Jack Charlton

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Originally Posted by geysir

Paisley is not just one of the greatest coaches/ managers in British history, but would fit into many a top 10 of world coaches/managers list.

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I wouldn't disagree with that, I just kept it simple by naming the other British contenders* as he's very much amongst them. Three European Cups is enough to cement his name on any list really, domestically and internationally. I don't think that's overlooked though, I suppose that was my point.

*Edit- I forgot Jock Stein.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

He won more alright but I think the scale of their particular jobs were almost incomparable. Liverpool were slumming it out in Division 2 for a few years when Shankly took over. If somebody built my house from the ground up I wouldn't turn around and give more credit to the guy that painted it. :)



I think this might be one of those situations where it's noted so often that somebody is underrated that he's not actually underrated at all, a bit like Denis Irwin (or Donnchadh Walsh for GAA fans). Paisley is mentioned in most conversations I hear to be honest - himself, Clough, Busby, Shankly and Ferguson (in no particular order) are probably the five really outstanding British managers? Is anybody else deserving of a serious mention? Only Ancelotti has won as many European Cups as Paisley so he's always going to be in the conversation I think.

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Depends on how you measure it really. Think you have to at least consider Joe Fagan (Treble winner), Kenny Dalglish (League titles with two different clubs), Bill Nicholson (longevity and vast array of trophies) and Don Revie (a legacy tarnish by managing England badly).

That is just 50's onwards as well.

I think the gap between the six I named and those would be significant enough from what I know. I don't think any of those could make a genuine case for being the outright greatest, whereas the six I mentioned probably could. Ferguson's achievements at Manchester United would probably outweigh Fagan and Nicholson's put together, seeing as you mentioned trebles and longevity, and that's without even considering his borderline miracles at Aberdeen. All a matter of opinion of course and I wouldn't be particularly well versed on some of their achievements anyway.

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Originally Posted by snowball

Depends on how you measure it really.

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Interesting you say that as I came across this.

This is the list they came up with, Robbie Brady even gets a mention in the introduction.

The 50 greatest managers of all time.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

I think the gap between the six I named and those would be significant enough from what I know. I don't think any of those could make a genuine case for being the outright greatest, whereas the six I mentioned probably could. Ferguson's achievements at Manchester United would probably outweigh Fagan and Nicholson's put together, seeing as you mentioned trebles and longevity, and that's without even considering his borderline miracles at Aberdeen. All a matter of opinion of course and I wouldn't be particularly well versed on some of their achievements anyway.



Interesting you say that as I came across this.

This is the list they came up with, Robbie Brady even gets a mention in the introduction.

The 50 greatest managers of all time.

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In my own opinion it is between Paisley and Ferguson for top spot. I threw the rest out there as they would make up the rest of a top ten.

Interesting list. I don't agree with how it is weighted but it comes pretty close to matching my own opinions on the British managers at least.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

I think the gap between the six I named and those would be significant enough from what I know. I don't think any of those could make a genuine case for being the outright greatest, whereas the six I mentioned probably could. Ferguson's achievements at Manchester United would probably outweigh Fagan and Nicholson's put together, seeing as you mentioned trebles and longevity, and that's without even considering his borderline miracles at Aberdeen. All a matter of opinion of course and I wouldn't be particularly well versed on some of their achievements anyway.



Interesting you say that as I came across this.

This is the list they came up with, Robbie Brady even gets a mention in the introduction.

The 50 greatest managers of all time.

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Ferguson No. 1 ?? It's all relative really. He was after all the manager of the biggest club side in the world. Personally I would go for Jim McLaughlin followed by Jack Charlton but perhaps there is a hint of bias there.

If you gave me a choice of manager between Revie, Shankly, Clough, Ferguson or Paisley, I'd go Shankly, Clough, Revie, Ferguson and Paisley in that order.

So because Ferguson managed the biggest club in the world (debatable), it more or less rules him out of the running regardless of how well he did there? They had gone over twenty years without a League title when he took over, a period that also included a relegation. Their biggest club in the world status obviously wasn't much use to them during those decades.

With the exception of Dundee United in 1983, his Aberdeen side are still the only team to have won the Championship in Scotland outside of the Old Firm in the last fifty years, and they proved it wasn't a fluke by doing it three times, adding four Scottish Cups, a League Cup and even European success (beating the actual biggest club in the world in the final). Altogether, ten trophies in eight years with Aberdeen! And that was after he dragged St. Mirren through two divisions of Scottish football. Even if he retired after Aberdeen he'd deserve to be mentioned amongst the greats, never mind throwing 28 major trophies at United into the mix.

I'd love to know what measure you're using to arrive at the conclusion that Don Revie deserves greater recognition, other than personal preference (bias/prejudice)? I know he brought Leeds from the second tier to eventual champions. I suppose your top three have all done that, Clough even managed it with two clubs, so maybe that weighs very heavily for you. I'm surprised you didn't throw Big Ron into the mix. :)

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/...85_468x404.jpg

Johnny Giles talks Charlton on Off The Ball last night.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

Johnny Giles talks Charlton on Off The Ball last night.

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Certainly won't be listening to the jealously which will be on offer there.

I suppose I rate Don Revie because he was the top manager during my adolescent days and he brought Leeds from obscurity to be one of the top teams in Europe as did Brian Clough (albeit not at Leeds). Ferguson eventually arrived on the scene (after 6 years ?) with a couple of last minute goals at Old Trafford against Sheffield Wednesday to set up the title win with Eric Cantona and the appearance of Scoles, Giggs, Beckham etc from the youth side. I think he was lucky with their arrival and then with the massive wealth generated by the Champions League, Man U maintained its dominance. That said, his performance at Aberdeen was phenomenal and to continue to win the Premiership (with two CL's) is deserving of great praise. Still his side lost a league cup final in 1991 to Sheffield Wednesday (first trophy in almost 60 years) so he must be brutal!

And Big Ron repeated the trick with Villa three years later, depriving Fergie of a (unique?) domestic treble.

Giles comes across pretty well I think.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

Johnny Giles talks Charlton on Off The Ball last night.

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I listened to it last night and the FAI hit squad went about their business in a bizarre manner, interviewing suspects, making promises willy nilly and ended up nominating a hatful of names to be voted upon by the FAI committee and the whole circus was to be held almost in the full glare of the media.
When you think about it, only the FAI could set up a set of incredible circumstances so that they missed hitting the barn door with a banjo and failed to get a world class Paisley nominated.
Giles made the point that if they had just come back and nominated Charlton, there would hardly have been any rumpus made. It would have regarded as a good appointment.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Ferguson No. 1 ?? It's all relative really. He was after all the manager of the biggest club side in the world.

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That's harsh. He made them one of the biggest club sides in the world (though even in their doldrum periods, they obviously had huge domestic support)

And the Aberdeen achievements were exceptional.

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Originally Posted by geysir

I listened to it last night and the FAI hit squad went about their business in a bizarre manner, interviewing suspects, making promises willy nilly and ended up nominating a hatful of names to be voted upon by the FAI committee and the whole circus was to be held almost in the full glare of the media.
When you think about it, only the FAI could set up a set of incredible circumstances so that they missed hitting the barn door with a banjo and failed to get a world class Paisley nominated.
Giles made the point that if they had just come back and nominated Charlton, there would hardly have been any rumpus made. It would have regarded as a good appointment.

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Well, they didn't miss hitting the barn door. They came away with in Jack. As I said earlier, I think Jack personality wise was totally suited to the Irish job and he had also had a few other coaching jobs prior to that. Paisley was born and bred Liverpool and while he may technically have been a better coach, I am sure not sure he would have been suited to the totally different environment that was Ireland at the time. I just don't see his character fitting in to the job but it's all speculation.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

That's harsh. He made them one of the biggest club sides in the world (though even in their doldrum periods, they obviously had huge domestic support)

And the Aberdeen achievements were exceptional.

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Agree about Aberdeen.

Man U were huge even with all those seasons in the "wilderness" (including a relegation to the old Division One - can't remember who the unfortunate manager was at the time). You'll find as many Man U supporters my age brought up on Law, Best, Charlton etc as you will the new generation brought up on Giggs, Cantona, Keane etc. I was just reading in the paper today that they're ready to splash out again this summer.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Man U were huge even with all those seasons in the "wilderness"

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Well ok - I probably phrased that badly.

But Ferguson took over a mundane team; Wiki says they "recovered" to finish 11th in his first season*. It took a little bit of time, but he built it up to be the dominant club of the 90s/00s. At the time, if you'd known what was to come in football in general (money washing around; success breeding success), you'd have expected Liverpool to be the dominant club. So even the job at United was a great achievement - and of course, you can see how quickly it's dropped away since he left.


* - as an aside, I see Utd lost 2-0 to Shamrock Rovers in an away friendly at the start of the season - anyone got any more details?

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Certainly won't be listening to the jealously which will be on offer there.

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Didn't hear any jealousy from Gilesy in the interview.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Well, they didn't miss hitting the barn door. They came away with in Jack. As I said earlier, I think Jack personality wise was totally suited to the Irish job and he had also had a few other coaching jobs prior to that. Paisley was born and bred Liverpool and while he may technically have been a better coach, I am sure not sure he would have been suited to the totally different environment that was Ireland at the time. I just don't see his character fitting in to the job but it's all speculation.

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You might remember that it was thee most frustrating of times in Irish intl football, as we had quality players available, probably the best quality selection of all time and a totally inept manager at the helm (sorry Eoin). The question isn't about what happened after the appointment of Jack, it's about the reaction at the time of the appointment and the reaction to how the FAI conspired to appoint Charlton ahead of a world class coach/manager.
Maybe it might have turned out that an acclaimed world class manager /coach Bob Paisley a man who had more football nous and experience in his little finger than a team of Jack Charltons, would not have worked out how to manage a team with Beglin, Brady, Stapleton, Lawrenson, Whelan, McGrath, O'Leary, Sheedy and Moran, but the question was not about that, it was about the reaction at that time to the appointment of Charlton over Bob Paisley.

Colin Young (journalist and author) chats to The42.ie about Jack Charlton's place in Irish footballing (and political) history: http://www.the42.ie/jack-charlton-st...35936-Jun2017/

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Originally Posted by Paul Fennessy

Niall Quinn — not only a legendary player on these shores but also one of football’s great storytellers — best summarises Charlton’s profound impact on Irish life at a deeper level than a mere sporting milieu. “Jack Charlton started the Peace Process and he was responsible for the start of the Celtic Tiger era in Ireland,” the former Arsenal, Man City and Sunderland striker says. “And he did it just by being himself.”

Quinn continues: “If you go back to when he took the job, it was unthinkable for an English manager to come into our game in Ireland and do what he did. Why? Because English people weren’t comfortable coming to Ireland, so it was a big step for him. And Irish people were not as comfortable with English people as they are today and there was an underlying suspicion of them. We were brought up to believe that as kids. I was 14, 15 when the hunger strikes were going on and there were black flags outside houses in the street and everybody in Ireland said Margaret Thatcher was the devil. That was only five years before Jack came, and it had not cleared up by any stretch of the imagination. It was a risky move for him but one that he took absolutely full on and embraced from day one. He dealt with any political suspicions really well, and in his way. He was blunt and won the people over, not by launching a PR campaign, but by just being himself. Look at the way he asked for a light after he’d been given some shocking abuse by the crowd in Belfast [during a Northern Ireland-Republic of Ireland World Cup qualifier]. It calmed them down because he was laughing it off and dealing with it as only he could.”

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[Colin Young:] “The best thing he could do was just manage the football team to the best of his ability, not get involved or embroiled in any of the [political] stuff that is going on in the background. But by being the way he was, by being successful and by being the first Protestant manager, by being very Geordie, which is actually quite close to Irish people and Irish culture, people embraced him and it was never really an issue.”

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It seems the sad day has come -

https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2...-charlton-dies

Yes, we had a decent squad and should have qualified for something sooner. But it needed that extra bit of belief, and it ultimately was Jack that pushed us over the line.

A true legend of Irish football

Has sadly passed away at 85. RIP.

RIP Jack. You did more to make the world sit up and take notice of Irish football than anyone before or since.

Rest in Peace Jack. That man gave a generation amazing times that will live with them until the end of their days. Thanks for the memories.