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Compare and contrast at your leisure : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Eu...squads#DenmarkQuote:
Originally Posted by the bear
I think overall our squads club stature compares favourably with the Danes, and when you compare how they actually played, they came within 15 mins and one goal of progressing in a group with Germany, Holland & Portugal in it, and they type of football they played, clever and entertaining, well, there is no comparison at all, sadly.
I would say that denmark have better clubs for their first 11 than us. The remainder of their squad is not as strong as our remainder then. This doesn't necessarily even out though as only 11 men can play at a time.
1 thing that stood out there though is they have 7 homebased players in their squad. Could a few LOI players have been included in our squad? The rovers lads even had european experience which not a lot of our squad have this year. It would certainly give the league a lift if nothing else. Why not bring a few lads along to every squad even if there is no intention of playing them initially? Especially homebased matches where all the FAI would be forking out would be bus fare to Malahide.
You say stronger starting eleven, and I'd agree broadly, just. However, take their Portugal encounter, when they played their way back in from 2-0 behind, their midfield naturally being key in this and they had in the middle, an FC Midtjylland a Club Brugge a Brondby and briefly NEC Nijmegen (albeit he will be an Ajax player for the coming season, but he came on on 90 mins) players, knocking it properly around in the middle third.
Yet our Spartak Moscow, Fulham, Stoke and West Brom (three mid table or above EPL clubs) quartet cant even come get it from the full backs, or our full backs roll it into them for that matter. I struggle to accept this.
Their younger players, the less heralded home based ones are probably their best young talent, their future, and fair play they brought them along for the exposure if not game time. It will stand to them. Our long term future players are somewhere in the E.P.L. academy system, and consequently it's in the lap of the Gods as far as influence on them goes. This is where the Danes really trump us.
In any event, players we will come to depend on almost immediately, and will be seen as vital of we make the next world cup were nowhere to be seen in our squad, we had room for people like Hunt, Green and McShane though.
The big difference for us though is that most of our players not only play with teams in the lower end of the English Premier, they are not even regular starters!
I have tried to hold off commenting and tried to put this tournament in perspective. Prior to this June, through four major tournaments we'd only lost 4 matches with a goal difference of -5 in those matches (I don't count Spain in '02). To have suggested two weeks ago what just happened would occur would have seemed beyond pessimistic. I don't want to rush to a judgment, but our record and performances under Trap against teams ranked higher than us in a group leaves me with dread for the upcoming campaign. Yes, we've got 7 points from 8 matches against those teams (and perhaps should've had more away to Slovakia and at home to Italy, though for Italy that match was pretty much academic), but when you see the likes of Cyprus, Montenegro, and Armenia performing similarly well it takes the gloss off. Even Stan got results against Germany and the Czechs at home and we actually beat Slovakia under him (and like those aforementioned teams results against the "lesser" teams let him down). I don't really recall the away match in Germany -- just Podolski's deflected goal -- but I don't believe we were dominated nearly as bad as we were in Moscow or any of the past three matches. I don't know that Trap needs to go, but if not I think the team needs a complete overhaul (which I'm not sure Trap is willing to do) because, to be blunt, our performance at Euro 2012 was a disgrace.
It's one difference but it doesn't explain everything, e.g. why players from similar and lower standard clubs that play for other national teams like Norway/Sweden/Denmark can play at Euro finals and be technically proficient, comfortable and acquainted with their role in the teamQuote:
Originally Posted by DotTV
Yep, James McCarthy's strides forward as a player and the fact that he's playing under Martinez are probably related. Imagine if he had ended up playing for somebody like Neil Warnock instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
We are too dependent on the EPL and have little control over the development of our players.
If Trap was to walk away, only way with the contract he is on as the FAI won't pay up, it'd be interesting to see if Redknapp would take on the job as Dunphy suggested.
This is from Trap in the Indo.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...14-3144637.htm
He said: "There are many names. We have three, four, five - McClean, for example, James McCarthy is another, and he would allow us to change the system.
"McCarthy plays in a different position. We have also Gibson, who is already here. We have others at this moment and we follow them.
"Now we can try another system because I need to know they can play in this system."
He has mentioned McCarthy in this manner before and looks like he is suggesting building the midfield around him and probably changing to a 5 man midfield. Also, it shows how relucatant he was to change the system during the last campaign.
I think if he can introduce this system it will also allow him to have the 4-4-2 system as a fall back so we are not so one dimensional.
A lone striker such as Long or Walters, with McCarthy behind and any two of Gibson/Whelan/Andrews holding with MacLean and McGeady/Coleman on the flanks might work. We need some ball players in the middle of the park.
I think the technical proficiency comes from the football philosophy they grow up with in those countries. (maybe not Norway, but Sweden and Denmark for sure).Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Good to see the FAI using Dutch coaches now. Think we need to move away from our reliance on the British football system and look more to the continent.
Look at rugby. The IRFU brought in coaches from the southern hemisphere to develop the game and over time Irish coaches have learned from them, adapted their own style and it's brought success.
Are the FAI using Dutch coaches?
We'll all be a bunch of technically gifted egotistical ar$eholes in 10 years' time!
Has the IRFU hired kiwis at grass roots level or at professional level?
Just a note of warning that Dutch doesnt always exactly equal quality. Could be more Dick Ad than Johan Cryuff. I was in China when they splashed out on Arie Haan, was a total disaster, ignoring quite a few players on a very promising under 21 team
On Monday night the Metro had a preview of the season to come and picked a star player for each Premiership team- I was surprised as many as 4 Irish players were identified:
McClean
Pilkington
Walters
Pearce
Kjaer is an excellent centrehalf, and his partnership with Agger is the template all countries should have at centre back. Eriksen has the potential to be an excellent player on the European stage.Quote:
Originally Posted by the bear
They've been involved at every level. And yes, the Dutch influence may not be the way to go!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Having played under many Dutch coaches myself I wouldn't say they were great. We have our own good Irish coaches in Ireland, but they never get listened too.
Interesting that Denmark is mentioned. They appointed Morten Olsen (good manager, I remember him at Ajax) as manager in 2000, and he's had 12 years in charge now. He has them playing 4-3-3 at all levels and has been given free reign to rebuild their international setup from youth to senior levels.
He failed to qualify for 2006 and 2008 but they trusted him to do the job. Now they reap the rewards.
Olsen is essentially doing twice the work that Trap is being asked to do, and you can be sure he is being paid less money than Trap. But he does it because he is Danish and loves to do it.
What Irishman do we have who is patient (possibly rules out Keane), a good manager, likes good football, is devoted to the Irish cause and is willing to rebuild the youth and international football from the bottom up? I would say Kerr, but maybe he doesn't have the authority. Olsen has 100+ caps for Denmark so has the authority.
The other question is if the FAI would ever hand over so much power. The FAI are probably the biggest enemy to the development of Irish football.
Looking at our team that night in 2006 I think the key difference was who we had as fullbacks and in our midfield. Carr and Finnan could distribute and Steven Reid could pass. We've missed players like those and they would have made a huge difference for us last week. I'd have sympathy with Trap though since while I'd happily identify Ward, Whelan and O'Shea as the main problems in our team its not an easy task to come up with replacements for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by theworm2345
2 of them have plenty of question marks over their intent to represent Ireland, I should point out....Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia
I'm still gutted about the championships,. Never mind us having the joint worst record, we were in my mind, easily the worst team ever at the championships. We were outclassed and against spain, we could have been luxemburg or malta, we were so poor. More that that though, I have been really disappointed to hear players say "we're not good enough" "qualifying was an achievement" "tactics and players wouldnt make any difference against those teams" - the attitude is totally defeatist. By that logic, if by any chance we do qualify for Brazil 2014, we should just pull out to save the FAI and fans money. Players should NEVER be making those comments, even if they privately feel that. O'Shea, Dunne, Given,Keane and Duff may all retire now, but even if they dont, I think we should leave them out. I'd work on developing the defence around Wilson, Clark, Duffy, Coleman, Kelly and maybe Ward and St Ledger if they get good transfer moves, and let them develop together over the next 4-5 years. The most importan thing will be to replace the defeatist attitude.
I've heard no excuses or defeatism from Dunne whatsoever. I don't think Keane said "we're not good enough" he said "we were not good enough", i.e., we didn't play well enough.
I think Dunne is needed still in the near term.