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12/03/2009, 11:46 AM
Pike B

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

Absolutely. If its 30 shots on target, the keeper was great, wins motm and defintiely deserves a draw. If its 30 shots off target thats absolutely disgraceful fiishing. Surely finishing and goalkeeping are important in the game? What do corners mean? barcelona regularly has 70% of possession. You think they "deserve" to win every game?

Whats lucky about missing that target? Whats lucky about a keeper saving 30 shots? Suppose Schmeical was the luckiest keeper in the world?

You think I'm the alien and you want the game to be settled on corners?

The corners are just an example of how team can pin another into there own area.
I play at a Junior level in Limerick, and whether its there or the Champions League, you DO NOT, always get what you deserve. That is far too black and white man.
If I play Sunday with a team of regular below average players(we're battling relegation) and we're up against far superior opposition, we dig in. We ride our luck sometimes. Sometimes the results come, most of the time not. Do we deserve to be where we are? Yes, as we lack quality in several areas, but it's not as plain as you make it sound. There are games, such as Man Utd last night, where teams deserve more aka Inter. I totally disagree with your one dimensional theory on this.
Football like life doesn't always follow the 'you get what you deserve' tag.
12/03/2009, 11:49 AM
Pike B

Quote:

Originally Posted by micls

Bad luck is just an excuse used when you dont do something right.

It's not anymore unlucky to hit the post that to hit the corner flag, it just means you didnt place the ball in the right place. Players have games where they cant score, not because of bad luck but because they're striking the ball wrong.

If a team has 30 shots on goal they should have a striker good enough to convert one of them.

If they miss all of them then its either poor finishing or excellent goalkeeping, nothing else.

Ive shouted 'unlucky' as much as anyone else, but thats just a way to try to encourage people for a good effort. Its not actually unlucky it just wasnt good enough.

Strange deflections/high winds/ bad refereeing are the only things I would consider similar to 'luck' in football

You must be looking for Robots then mate, because humans make mistakes. Even the very best footballers. Maradona Platini even Van Basten missed penalties. Rubbish players really... ;)
12/03/2009, 12:02 PM
DeLorean

Quote:

Originally Posted by micls

It's not anymore unlucky to hit the post that to hit the corner flag

I don't think there's any point in even debating against this kind of stuff.

Dodge- I would agree that teams in general make there own luck and the cream generally come to the top and all that racket. Also it is true that gks and defenders are every bit as vital as the players at the other end. However sometimes in football you don't always get what you deserve. I think disputing this is ludacris. Most managers makes references to hopefully getting a break or a bit of luck along the way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

Nothing simplistic about it at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

The only cause for complaint any team can have is if they lose due to a referee's incorrect decision. Every other time they get the result they deserve

Seems fairly simple to me!!
12/03/2009, 12:06 PM
Dodge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pike B

You must be looking for Robots then mate, because humans make mistakes. Even the very best footballers. Maradona Platini even Van Basten missed penalties. Rubbish players really... ;)

Mistakes. Thats exactly what they are. Thats nothing to do with luck. How is van basten not scoring from 12 yards with only the keeper to beat unlucky? Either he made a mistake or the keeper made a great save?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pike B

The corners are just an example of how team can pin another into there own area.

Or an example of how a team comfortable at defending corners is happy to give away so many. As I said stats are useless in football

Quote:

I play at a Junior level in Limerick, and whether its there or the Champions League, you DO NOT, always get what you deserve. That is far too black and white man.
If I play Sunday with a team of regular below average players(we're battling relegation) and we're up against far superior opposition, we dig in. We ride our luck sometimes. Sometimes the results come, most of the time not. Do we deserve to be where we are? Yes, as we lack quality in several areas, but it's not as plain as you make it sound. There are games, such as Man Utd last night, where teams deserve more aka Inter. I totally disagree with your one dimensional theory on this.
Football like life doesn't always follow the 'you get what you deserve' tag.

But you haven't giving me a single point to argue what I said. Everythign in football builds up to the score. Everything is relevent. If you work harder than the opposition but they're more talented who "deserves to win". I'm happy to argue which team created more chances, and which team controlled the tempo of the game but these are only small parts in the overall game.

Look at Italian teams of the 70s and 80s. They were built around soaking up as much pressure as possible and then squeaking out 1-0 wins. Are you saying that those teams were undeserving winners? The absolute beauty of football is that there are so many different styles, techniques, tactics and formations that stats and possesion are useless. Their can only be one winner, and that team generally deserves it (with the caveat that teams can absolutely be "robbed" by officials)
12/03/2009, 12:08 PM
Dodge

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarelyLegal

However sometimes in football you don't always get what you deserve. I think disputing this is ludacris.

care to argue with any single point I made?

Quote:

Most managers makes references to hopefully getting a break or a bit of luck along the way.

Thats because most managers play to the crowd.

Quote:

Seems fairly simple to me!!

Simple doesn't equate to simplistic
12/03/2009, 12:16 PM
Pike B

Your a lost cause Dodge. And if I had to guess, I would say you don't play the game.
12/03/2009, 12:30 PM
DeLorean

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

care to argue with any single point I made?

I'd prefer to discuss. I thought I had been debating your point. You only have one point that I can see - there is no luck in football unless the ref rob's you? maybe I am missing all those other points you were making. Of course there is no right or wrong here really but I happen to believe that sometimes you don't get what you deserve and sometimes you get more than you deserve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

Thats because most managers play to the crowd.

I've heard Ferguson saying it countless times when asked about this quadrouple possibility. I don't see how he is playing the crowd he just recognises that United aren't going to be outstanding every match and may need a break along the way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

Simple doesn't equate to simplistic

Thanks for the English lesson but I think you'll find there is a link between the two. By not believing in luck you are igoring a big part of the game and therefore making it out to be more simple than it actually is, ie. simplistic view.
12/03/2009, 12:35 PM
Pike B

What he said... :)
12/03/2009, 12:50 PM
micls

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pike B

You must be looking for Robots then mate, because humans make mistakes. Even the very best footballers. Maradona Platini even Van Basten missed penalties. Rubbish players really... ;)

Exactly. They are mistakes, not luck

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarelyLegal

I don't think there's any point in even debating against this kind of stuff.

Good response when you've nothing to say alright.

Of course it takes more skill to hit the post than the corner flag(if you're aiming for the goal) but 'luck' has no more impact on either. If you aim at teh goal and hit the corner flag, you're basically rubbish. If you aim for the goal and hit the post, then it was a much better attempt than the one that hit the flag but still not accurate enough to go in.

There's no luck involved in either

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarelyLegal

However sometimes in football you don't always get what you deserve. I think disputing this is ludacris.

I think blaming an unquantifiable thing called luck because you couldnt get the ball over the line is ludicrous....

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarelyLegal

Most managers makes references to hopefully getting a break or a bit of luck along the way.

You're right...most managers like to make up excuses alright. As do most people in fact. It doesnt make it reality though.
12/03/2009, 12:51 PM
Pike B

Quote:

Originally Posted by micls

Exactly. They are mistakes, not luck

Good response when you've nothing to say alright.

Of course it takes more skill to hit the post than the corner flag(if you're aiming for the goal) but 'luck' has no more impact on either. If you aim at teh goal and hit the corner flag, you're basically rubbish. If you aim for the goal and hit the post, then it was a much better attempt than the one that hit the flag but still not accurate enough to go in.

There's no luck involved in either

I think blaming an unquantifiable thing called luck because you couldnt get the ball over the line is ludicrous....

You're right...most managers like to make up excuses alright. As do most people in fact. It doesnt make it reality though.

I bet you never kicked a ball in your life.
12/03/2009, 12:52 PM
micls

Again. getting what you 'deserve' is completely subjective. One person may think they deserve one thing and others might think the complete opposite.

Teams may not get what they 'deserve' in their opinions but they certainly get what they've earned
12/03/2009, 12:53 PM
micls

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pike B

I bet you never kicked a ball in your life.

I bet you're wrong....

But either way its irrelevant. Footballers arent someone more qualified to decide if something is 'luck' or not. In fact theyre probably less qualified as they are completely biased
12/03/2009, 12:58 PM
Pike B

Quote:

Originally Posted by micls

I bet you're wrong....

But either way its irrelevant. Footballers arent someone more qualified to decide if something is 'luck' or not. In fact theyre probably less qualified as they are completely biased

Nah, I bet your one of these guys I see in every club, (a lot in my own) that is an expert in a game they weren't good enough to play for long or at all. Bitter, twisted and jealous of the top class players they wish they were.
Spouting such drivel as 'He's rubbish', 'How did you miss that one' or the classic 'I'd have scored that myself'...

Honestly man. It's a game, played by people. Luck, mistakes, misfortune all happen every game..
12/03/2009, 1:02 PM
Closed Account 2

Did Mirko Vucinic take the worst penalty ever seen in the Champions League ? I remember Ivica Vastic of Sturm Graz hitting a bad one 10 or so years ago, but Vucinic's was so soft... they say you should always hit the target in a shoot out, but I think it would have been less embarassing if he'd smashed it out of the stadium.
12/03/2009, 1:05 PM
micls

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pike B

Nah, I bet your one of these guys I see in every club, (a lot in my own) that is an expert in a game they weren't good enough to play for long or at all. Bitter, twisted and jealous of the top class players they wish they were.
Spouting such drivel as 'He's rubbish', 'How did you miss that one' or the classic 'I'd have scored that myself'...

Honestly man. It's a game, played by people. Luck, mistakes, misfortune all happen every game..

1) Im not a guy
2)I played for a laugh
3) Im not bitter twisted or jealous. I love football and I love watching players, particularly younger players, succeed at it
4) I rarely shout things like he's rubbish(although when Denis is playing....)
5) None of that has anything at all to do with anything I posted and is probably one of the most random things Ive seen on the forum. how the phuck did you get that rubbish from me not believing in luck :confused: Put away your 'pop psychology' book lad.

It's not a game, it's a sport. games are based on luck(chance) where players have little input e.g monopoly.

In sport the what happens is based on what people do, what they do right, what they do wrong and the mistakes they made. Not luck(unless its a refereeing decision etc). Luck is simply an overused excuse.

You still havent actually debated any of the point. If someone is one on one and hits the post is it because of luck or because they didnt kick the ball in a way that would put it into the goal? Im not criticising players for missing oppotunities as you said, they're human and mistakes happen, or maybe they just dont have the skill to pull it off,or are having a bad game. but its down to the players not luck.
12/03/2009, 1:15 PM
gustavo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pike B

Nah, I bet your one of these guys I see in every club, (a lot in my own) that is an expert in a game they weren't good enough to play for long or at all. Bitter, twisted and jealous of the top class players they wish they were.
Spouting such drivel as 'He's rubbish', 'How did you miss that one' or the classic 'I'd have scored that myself'...

Honestly man. It's a game, played by people. Luck, mistakes, misfortune all happen every game..

Maybe we should calculate a different way of deciding who wins games , so as to remove "luck" , A half a goal if you hit the post something like that :rolleyes:

Oh and I played football last night so that means my point is relevant , Maybe if i play again on Sunday it'll be even more so.
12/03/2009, 1:17 PM
Pike B

The reason I'm not debating it, is because it's not worth debating hunny.
You and Dodge made more ridiculous comments in the last few pages than I've ever seen on here, and frankly I like my fingerprints and don't fancy wasting them away by typing for the next hour about how ridiculous ye sound.

So I'll let you to your little opinion, and I'll keep mine.

Toodles..
12/03/2009, 1:20 PM
DeLorean

Quote:

Originally Posted by micls

Good response when you've nothing to say alright.

Yes because you left me for dead with your top class debate breaking point that was....

Quote:

Originally Posted by micls

It's not anymore unlucky to hit the post that to hit the corner flag

For the record I know what you're saying. You didn't achieve in what you were trying to do with either attempt. Let's try to be real here though- when Ronaldo or whoever lines up a free kick and smashes it off the post from 40 yards then he is close and maybe on another day (with a bit more luck!!) it would have went in off the post. If he hits the corner flag it's just poor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by micls

Luck is simply an overused excuse.

True but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Ye keep telling us to argue ye're points but unless we list a load of matches where one team was better than the other but didn't win I'm not sure exactly how to do that. Ye don't believe luck is a factor in sport and I do...I'm not saying that it is as important as having a good team or a good referee but it is a factor, that's all.
12/03/2009, 1:23 PM
Pike B

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarelyLegal

Yes because you left me for dead with your top class debate breaking point that was....

For the record I know what you're saying. You didn't achieve in what you were trying to do with either attempt. Let's try to be real here though- when Ronaldo or whoever lines up a free kick and smashes it off the post from 40 yards then he is close and maybe on another day (with a bit more luck!!) it would have went in off the post. If he hits the corner flag it's just poor.

True but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Ye keep telling us to argue ye're points but unless we list a load of matches where one team was better than the other but didn't win I'm not sure exactly how to do that. Ye don't believe luck is a factor in sport and I do...I'm not saying that it is as important as having a good team or a good referee but it is a factor, that's all.

You see, I am thinking all of this, but honestly I'm way too lazy a man to bother to type it all. But I'm 100% behind you buddy. Sock it to em.
Anyway, I'm off to play the lotto, it's all skill you know... ;)
12/03/2009, 1:23 PM
DeLorean

Quote:

Originally Posted by gustavo

Maybe we should calculate a different way of deciding who wins games , so as to remove "luck" , A half a goal if you hit the post something like that :rolleyes:

Or a behind like Aussie rules.:eek:

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