and everyone who doesn't do what they say.
IMO, Legia shouldn't have been kicked out of the Champions League as the player had no impact on the game. It wasn't cheating, it was an administive mistake. But UEFA rules say if an ineligible plays for his team the game is void. Legia have plenty of grounds to appeal (like Dundalk have) but the rules are there in black and white.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Seems to me that Dundalk FC have had issues with their support now for a while yet they dont look like they are willing to resolve it in anyway. Just blaming supporters for everything wont solve anything, and leads to mad situations like this.
This is a very important point and I would hate for these young lads to think that they are looked down upon by the rest of the fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by colonelwest
The problem, and it is a substantial ome, rests with one or two older individuals.
Dundalk FC have had great support, home and away. There is an issue with one or two individuals and their attempt to steer impressionable young lads into areas that cause problems for the club.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
Definitely seems like an ego thing from a couple of fans alright.Quote:
Originally Posted by White Horse
1) Told numerous times to take the flag down. Did it anyway
2) Sought "legal advice" and contacted UEFA directly
No one with an ounce of self-awareness would do either of these
They appealed even to the CAS, who have a lot more credibility than UEFA currently. And it was rejected. It's hardly as if it's not happened before.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat