Andy Reid(b 1982)

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Originally Posted by SuperDave

Lets keep this on football and leave the ad hominems for the playground.

My point is simply that Andy Reid was obviously considered a squad player before his exclusion, and that no mention of his being on the bench and not playing a part either against Georgia or Montenegro was made on this thread until the truth came out some time later. It is amazing to see how someone who was in reality a bit part player who had one good game against a German side who needed only a point to qualify (and clearly played for that point and would probably have qualified regardless) suddenly becomes a world beating genius as a result of his exclusion.

And as I said, if things were different, I would have him in the squad (and possibly the team but far from definitely) but Trap is the manager and Trap is getting results. If he thinks it is right, I am right behind him.

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By YOUR analysis, he was a bit player, and, whether right or wrong, injuries aside, he should not have only been a bit player. I, and many others, have been an Andy Reid fan for many years, and not as you quizzically say, since his performance against Montenegro ??? One performance that sticks out is v France in Paris*, or is that you are only aware of Andy Reid since the Montenegro game ??? (*in a forced 4-5-1 when Morrison limped off)

Where has anyone said he is “A world beater” , again other than in your reading? Rather than actually looking at his obvious talents, you choose to mock the many who rightfully question his expulsion? Yes, let’s keep it on football and discuss why, with his talents, he should have OBVIOUSLY been in the squad ahead of many others. He is not so because of egotistical reasons i.e. Trap’s.

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Originally Posted by Kingdom

The first thing I saw switching on the MOTD highlights last weekend was Reid controling a dropping ball on the edge of the box dribble wide, lose possession and the opposition missing an absolute sitter, when they shouldn't have had a sniff. Brought a wee smile to the face.

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I think I understand what you are getting at, that Trap has been vindicated because the losing possesion is a big problem, however andrews and whelan also do this throughout games when under pressure bringing high balls down. Also I can hardly see how 1 example of this, is a fair assessment on his exclusion or reasons for exclusions.

Mores the point there shouldn't be any wry smile from anyone when an Irish player does something wrong, even if you feel you are having a "told you so" moment.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Mores the point there shouldn't be any wry smile from anyone when an Irish player does something wrong, even if you feel you are having a "told you so" moment.

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Exactly, you get the impression from some people around here that they would love to see Andy Reid fail. Its a disgraceful attitude to have seeing as he stated even as late as the weekend how 'brilliant' it would be to play for his country again.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

I think I understand what you are getting at, that Trap has been vindicated because the losing possesion is a big problem, however andrews and whelan also do this throughout games when under pressure bringing high balls down. Also I can hardly see how 1 example of this, is a fair assessment on his exclusion or reasons for exclusions.

Mores the point there shouldn't be any wry smile from anyone when an Irish player does something wrong, even if you feel you are having a "told you so" moment.

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And, if you want to look at “losing possession” as criteria for expulsion, Hunt loses the ball I’d say 50% of the time and Wee Aidan probably at least as much as Andy. Sorry, case dismissed for lack of evidence!

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Originally Posted by LFCSixty/Eighty

Exactly, you get the impression from some people around here that they would love to see Andy Reid fail. Its a disgraceful attitude to have seeing as he stated even as late as the weekend how 'brilliant' it would be to play for his country again.

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I should have qualified that statement with "...unless its stephen Ireland of course"

People are way overeacting to opposing opinions here...

You can't question Trapp in anyway without apparently insinuating he's a bumbling fool and dismissing his excellent record. You can't advocate Andy Reids inclusion without being led by some "journalists agenda"....

I don't recall many if any posters advocating that Reid should start and that Trapp should change his formation to accomadate him... This business that anyone who defends Reid thinks he is the "Pirlo" or the "Cure for all ills"??? Come on???

He's a good player with something different to offer our squad in various cappacities and it's apparent from Trapps words and actions (covered in depth on this thread) that there's more to his exclusion than just football ability. And that's frustrating.....

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Well said Emmet. Bulgaria played their star players (Berbatov, Petrov and Petrov) to get the most of their attacking talent, but this was to the overall detriment of the team's entire effectiveness. It's been said here so many times, it's almost a mantra but the best players do not necessarily make the best team.

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It's not like they were playing 4-2-4 or something. Martin Petrov is a left winger playing on the left wing. Berbatov is a top class, if lazy, forward playing up front and Stillian Petrov is a centre midfield player who can play a variety of roles from that position. It's not like they had to change their system or do anything radical to accommodate these guys and I'd suggest that if they weren't in the team they could have fared even worse. Our system has worked for us, no doubt, but to say that other teams should be doing something similar instead of playing their best players makes no sense to me. I honestly think the main difference between Ireland and Bulgaria in this campaign was more to do with team spirit than anything else, and I would give Trap huge credit for that. To be fair there was little or nothing between the teams the two times they met. Bulgaria also drew with Italy and who's to say we wouldn't have lost in Bari if it was a level playing field. They had to go to Tblisi whereas we got afar cushier little trip to an empty stadium in Mainz. They beat Montenegro and we didn't. The most favourable comparison from Ireland's point of view was our win in Cyprus compared to their capitulation. Having said that, when the draw was made for the group we were 3rd seeds and they were 2nd so straight away we had ground to make up, we've done that and more so I'm very happy with how things have gone overall. It baffles me that Andy Reid isn't in the squad but I'd definitely prefer to have Trap and no Andy than Andy and no Trap so c'est la vie. Whether Reid ever makes the squad or not I am delighted with how he's playing at Sunderland and long may it continue. I found Kingdoms post tough reading.

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Originally Posted by dr_peepee

People are way overeacting to opposing opinions here...

You can't question Trapp in anyway without apparently insinuating he's a bumbling fool and dismissing his excellent record. You can't advocate Andy Reids inclusion without being led by some "journalists agenda"....

I don't recall many if any posters advocating that Reid should start and that Trapp should change his formation to accomadate him... This business that anyone who defends Reid thinks he is the "Pirlo" or the "Cure for all ills"??? Come on???

He's a good player with something different to offer our squad in various cappacities and it's apparent from Trapps words and actions (covered in depth on this thread) that there's more to his exclusion than just football ability. And that's frustrating.....

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Well said Dr., totally agree

Scram my point was better. :p

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Scram my point was better. :p

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But of course...which one??

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Originally Posted by dr_peepee

People are way overeacting to opposing opinions here...

You can't question Trapp in anyway without apparently insinuating he's a bumbling fool and dismissing his excellent record. You can't advocate Andy Reids inclusion without being led by some "journalists agenda"....

I don't recall many if any posters advocating that Reid should start and that Trapp should change his formation to accomadate him... This business that anyone who defends Reid thinks he is the "Pirlo" or the "Cure for all ills"??? Come on???

He's a good player with something different to offer our squad in various cappacities and it's apparent from Trapps words and actions (covered in depth on this thread) that there's more to his exclusion than just football ability. And that's frustrating.....

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Exactly, great point. However, I think it was Emmet the 7 year old who accused those "Andy Reid supporters" of believing Trap is a "bumbling old fool"

This is the same Emmet who on another thread more or less stated that people who had not played to a high standard of football knew nothing about the game.....

I feel Trap is a great manager and am glad we have him. However, I also believe I'm entitled to criticise his decisions, and not having Reid available to select could prove disastrous if we need to come from behind. In addition, wrt to him not fitting into the "system", its not as if Whelan and Andrews do good jobs - look at all the goals we've conceded with a "defensive" midfield pairing?.It apears that the only reason Reid is not in the squad is pure stubborness,not tactical.

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Originally Posted by Den Perry

Exactly, great point. However, I think it was Emmet the 7 year old who accused those "Andy Reid supporters" of believing Trap is a "bumbling old fool"

This is the same Emmet who on another thread more or less stated that people who had not played to a high standard of football knew nothing about the game.....

I feel Trap is a great manager and am glad we have him. However, I also believe I'm entitled to criticise his decisions, and not having Reid available to select could prove disastrous if we need to come from behind. In addition, wrt to him not fitting into the "system", its not as if Whelan and Andrews do good jobs - look at all the goals we've conceded with a "defensive" midfield pairing?.It apears that the only reason Reid is not in the squad is pure stubborness,not tactical.

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Despite the fact you cannot post something without throwing in an insult, which seems to stem from some insecurity or other you have, I will respond, although I won't the next time if you continue with immature baiting.

I just don't understand where you Den Perry and your fellow Andy Reid lovers would put him in the side? However, you and your fellow Dunphyites would I believe take off either Whelan or Andrews and put in Andy Reid.

This would completely imbalance the team in the following way. The three creative midfielders would spend most of the match not attacking but tracking back, doubling up, covering and so on and so forth. Two creative midfielders would be required to defend where one defensive midfielder would do.

Our creative players would be in our own half the whole match, their energy wasted defending and doing the job Andrews and Whelan now do.

The sad thing is that some supporters have only interest in the creative players. They have no interest in the players who actually put in the tackles, win the ball back and give it to the creative players. It's sad really. They want samba football from all 11 players, which just isn't possible in any team. Even Brazil have Lucios and the type who tackle and win the ball back, making it available to the Ronaldinhos.

If we all had our way we'd have a team of 11 Messi's. Unfortunately that team would get thrashed because no-one would defend, win the ball back, tackle, etc etc.

Whelan and Andrews provide cover for our creative wide players who don't have to worry about tracking back. Stick Andy Reid in to replace these two central midfielders and that's what all Andy Reid fans suggest and you end up with our creative players spending all their time defending and none of their time attacking.

I really don't think we would have gotten draws against the Italians if Reid was in the side, and I am sure we would have lost. The Italians would have ran all over us in both games and banged in lots of goals.

It's amazing with some Irish supporters. When you draw against the Italians, they say we should have thrashed them. When we beat the Italians as in 94 they say we should have beaten them more.

Can you not just accept it was a good result, the best possible result and it's likely had Reid been in the side for the reasons I state we would have lost, because just like in the Stan era, the balance was all wrong.

Oh my God how many more times is the 'system' going to be explained!! We know how the system works. It's a very simple system that even a 7 year old would understand, no offence Emmet:D Some of us just think that Andy Reid is worth a place, at least, in the squad. Some of us also feel that Whelan and Andrews aren't doing a particularly good job despite the results and Reid couldn't do much worse, even in that role.

By the way Emmet, is that the same Messi that wasn't a great player until he scored against United:D

Also, the way the Italy away game panned out I think Reid would have been in his element to be honest.

To add to my point, here is the Irish team who lost 5-2 to Cyprus in Cyprus.

Rep of Ireland: Kenny, Finnan, O'Shea, Andrew O'Brien (Lee 71), Dunne, Kilbane, McGeady (Alan O'Brien 80), Ireland (Douglas 83), Morrison, Keane, Duff.
Subs Not Used: Henderson, St. Ledger, Foley, Tabb.

A complete lack of defensive midfielders who could win the ball and break down the other team's attacks.

Remember the call to bring Carsley back into the team after this? To provide some steel in the middle of the park.

Andy Reid is not the man to provide defensive steel in the middle of the park. We don't need more creative players, we have enough, and we don't need them in the middle of the park as we had in abundance against Cyprus.

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Originally Posted by Emmet7

Despite the fact you cannot post something without throwing in an insult, which seems to stem from some insecurity or other you have, I will respond, although I won't the next time if you continue with immature baiting.

I just don't understand where you Den Perry and your fellow Andy Reid lovers would put him in the side? However, you and your fellow Dunphyites would I believe take off either Whelan or Andrews and put in Andy Reid.

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Jaysus.'' Pots and kettles'' You have a pop at DP for throwing an insult at you and then straight away insult quite a few Andy Reid supporters by referring to them as Dunphyites. Absolutely comical

As for the rest of your repeated dribble,Just read Dr Peepee post above. He has articulated in such a way that even you should understand what all us 'Dunphyites ' are trying to say.

I read his post and it's a good reasoned post.

He says Andy Reid is not the cure to all our ills and he's right. He's not the cure to our defensive ills which were exposed against Italy for all 3 goals as well as against other teams, ie lack of positioning, lack of taking responsibility at setpieces, lack of attacking the ball in our own half and lack of communication. Defensively we still have problems.

Is he the cure in centre of midfield? No, because a centre midfielder has to be as good at defending as attacking and needs to win the ball back. Johny Giles had a reputation for putting in the hard tackles as well as making great passes. The same with Roy Keane. I don't think Reid is good at making hard tackles. By his own admission he's not a central midfielder. Lee Carsley might be the solution in centre midfield, but a little old now.

So that leaves the wings. I don't think he is the cure on the wings either.

I don't think it's right to look for something different just for the sake of being different. I don't think Reid would have beaten the Italians on his own. I do think we would have been defensively weakened with him in the side.

You couldn't really lay the blame for any of the 3 goals conceded to the Italians at the door of the two central midfielders, in fact can anyone think of one goal conceded in the campaign that can be blamed on either Andrews or Whelan? Goes to show they must be doing something right. The 3 goals conceded against the Italians were the result of naive wing back play in Bari, poor corner kick marking in Croke Park for the first and the defense being pulled out of shape for the second.

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Originally Posted by Emmet7

Despite the fact you cannot post something without throwing in an insult, which seems to stem from some insecurity or other you have, I will respond, although I won't the next time if you continue with immature baiting.

I just don't understand where you Den Perry and your fellow Andy Reid lovers would put him in the side? However, you and your fellow Dunphyites would I believe take off either Whelan or Andrews and put in Andy Reid.

This would completely imbalance the team in the following way. The three creative midfielders would spend most of the match not attacking but tracking back, doubling up, covering and so on and so forth. Two creative midfielders would be required to defend where one defensive midfielder would do.

Our creative players would be in our own half the whole match, their energy wasted defending and doing the job Andrews and Whelan now do.

Whelan and Andrews provide cover for our creative wide players who don't have to worry about tracking back. Stick Andy Reid in to replace these two central midfielders and that's what all Andy Reid fans suggest and you end up with our creative players spending all their time defending and none of their time attacking.

I really don't think we would have gotten draws against the Italians if Reid was in the side, and I am sure we would have lost. The Italians would have ran all over us in both games and banged in lots of goals.

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But I think it's fair to say you're thinking too narrowly in terms of the expectation of Andy Reids supporters/lovers and his own potential contribution to the sqaud beyond Trapps preffered tactic. He has different assets to what's currently in the squad. The course of the 90 minutes on the pitch is not an exact science and is it not wise to have varying options to react accordingly? In ways, it's no different to Trapp throwing on Folan against Italy over there. Circumstances dictated something different was required and we had it readily availible.

Your argument is also based on the fact that his exclusion is solely down to footballing reasons, which I don't believe is the case.

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Originally Posted by Scram

By YOUR analysis, he was a bit player, and, whether right or wrong, injuries aside, he should not have only been a bit player. I, and many others, have been an Andy Reid fan for many years, and not as you quizzically say, since his performance against Montenegro ??? One performance that sticks out is v France in Paris*, or is that you are only aware of Andy Reid since the Montenegro game ??? (*in a forced 4-5-1 when Morrison limped off)

Where has anyone said he is “A world beater” , again other than in your reading? Rather than actually looking at his obvious talents, you choose to mock the many who rightfully question his expulsion? Yes, let’s keep it on football and discuss why, with his talents, he should have OBVIOUSLY been in the squad ahead of many others. He is not so because of egotistical reasons i.e. Trap’s.

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My point was quite simple. I said he was on the bench against Georgia in Mainz and away to Montenegro as well as at home to Cyprus and he played no part in any of those games and there was absolutely no comment about that on this thread. In fact the thread was dormant from April to November 2008! And as my post outlined, I was fully aware of Andy Reid before the Montenegro game, as in the post you quoted I pointed out how well he played at Croke Park against a German side that only needed a point to qualify. For what it's worth, I thought the whole Ireland team played excellently in Paris the last time round, not just Andy Reid.

I am keeping it on football and I think my point was quite balanced. Given that Andy Reid was on the bench at home to Cyprus a full month after whatever happened in Mainz and Trap has a system it looks like he is being excluded on footballing reasons. He was a bit part player for quite some time and no-one ever seemed to take real issue with that prior to his being dropped. I also said that I would have him in the squad at least but that I trust Trap and if Trap doesn't want him, I am happy enough with that. I think we have got to where we are much more because of Trap than in spite of him and I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

Also, I didn't mock anyone. Obviously no-one is actually suggesting Andy Reid is a world beating genius but a little touch of tongue in cheek humour is kind of what this thread needs!

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Originally Posted by dr_peepee

But I think it's fair to say you're thinking too narrowly in terms of the expectation of Andy Reids supporters/lovers and his own potential contribution to the sqaud beyond Trapps preffered tactic. He has different assets to what's currently in the squad. The course of the 90 minutes on the pitch is not an exact science and is it not wise to have varying options to react accordingly? In ways, it's no different to Trapp throwing on Folan against Italy over there. Circumstances dictated something different was required and we had it readily availible.

Your argument is also based on the fact that his exclusion is solely down to footballing reasons, which I don't believe is the case.

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I agree he brings something different. But not to the middle of the field.

If we were 1 - 0 with ten minutes left against a very good attacking team such as France for example, I wouldn't take off a defensive central midfielder and put on an attacking central midfielder, because we probably would concede another goal.

I would put him on the wing if we were chasing a game. Andy Reid is not the solution to the problems, imaginary or otherwise in central midfield.

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Originally Posted by SuperDave

My point was quite simple. I said he was on the bench against Georgia in Mainz and away to Montenegro as well as at home to Cyprus and he played no part in any of those games and there was absolutely no comment about that on this thread. In fact the thread was dormant from April to November 2008!

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At that time though we didn't know what Trap could bring to us. After the first two matches, in which we had Stephen Reid performing well, of course there was no huge cause for concern. It was during/after the Cyprus home match that it became obvious that our centre midfield was non-existent. Plus Andy Reid was in the squad for those game, as you pointed out, which is pretty much all most of us want now.