Shane Duffy D Norwich b.1992

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15/06/2009, 1:13 PM
Gather round

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngirish

And this qualification series lasted 4-5 years did it?

I didn't claim it did. The clue's in the name 'Euro 08'.

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Your friendly results have been dire in that time

No-one would claim they were great, but we did thrash Georgia, beat Finland away and draw in Scotland in between the poorer performances

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and all your difficult games have still to come so don't get your hopes up too much

I haven't- I simply pointed out that, in this tournament to date, our overall standard is almost identical to yours. Not infinitely different, as you claimed.

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You've played San Marino twice, not quite the same as taking 6 points of Georgia imo

Yes, San Marino are the weakest team in Europe so clearly a bonus for us. But otherwise, we're matching you because in this tournament- like the last- we've won most of our home games (eight of the last nine).

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I'd be surprised if you get more than a single point from your remaining games. 3 at the most

We'd be favorite to beat Slovakia, given that home record. But yes, we probably need to win an away game to finish in the top two.

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The bottom line is your results have not been consistently better than ours over a 4 - 5 year period or anything like it

Yes, like I said it's a three year period. During which we've beaten you in one tournament and are matching in another. No need to keep mentioning the 4-5 years to me.

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You've had a brief spell of about a year when we had someone retarded in charge of our national team

Charming, but irrelevant. Unless you're suggesting that there's a handicap system after choosing the wrong coach.

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when you had a couple of good results against decent opposition but overall you finished about as far from qualifying as we did

You finished 10 points behind the runner up, we were only six. In a 12 game league that's significant.

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Personally I wouldn't let it go to my head

I haven't.
15/06/2009, 1:19 PM
gspain

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngirish

I wholeheartedly apologise to all the retarded people out there for comparing them unfavourably with our ex manager. I'm sorry.

As I stated earlier nearly all those results were in a period of 12 months not 4-5 years.

England 2005
Spain 2006
Sweden and Denmark 2007.

Even allowing for Poland 2009 which I left out, it is hardly a period of 12 months.

I assume the ex manager you refer to is the one who earned 102 caps for his country and played in 3 world cups. He was way out of his depth as a manager but there is no need to get offensive to him and others.
15/06/2009, 1:20 PM
Gather round

Quote:

Originally Posted by gspain

I don't think Northern Ireland have been better than us over the past 4-5 years but unfortunately the FIFA rankings suggest otherwise. They have actually managed to beat decent opposition in the period incl England, Spain, Sweden and Denmark. They have also lost to Latvia and Iceland

I prefer actual qualifying record over 10 or 12 games, to FIFA rankings which can distort the effect of individual matches.

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We have imo a better chance of making the playoffs and consequently a better chance of going to the world cup. I think that would be the time to make such claims

Indeed. Generally speaking, I think you only need the rankings at the end of each qualifying series, to determine seedings for the next one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

Stan's competitive record is better than Worthlesston's. Stan was clearly out of his depth but so is Worthlesston. Long may Nigel's reign continue ;)

NW continues to get plenty of similar criticism from some NI fans, but to be fair he's beaten Denmark, Poland and Slovenia and managed decent draws with Sweden and Czechia. I can't see how that's clearly out of his depth. He's managing a small country team which doesn't normally qualify, not Brazil or Italy.

Qualifying records:

Staunton 12-4-5-3-17

Worthington 13-6-2-5-20
15/06/2009, 1:30 PM
Drumcondra 69er

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

Charming, but irrelevant. Unless you're suggesting that there's a handicap system after choosing the wrong coach.

Was that turn of phrase intentional given Youngirish's description of Stan?? ;)
15/06/2009, 1:33 PM
youngirish

Quote:

Originally Posted by gspain

England 2005
Spain 2006
Sweden and Denmark 2007.

Even allowing for Poland 2009 which I left out, it is hardly a period of 12 months.

I assume the ex manager you refer to is the one who earned 102 caps for his country and played in 3 world cups. He was way out of his depth as a manager but there is no need to get offensive to him and others.

I'll refrain from the use of this word from now on then if people find it that offensive. Surely there are more deserving causes to devote your energies to though than sticking up for the likes of Steve Staunton.

Personally, however, I have little sympathy for Stan and feel he deserves little credit from Irish fans for his refusal to do the decent thing and forego his multi mllion euro payoff and admit he was out of his depth. It must have been clear to him long before he was dismissed that the fans wanted him out. It's not like he needed this money which could have been used to much better effect elsewhere in the FAI.

If he loved his country as much as people on here seem to suggest he'd have walked before being pushed. If I was as wealthy as he undoubtedly is I'd walk away in a heartbeat if I thought I was doing more harm than good to the Irish team. he instead hung on for dear life for his millions and dragged us deeper into the ditch we are only now beginning to crawl out of.
15/06/2009, 1:33 PM
Gather round

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

Was that turn of phrase intentional given Youngirish's description of Stan?? ;)

No offence intended, it was unintentional.
15/06/2009, 1:38 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngirish

Are you seriously claiming that for 4-5 years NI's results have been better than ours?
Grow up.

That is exactly what I am claiming. Here is why.

FIFA Rankings:
Now one could argue all night over the merit of, say, a victory over Gabon as against that of one over Albania, similarly the relative merits eg of friendlies as against competitive games etc.
Nonetheless, when it comes to determining the overall trend between two teams in the same Confederation, over the course of nearly 50 games, then the Rankings give a reliable general picture.
In Jan 2004, NI were 124 in the FIFA Rankings, with ROI at 14.
By June 2009, whilst ROI had dropped 20 places (to 34th), NI had risen 97 places to overtake them (27th).
There can be no other credible explanation for such a relative disparity in performances than that NI's results were consistently better than ROI's over the period - especially seeing as they are worked out with a 48 month assessment period (i.e. it took us to the end of 2007 to work out completely a series of poor results prior to 2004)

Qualification
In the Euro08 Qualifiers, we were still in contention up until the final game, eventually finishing with 20 points in a tough Group. (This was after our previous poor form had caused us to be Seeded in Pot 6 for these purposes)
By contrast, ROI were Seeded 3rd (2nd?) in a much easier Group, yet were out of contention with three games to go, eventually finishing with just 17 points.
And for WC2010, we are currently in 2nd place in a Group which has 5 teams in serious contention, whereas ROI are 2nd in a Group which effectively is "two from three to qualify".

Seeding
During the period in question, NI have risen from being UEFA 6th Seeds to being 3rd Seeds (currently according to "Edgar" just in the 2nd Pot, though I doubt it will last). I'm not sure what ROI's seedings were around 2005 (3rd? 2nd?), but they are still in the 3rd Pot.

Performances
We can argue all night whether eg a 5-2 defeat by Cyprus is better/worse than a 3-0 defeat by Iceland - each side has its share of embarrassments etc.
However, only one team has notable victories to be proud of. Namely, in the last 4 years, NI has secured competitive wins over England, Spain, Sweden, Denmark, Poland and Slovenia.
When was the last time ROI beat a decent ranking team in a competitive match? :eek:

Now I'm not claiming that this is going to last, since these things tend to come in cyles. And I am well aware that our present "up-cycle" has coincided with a mini "down-cycle" for ROI.

But two things strike me about your post (and those of certain others), namely that your (unsupportable) disparagement of the NI team in recent years is the direct converse of your (inflated) opinion of the ROI team.

So before advising me to "grow up", you might first have been advised to take a look in the mirror and ask yourself why your name is "Young Irish"...;)
15/06/2009, 1:59 PM
ifk101

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Performances
We can argue all night whether eg a 5-2 defeat by Cyprus is better/worse than a 3-0 defeat by Iceland - each side has its share of embarrassments etc.
However, only one team has notable victories to be proud of. Namely, in the last 4 years, NI has secured competitive wins over England, Spain, Sweden, Denmark, Poland and Slovenia.
When was the last time ROI beat a decent ranking team in a competitive match? :eek:

You can take pride in one-off results against high ranking teams but if those results don't ultimately lead to qualification, they don't matter. For example, beating Spain at home and then losing away to Spain just cancels out the impact that home win had.

Qualification demands a consistent level of results which NI can't produce - for example, the win against Spain is offset by home and away defeats against teams like Iceland. It's good that you take pride in those victories though EG ;) but I think it just highlights the difference in aspiration levels between the two teams.
15/06/2009, 2:16 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

You can take pride in one-off results against high ranking teams but if those results don't ultimately lead to qualification, they don't matter.

Excuse me, but you haven't qualified* during the period in question, either!

Anyhow, the debate was which of the two teams results were better during the last five years. I argued that it was NI, based on a number of criteria. Included in these were Ranking, Qualification and Seeding, which I note you've (conveniently) ignored.

Which in any case is where those victories came in. Namely, a 2-1 competitive win over Sweden counts for more in the Rankings than a friendly 4-0 victory. Also, if a team is to qualify, it is not enough merely to beat the lesser teams every time, but it is also essential to gain the odd victory over the top teams.
And even if NI haven't always managed both, the former is a hell of a sight easier than the latter, which is why we came reasonably close to qualifying for Euro08, whereas ROI were never in the running.

P.S. I'm still waiting for someone to remind me when was the last time ROI beat a decent rated team in a competitive game...

* - Or did I miss something? :eek:
15/06/2009, 2:18 PM
youngirish

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

But two things strike me about your post (and those of certain others), namely that your (unsupportable) disparagement of the NI team in recent years is the direct converse of your (inflated) opinion of the ROI team.

Your whole argument is based on a very small number of decent home results . NI still finished nowhere in the shake up for qualification for Euro 2008 and as I mentioned in your previous attempt at qualification for WC 2006 (within that 4-5 year period) you were absolutely dreadful. 1 or 2 decent results count for nothing in international football. You need consistent performances throughout the whole of qualification. Who cares if you beat Spain but then undo that good work with a terrible result against Iceland or Latvia in the next game? It means nothing. It's your final points total and placing at the end of qualification that matters in which case you got 3 more in the last qualification.

To sum up I don't think ROI are a particularly good team as can be easily determined by looking through any of my previous posts regarding our team but we are way better than Northern Ireland and have been for every year in the past 2 decades minus a very dark spell in our history for a 12 month period under Stan when we were both at a similar level.

Add both teams points totals for the two last qualification campaigns within that 4-5 year period you mentioned and you'll see who has been consistently better and then stand in the corner and hang your head in shame for talking orange tinted biased drivel as per usual.

P.S. See Wales and Slovakia that have both beaten you within that 5 year period? Did you know we have beaten both within that same period?
15/06/2009, 2:28 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngirish

Your whole argument is based on a very small number of decent home results.

Utter Bull. I relied on the FIFA Rankings (plus Qualification and Seeding), which over the period in question (2004-2009) comprise nearly 50 games for each team i.e. wins, draws and losses, home and away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngirish

then stand in the corner and hang your head in shame for talking orange tinted biased drivel as per usual.

First you insult the mentally handicapped with your "retarded" remark, now you attempt to insult me with a disgraceful sectarian epithet.

Shame indeed...:mad:
15/06/2009, 2:34 PM
ifk101

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

P.S. I'm still waiting for someone to remind me when was the last time ROI beat a decent rated team in a competitive game...

I don't know. You tell me. :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

* - Or did I miss something? :eek:

Yes - Shane Duffy is the topic of discussion. ;) But to elaborate, the goal for all teams is to get to a European Championships or a World Cup. If a qualification campaign doesn't ultimately end in the achievement of this goal - it has been a failure (but obviously certain teams take pride in an odd victory here and there). Comparing the performance of two teams that haven't qualify for anything in the last so many years is a pointless exercise and will just turn this thread into a slagging match. But I suppose that's what you want, youngirish has made his appearance, and the thread will now be locked ....
15/06/2009, 2:38 PM
youngirish

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Utter Bull. I relied on the FIFA Rankings (plus Qualification and Seeding), which over the period in question (2004-2009) comprise nearly 50 games for each team i.e. wins, draws and losses, home and away.

We were higher than you in those rankings for about 4 of those 5 years and have been again up until recently so what's your point? So does our consistency over a 5 year period change on a month to month basis when and only when FIFA release their rankings even if we haven't played anyone in the meantime? Haven't you before claimed the rankings are a dubious way to compare the merits of 2 teams on numerous occasions but I suppose it wasn't in your interest to promote their validity at that point. Btw our seedings are the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

First you insult the mentally handicapped with your "retarded" remark, now you attempt to insult me with a disgraceful sectarian epithet.

Shame indeed...:mad:

I've already apologised to retarded people the world over. To say someone's view is orange tinted is of course sectarian slander of the highest magnitude (I've stated as such before and you haven't complained, looking for me to be banned I take it because I've picked holes in your worthless point of view?). How have you never been banned considering you manage to turn most threads into pointless NI are better than the ROI breakaway team with your snide comments and whimsical claims.

The bullsh*t you come on here spouting on a regular basis with your clear anti-ROI agenda is the real sectarian bigotry.
15/06/2009, 2:39 PM
Gather round

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngirish

NI still finished nowhere in the shake up for qualification for Euro 2008...Its your final points total and placing at the end of qualification that matters in which case you got 3 more in the last qualification

Really depends what you mean by 'finished nowhere'. I reckon staying in contention until half-time in the 12th game is rather better than that.

Quote:

To sum up I don't think ROI are a particularly good team...but we are way better than Northern Ireland and have been for every year in the past 2 decades minus a very dark spell in our history for a 12 months period under Stan when we were both at a similar level

But you just aren't way better in WC 2010, as you weren't in Euro 08. I can see that you think the FIFA rankings can be distorting to the point of absurdity (I agree), and that you may regard much of the above as a wind-up, but over the last three years the rankings are fair enough.

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hang your head in shame for talking orange tinted biased drivel as per usual

What's orange about it?
15/06/2009, 2:46 PM
Drumcondra 69er

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

No offence intended, it was unintentional.

None taken hence the wink! Was going to post a laugh but thought it might have been inappropriate!
15/06/2009, 2:49 PM
tetsujin1979

So, is Shane Duffy going to play for us or not?
15/06/2009, 2:52 PM
Drumcondra 69er

Quote:

Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

So, is Shane Duffy going to play for us or not?

Maybe he's trying to work out who's results have been better over the last 4/5 years before making a commitment?

Anyone got any idea?
15/06/2009, 3:18 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

Yes - Shane Duffy is the topic of discussion. ;)

Comparing the performance of two teams that haven't qualify for anything in the last so many years is a pointless exercise and will just turn this thread into a slagging match.

Although it has moved some way of the direct point, the thread has gone from Shane Duffy, to SD being eligible for both countries, to his likelihood of getting picked by either, to which of the two teams is the "better".
As threads go, I actually think this one has a more logical rationale than most!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

But I suppose that's what you want,

No, what I want (as a fan) is to defend my team when I consider it to be getting unfairly slagged off.
I thought that that was how these fans' forums tended to work...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

youngirish has made his appearance, and the thread will now be locked ....

Then why don't you take that up with YI (or the Mods) since he is the one who has made the contentious and insulting remarks?
Meanwhile, I will answer for the propriety or otherwise of any of my posts you care to cite.
15/06/2009, 3:48 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngirish

We were higher than you in those rankings for about 4 of those 5 years and have been again up until recently so what's your point? So does our consistency over a 5 year period change on a month to month basis when and only when FIFA release their rankings even if we haven't played anyone in the meantime?

My point is that with an evaluation period of four years, the likes of eg Iceland could not overtake Spain if they were to win all their games for the next year or two and Spain were to lose all theirs.
Which is precisely why ROI were ahead of NI in the rankings for most of the last 5 1/2 years, despite NI gaining considerably more points over the course of nearly 50 games than ROI.
Despite that, that greater points haul also explains why we are currently higher in the Rankings than ROI.
And in case you still haven't twigged how this (not-so-very-difficult) process works, points come from winning and drawing matches, and the best teams win and draw the most matches - QED.

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngirish

I've already apologised to retarded people the world over.

Good for you. Mind you, it might have been better to have thought before posting in the first place...:rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngirish

To say someone's view is orange tinted is of course secterian slander of the highest magnitude.

No, it is introducing an entirely unnecessary and provocative element to a reasonable debate which was proceeding nicely, without offence being either given or taken, until your intervention.

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngirish

(I've stated as such before and you haven't complained, looking for me to be banned I take it because I've picked holes in your worthless point of view?).

If I wanted you banned, I'd complain to Mods. I have not done so, nor never would - both because "no-one likes a sneak", but also because leaving your posts up for all to see invariably validates my point, rather than yours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngirish

How have you never been banned

Actually, like almost everything else, you're wrong about that, too, since I was once given a brief ban soon after I began posting here.
However, having learned my lesson*, I have resolved to stay within the spirit and the letter of the Rules.

* - About the stricter Moderation on this Board than others I was used to

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngirish

considering you manage to turn most threads into pointless NI are better than the ROI breakaway team with your snide comments and whimsical claims.

This thread is about Shane Duffy, a player who is qualified to represent both teams. It is hardly off-topic for the discussion to revert to which team he might choose, more specifically, which would be the "better" choice for him (from a career pov).
The concensus here being that "ROI is best", I have merely offered my opinion that whilst the NI team has performed better over the last 4-5 years, due to Duffy being a CB, he might actually find it easier to get into the ROI team, seeing as CB is our strongest position.

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngirish

The bullsh*t you come on here spouting on a regular basis with your clear anti ROI agenda is the real secterian bigotry.

You were the one who introduced an entirely uninvited sectarian tone into this thread, yet you accuse me of being the sectarian bigot.

Hell, you can't even spell the bloody word...:rolleyes:
15/06/2009, 4:03 PM
youngirish

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Hell, you can't even spell the bloody word...:rolleyes:

I corrected this mistake ages ago just after I posted the initial message in fact - keep up. I often make such mistakes because unlike you I don't spend an hour writing a reply, a point that's proven when you continued to quote a post I changed 70 minutes after I corrected the initial mistake.

This is an internet forum, it's not a spelling contest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

The concensus here being that "ROI is best", I have merely offered my opinion that whilst the NI team has performed better over the last 4-5 years, due to Duffy being a CB, he might actually find it easier to get into the ROI team, seeing as CB is our strongest position.

I've already pointed out why you haven't been consistently better for anything like 5 years. Again keep up. If you think the likes of Aaron Hughes is a better player than O'Shea, Dunne or St Ledger then you truly are as clueless as your posts seem to imply you to be.

P.S. Btw it's spelt consensus smartar*e.

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