Budget 2009

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Originally Posted by saint dog

there should be various different amounts paid out depending not just on your age but on the amount of time youve worked and be out of work for .

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There already are varying amounts depending on marital status and number of children.

Regarding the amount of time you've worked, would this not mean that a person could end up entitled to no social welfare from the state? I don't want to live in a country which treats people like that. There has to be a minimum, which has just been cut.

Regarding how long you've been out of work, I think it's dangerous to make a link between amount of time out of work and lack of desire to get a job. In some cases it is obviously true, but not all. And again, I think there has to be a minimum amount.

Just to let people know that anyone who is also on jobseekers allownce they will be just cut the 8 euro regardless of age.

The 50 per cent and 25 per cent only applies to anybody who becomes uneployed after the 31st of December.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

There already are varying amounts depending on marital status and number of children.

Regarding the amount of time you've worked, would this not mean that a person could end up entitled to no social welfare from the state? I don't want to live in a country which treats people like that. There has to be a minimum, which has just been cut.

Regarding how long you've been out of work, I think it's dangerous to make a link between amount of time out of work and lack of desire to get a job. In some cases it is obviously true, but not all. And again, I think there has to be a minimum amount.

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not no social welfare but not the full amount
there are people on it years , i personally think thats disgraceful
and so is only cutting the 50% and 25% for people applying aafter dec

Just find it strange that social welfare is the focus of your rage when there is far worse fraund and tax evasion going on. Not defending it whatsoever and social welfare fraud needs to be cut out and they should invest in a task force.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

And you have of course reported them for this? Because unless you have, you have no right to complain about it.

It's the Oirish way, bitch about he-saids and she-saids in the pub, and never lift a feckin' finger to actually do something about it.

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I understand all that but reporting to the authorities is also not the done thing where I am from.
As long as I have my own house in order and not into fraud, and also never expect too much (or anything!) from the government then I think that's enough.
I dont expect anyone to do anything, free will and all that, but I am allowed to make observations, and sure I wouldnt be an Irish man if I didn't complain.:)

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

...and sure I wouldnt be an Irish man if I didn't complain.:)

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Wasn't that in the budget? You have to bitch about 200 things next year or hand in your passport?

Neil, while I see your point, I think social welfare fraud is just being talked a lot currently because it's in the news. I don't recall people talking about it much even a few months ago, whereas tax evasion and even tax avoidance have been provoking heated discussion here at least since Haughey's tax exemption for artists in the late 80s and the big off-shore accounts stuff in the (mid? late?) 90s.

But they have at least tried to close some of the social welfare loopholes John...

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Originally Posted by John83

I think social welfare fraud is just being talked a lot currently because it's in the news. I don't recall people talking about it much even a few months ago

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Of course, RTE's timing of the programme was pure coincidence and in no way doing the Governments bidding, yet again. The effect can be seen on this thread - the focus on the few fraudsters rather than the majority who will suffer, and don't deserve to, because of the cuts.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

But they have at least tried to close some of the social welfare loopholes John...

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They've been fairly consistently chasing tax evasion for about a decade now.

Meanwhile, there was some proposal to charge €200,000 per year to Irish passport holders with a certain level of assets overseas. I think it's a pretty retarded way to chase down tax avoidance, maybe even illegal, but they do seem to be thinking about the subject.

I'm not saying it's all entirely balanced - almost inevitably, it's not, as I don't credit FF with an over-abundance of joined up thinking - but I don't think it's entirely as lopsided as some would claim.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Of course, RTE's timing of the programme was pure coincidence and in no way doing the Governments bidding, yet again. The effect can be seen on this thread - the focus on the few fraudsters rather than the majority who will suffer, and don't deserve to, because of the cuts.

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Is proposing silly conspiracy theories a national hobby or something? I can in no way imagine a situation where a current affairs programme would focus on a topic which has been discussed substantially in the recent months. :rolleyes:

Certainly, there's a possibility that the reason it's in the news in the first place is a certain amount of FF media manipulation, direct and indirect.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Just find it strange that social welfare is the focus of your rage when there is far worse fraund and tax evasion going on. Not defending it whatsoever and social welfare fraud needs to be cut out and they should invest in a task force.

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Out of interest what tax evasion are you talking about??

As an aside, I know the Revenue have substantially increased their efforts and audits in recent times to bring in extra cash and by and large it has worked.

Overall I thought the Budget was quite good, provided what was needed but perhaps couldve gone further on the stimulus side and job creation. As ever with the budget I will be surprised if 90% of what was announced will actually be implemented in the Finance Act. I cant see the level of cuts to public sector pay sticking, as necessary as I think they are.

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Originally Posted by John83

Is proposing silly conspiracy theories a national hobby or something? I can in no way imagine a situation where a current affairs programme would focus on a topic which has been discussed substantially in the recent months. :rolleyes:

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The content isn't the issue, the timing of the broadcast stinks. If you choose to believe RTE is independent that's your perogative. Even ignoring the fact it's stacked with FF heads in key programmes, the way their news often reports various stories (from The Tribunals to the Shell to Sea protests) with a total lack of balance suggests otherwise to me.

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

I understand all that but reporting to the authorities is also not the done thing where I am from.

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I don't care what the "done thing" is, and you should be embarassed by your neighbourhood if that's the case. You can get a SIM card from Tesco for €3; free with €10 worth of credit. Go and buy one and report it, or stop complaining. You have no right to complain if you don't have the balls to report it. That's if it's actually true, because I've heard more of these me-grannys-sisters-aunt-knows-a-guy than I care to hear.

Produce evidence, complain to the authorities, or be quiet and stop embarassing yourself and your neighbourhood.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Just find it strange that social welfare is the focus of your rage when there is far worse fraund and tax evasion going on. Not defending it whatsoever and social welfare fraud needs to be cut out and they should invest in a task force.

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mainly because its what we were talking about.
and again im not talking about the fraud side of things
just the attitude that you would be better off on the dole , which many people decide to go down that road and turns out they are which to me is terribly unfair that a family with neither parent working can have more than a family with both parents working because its their rights , where is the fairness in that

According to Gilmore, no-one blinked, Gov.ie threw their toys out of the plan on purpose. I think what's more relevant about that article is that Labour were able to stall the bill "on a number of occasions" by calling for a quorum. At one of the most important times in the legislative year, none of our elected representatives can actually be bothered to turn up.

Their pay shouldn't be cut, it should be index-linked to attendance.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

I don't care what the "done thing" is, and you should be embarassed by your neighbourhood if that's the case. You can get a SIM card from Tesco for €3; free with €10 worth of credit. Go and buy one and report it, or stop complaining. You have no right to complain if you don't have the balls to report it. That's if it's actually true, because I've heard more of these me-grannys-sisters-aunt-knows-a-guy than I care to hear.

Produce evidence, complain to the authorities, or be quiet and stop embarassing yourself and your neighbourhood.

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Nope, not a snitch never was - that's not my business.
Balls!!! Ha ha that's funny - that's totally not the case - I guess we just have different characters and backgrounds.

Also you kind of missed a point as well (although I wasnt strong in making it!) - most of these people are entitled to the dole, they have "reasons" to be on it. Its the system that is the problem and people taking advantage.

Complaining? Yeah sure, but again my post was also in response to someone who said he never see this carry on - it was a response to say it does happen and a lot. People ARE abusing the social welfare system and because THEY CAN.

Adam, linking it to attendance would be a start, but I think TDs pay scales should have been docked further anyway, independant to the general Public service cut.

I'd like to ask How many Tds took a paycut in becoming a public representitive? Very few,,, yes there are Doctors, the odd lawyer and even barrister who no doubt add value to the Dail but there are some who had they not had the balls, cute whorism skills (sic) & a bit of pull would remain in the private sector earning an average industrail wage. It's a fact the private sector had determined their nett worth (through the salary, position in industry etc they had attained prior to election) and in my mind a true indication of the wastage we have.
Yes we need to make it attractive to get the right caliber of person but how many son's of Tds are elected simply because of who they are?

(Mods, move this to Public sector cost cutting if it's OT)

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

Nope, not a snitch never was - that's not my business.
Balls!!! Ha ha that's funny - that's totally not the case - I guess we just have different characters and backgrounds.

Also you kind of missed a point as well (although I wasnt strong in making it!) - most of these people are entitled to the dole, they have "reasons" to be on it. Its the system that is the problem and people taking advantage.

Complaining? Yeah sure, but again my post was also in response to someone who said he never see this carry on - it was a response to say it does happen and a lot. People ARE abusing the social welfare system and because THEY CAN.

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this basically sums up my point

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

Nope, not a snitch never was - that's not my business.
Balls!!! Ha ha that's funny - that's totally not the case - I guess we just have different characters and backgrounds.

Also you kind of missed a point as well (although I wasnt strong in making it!) - most of these people are entitled to the dole, they have "reasons" to be on it. Its the system that is the problem and people taking advantage.

Complaining? Yeah sure, but again my post was also in response to someone who said he never see this carry on - it was a response to say it does happen and a lot. People ARE abusing the social welfare system and because THEY CAN.

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Who said they never see this carry on. Just curious.

I'll be honest with you bennocelt, I don't believe the story you told, and I have my doubts you do, because if you did and you had an ounce of respect for yourself, the people around you, and your country, you'd report it.

You also seem manifestly incapable of coming up with a solution to the problem you're highlighting - and I'm not per se denying, by the way - another typical trait of the barroom Oirish bitcher. There are three possible solutions to the problem:

1) What Fianna Fail are doing, which is frankly what I'd expect of them. Juvenile, imbecilic, badly thought out, transferance of the problem.

2) A network of social welfare investigators swathing the country, swooping on social welfare recipients on a regular basis to try to catch them out. I'm surprised FF didn't try passing this off on the Oirish as a solution to the employment problem. Howja like that in your area?

3) Irish people doing their duty and reporting obvious, major abuses of the system. You call that snitching, which is your right. I call that secondary school level opinion, and while I'm not surprised by it, I am embarrassed by it. You should be to. This is Ireland, not Compton.

adam

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

I'll be honest with you bennocelt, I don't believe the story you told, and I have my doubts you do, because if you did and you had an ounce of respect for yourself, the people around you, and your country, you'd report it.

3) Irish people doing their duty and reporting obvious, major abuses of the system. You call that snitching, which is your right. I call that secondary school level opinion, and while I'm not surprised by it, I am embarrassed by it. You should be to. This is Ireland, not Compton.

adam

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So now I'm lying:( -
Yeah cause its beyond the realms of possibility that for example a young single woman with a few kids can get a nice wad of money from the social and have a man handing her some dough as well every week
Or that young men with nothing to do all day spend there time in the pubs and betting shops
Or that a couple can be on disability benefit - which apparently they are entitled to be on - but heh aren't we all a bit sick in the head anyway!

I live in Ireland - if I had to spend my whole day reporting dodgy behaviour I would get tired fairly quickly
Its not the done thing, if people want to do these things that's their business - I mean the system would be on their side after all