Printable View
In a way, i don't really care what he does, but if his feelings towards the anthem (and/or the country it is the anthem of) are so strong and so close to the surface that he can't make himself do the same as everybody else and just wait for it to be over, I do wonder how he manages to survive day to day in the UK.
Could have just faced the same way as the rest of the players and put his head down instead of standing sideways. He's just drawing unnecessary attention to himself. Bet he doesn't mind getting his wages with Liz's face on it though....:rolleyes:
i dunno. He grew up in the UK :)Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
The Free Republic of Creggan seceded a long time ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
McClean warned to tone down his "anti-English" behavior.
http://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/socc...t-brom-6097997
Hope West Brom are as proactive when it comes to blocking fans making racist comments on their official Facebook and Twitter profiles.
I remember looking at the FAI Cup final a few years back when Derry City were there and remember a few Derry players did not face the flag of Ireland when the irish anthem was been played and nobody made a fuss over it. They were well within their rights to do so.
Anthems/Flags, whatever, are political constructs and should never be used in any sport imo. UEFA and FIFA talk about football is separate from politics and yet they allow these things to happen!
In a lot of ways the steadfastness of his principles is really admirable but in other ways, you just want him to wind his neck in a bit - for the sake of his career really (like a lot of us do!). He's already made a target of himself with his own fans, never mind the oppo.
Love him though.
You can report comments on social media as racist to the police. Stan Collymore has done this in the past. If you feel this much about it, you should make a complaint.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks
Of course you don't but a bit of manners wouldn't go amiss either. Rather than being downright obnoxious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Scored a cracking goal in pre season last night - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvG1vcyUP88?t=1m
James McClean's snub to England's flag was disgraceful - if he hates it so much, he should leave the Premier League
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...er-League.html
Elsewhere, an article written in defense of McClean has vanished from Eurosport.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvG1vcyUP88
Not sure if it took a big deflection or not, but some goal from McClean last night. Something I haven't seen enough from him in England, cutting in and trying his luck from around the box as it was always a strength of his at Derry.
Not unreasonable from the Torygraph. McClean has admirable principles, but he's a head the ball for doing this kind of thing. There are ways of dissenting without being offensive. I've been at formal events where there was a toast to the Queen - I'm Rossie bred but Manchester born so I don't have a problem with toasting her in her own country. At one I was beside a Scot, who liftedhis glass across the table so it passed over his water glass. Scots nationalists, he told me, from the time of Bonnie Prince Charlie toast the king across the water during the royal toast. Subtle.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks
McClean could have faced the flag, lowered and turned his head to one side and hummed Come Out Ye Black and Tans - and nobody would have been any the wiser. True to himself and point made, but with enough sublety for it to pass unremarked. To be honest, I'm losing a bit of patience with his unnecessarily provocative nationalism.
Even if was Lionel Messi and behaving like this people would be getting fed up of it.
He ain't no Lionel Messi and had better produce some football to ever get another contract in English Football.
He's been doing things like this for years and clubs keep giving him contracts, even though we're supposed to believe he's not very good at football. Whatever people think about his politics or whatever, his talent has got him where he is.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
The arguments against him are making me more steadfast in my support of what he did.
The disconnect in that article is such that equating gerrard turning is back on the Stars and Stripes is the same thing as what McClean did.
---
Perhaps he should have turned. But would we have still had the same outcry if he kept his head bowed? Like hell we would have!Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Edwards
The equating of England and Britain is a subtle but important thing mentioned here.
It was an act of defiance to an anthem which means so much more to some people than others. I even have a tough time bearing that dirge, imagine if I was from Derry?Quote:
It was an act of defiance that asks the question, if you do not like the British so much, because that is what your behaviour suggests, why have you spent the vast majority of your career living and working in England, the country at the heart of Britain’s 'colonial power'?
McClean was trying to make a political point and while I would defend everybody’s right to protest, as well as their freedom of expression, this was a disrespectful act that hints at something ugly in his views.
Barely the majority eh? It just so happens that as an Irish soccer player it's the next rung on the ladder for him. He is lucky enough to be good enough to play there. If he wasn't he'd probably have moved to Scotland now or be back in the LOI. Simple really.
The ugly part of his views are that that song represents something wholly unacceptable in his eyes and he finds it difficult to stand there representing that song as it happens.
If Luke edwards suppports everybody's right to freedom of expression then surely there is no need for this article criticising him?
Hardly designed and hardly unknown in any quarters what his views are.Quote:
McClean's behaviour was designed to show he believes the British should get out of Northern Ireland.
He is free to hold those views. As so often he is told in October/November every year, "people have fought for those right".Quote:
He is free to hold those views, but in refusing to acknowledge the England flag while playing for a British/English team, which is supported by British/English people, while he plays alongside British/English teammates, McClean has gone too far. It was an insult.
Isn't the Telegraph one of the more vocal British members of the "No-one has a right to be offended brigade". Take yer oil.
A country that has welcomed him? Isn't the Telgraph a Unionist rag? Surely he is no more welcomed than any citizen.Quote:
I do not believe you should insult the flag of any country that you visit, let alone one that has welcomed you and one where you have made your home.
Phew. I was worried there.Quote:
McClean does not believe he is British, which is fine.
Danny, it's okay. We all see it too.Quote:
He elected to play for the Republic of Ireland rather than the North, which under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement is his right. I fully support him in that decision.
Fair enough.Quote:
He has already made it clear where his allegiance lies and what his political views are. He refused to wear a poppy on his shirt because he felt it was a military symbol. Again, I supported him because I agree that, for all the positive connotations of the poppy, it can be perceived as a symbol commemorating those who have fought in armed conflicts for Britain, of which Northern Ireland is one.
GSTQ can have the same weight as the Poppy.Quote:
Yes, it commemorates those who have died on both sides of the conflict, but for McClean and many like him in Derry, it holds a different meaning. I was not one of those who argued he should have been forced to wear it. I respected his beliefs, and it was abhorrent that he was sent death threats because of it.
Maybe England could do with a new anthem so?Quote:
However, to insult a nation’s flag and anthem is to insult a nation. And before anyone claims this makes me some sort of rabid nationalist, I would say the same thing about any national flag. I hate it when national anthems are booed in sport.
Mon dieu. We all remember that SEALs raid on Whiston in the early 80s.Quote:
Imagine if Steven Gerrard refused to acknowledge the American flag while playing for LA Galaxy because he disapproved of American Imperialism and interference in global affairs?
Imagine any footballer ever, coming from a city which was subject to some brutal assaults by its "own" armed forces.Quote:
Imagine if any footballer playing abroad, from any country in the world, did what McClean did to the national flag of his host nation?
In case we forget, McClean lives and works in a country where the national flag is either the cross of St George or the Union flag and the national anthem is God Save the Queen. He is apparently more than happy to do so given he has played for three different English clubs - Sunderland, Wigan and now West Brom.
Bar some Balkan or African situation I couldn't think of anything. It was hardly a "Boban moment".
Because this is where he works. And he has every right to be in his "own" State. I mean that's what the Telegraph would normally say about someone from Stroke City who has obvious Nationalist leanings.Quote:
If he finds the sight of the flag so abhorrent, why is he here?
Can he not be friends with people ouotside of his "own-kind"? Surely the trick here is to understand "why" he finds the anthem and flag so ghastly? It wouldn't kill people to bone up on a wee bit of history.Quote:
If he hates the national anthem so much, if it stands for something he is so hostile to, why would he want to make his home in a country where his neighbours, friends and employers are loyal to that flag?
I doubt he had any issue with the George's Cross. GSTQ on the other hand.Quote:
I know plenty of people who are anti-Monarchy, but I do not know anyone who recoils at the sight of the England flag.
They sure do.Quote:
The British and English flag means different things to different people.
And it is not James McClean's.Quote:
To me they represent the NHS, a country that welcomes people of all religions, colours, faiths and creeds. It is a country that believes in democracy and freedom. It represents my country, despite all its faults, ills and blemishes.
How charitable.Quote:
It is the national flag of the country that has welcomed McClean and he has insulted it to make a crude political point.
Might it have been because he faced the Tricolour, ya know, his flag?Quote:
Interestingly, when the Republic of Ireland played England in an international friendly back in June, I don’t remember McClean refusing to face the flag while the English (and British) national anthem was played, which is the protocol for international matches at the Aviva Stadium.
The ability of English people doing the right thing fills me full of proud [sic].Quote:
Quite rightly, England fans were repeatedly warned not to sing the stupid, ugly, insulting and out-dated “no surrender to the IRA” song ahead of that game. But for me, McClean’s behaviour is just as bad as the idiots who sing that confrontational chant in the name of patriotism.
He might think otherwise. He might think it is disrespectful to force people to do things that make them uncomfortable and are out of sync with their beliefs.Quote:
McClean did not have to look up at the flag, he certainly did not have to sing the national anthem, just as the many other players from different nations in the WBA team did not, but he deliberately refused to turn and face it. He was deliberately disrespectful.
Who knows. Maybe we'll wait til he gets there with them.Quote:
Would he have done the same thing had Albion reached the FA Cup or Capital One Cup final, where the national anthem is played and the Union flag and English flags fly? Would he refuse to play in those games?
It might be tough for some people to forgive and forget when they come from a place that was directly affected by the Troubles.Quote:
McClean’s behaviour hints at someone who is not willing to move on, to forgive or forget.
Yeah. Everything is hunky dory in the North alright.Quote:
It points to someone who does not believe Northern Ireland’s troubles are over.
The Twelfth passed without incident and all... :rolleyes:
It might suggest that. But that is to take it that his Nationalist views are purely black and white. I would wager like everyone ever, that there's a fair amount of subtlety and grey within.Quote:
It suggests he holds anti-British/English views, yet he pays vast amount of taxes in England as a result of his handsome living as a Premier League footballer that go towards the up-keep of, among other things, the British Armed forces.
He pays vasts amount of tax as a resident of a country. He has no control where that goes.
It is.Quote:
McClean will argue the Union flag is a symbol of oppression where he comes from...,
Again, I would reckon GSTQ was where he was aiming his ire. I don't know for sure. But history suggests as much.Quote:
...but it was the England flag he refused to face in America.
Will he argue that?Quote:
He will argue he was raised to believe the British national anthem belongs to an enemy...
[1/2]
God save our James McClean
Long live our James McClean
God save McClean
Send us victorious
His tricks are glorious
Long to score goals for us
God save McClean
He's living in England at the minute anyway. And a modern "Northern Ireland"? Hmmmmmmm...Quote:
...but does this sort of language have any place in modern Northern Ireland any more?
Perhaps not. But being a role-model is not his job.Quote:
Is it the right sort of behaviour for a Premier League footballer to adopt?
What is the language?Quote:
This is the language of the Sectarian troubles.
Stormont, the bastion of good governance.Quote:
This is the language used before the Good Friday Agreement and power sharing in Northern Ireland.
I bet they wept into their pillows last night.Quote:
More importantly, McClean has insulted many of those who support West Bromwich Albion, as well as those who play for them. It was stupid.
Like Northern Ireland perhaps?Quote:
If McClean hates the national anthem so much, if he finds the flag so abhorrent, maybe he should go and play in a country where he does not have to listen to or see either.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...er-League.html
---
Flegory Campbell of course had a measured response...
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-31388031.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Flegory
---
This was the lead story on the Bellylaugh's website as well: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-31388767.html
There is no hope.
[2/2]
Stolen from Pure Derry?Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapAPony
Nope. Just saw it today on breakingnews:DQuote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
Who probably stole it from Pure Derry.
I thought it was a West Brom fan who made it up. Might be wrong though.
It was, yeah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
But given I saw it on PD first and I would never give Breaking News, Joe, Balls or the Journal any credit so I had to make sure.
James is a pea brain, insists at least one journalist.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-31390146.html
Oh for ****'s sake, an article about another article.
What do you think about the WBA fans reactions chaps?
http://boards.footymad.net/forum.php...9918336&page=1
This McClean thing has really driven me mad. Two thoughts:
a) He's an idiot. He shouldn't have done it. It's a facile 'protest' (if it could even be called that) and has pretty much no impact other than to bring his brain power once again into disrepute. If I was a West Brom fan, I'd be rightly furious.
b) Any variation of the argument that runs 'well if he hates Britain so much, why doesn't he just leave/why does he accept sterling wages?', as suggested by Ken Early et al, deserves to go in the bin. It's a complete nonsense.
This whole argument is a sad old infuriating state of affairs.
Context as ever, is important, and while I don't think McClean should've done it, the gesture is a curiously northern one (possibly north western one). People have mentioned Sammy Morrow already, who did the same before the FAI Cup final in 2008 (the same season McClean made his Derry debut).
Likewise some 'nationalist' players in the NI underage system (the system McClean emerged through) have done the same before internationals. Don't think these facts are coincidental.
McClean's reaction can also be seen in the light of the rise of Islamic extremism in UK, the parallel being they are both part of a large set of disaffected minorities - albeit only one now seen as a very real threat to security. My point isn't that McClean is not justified in his beliefs but it is very insensitive to be publicly disrespectful of the English anthem or flag at the same time as the UK government is, rightly in my opinion, fighting a tough battle against a far more serious strand of disaffection and its protagonists' failure to connect with their country of residence / upbringing.
I think that's more of a fault of the British Government rather than the disengaged migrants themselves, but that's another topic altogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Maybe James is really Mi6 and trying to throw said disaffected groups off....while spying on them from the pitch? Kind of like in the English Patient.
As Charleston is in a souther US State they should have played the confederate anthem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3UUS1kx5oE
Nice tune!
Thank God you responded to that before I saw it. You've saved me a suspension! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
It's very much a northern thing, but obviously rooted in the heightened or loaded significance (and contentious nature) of various symbols to the communities in the north. Symbols represent the very essence of the (past-)conflicting or clashing identities. Whether he's right or wrong, I would imagine James felt that to exhibit deference to 'GSTQ' would be tantamount to an approval of a sentiment with which he is not comfortable or would be interpreted as a display of subservience to the ideology of unionism/loyalism. In this context, his reaction wasn't all that surprising. It's only natural that an Irish nationalist/republican would be instinctively reluctant to appear subservient to unionist/loyalist symbolism; in a general way, he was culturally responding or reacting, as an Irish nationalist/republican, to the perception of (him/his community) being imperiously told in recent history, "this is your flag/anthem, and you better revere it", and saying, "no it's not, so I'm going to opt out", a bit like what Paddy Barnes did at the Commonwealth Games, except not as vocally. Maybe that's indicative of a cultural or communal insecurity, or maybe it's just national pride and self-regard/respect; either way, I think it should be respected. What sort of society are we living in when people are being ordered to pay deference to particular symbols, or being asked to leave (in the mainstream media) for their alleged transgression?Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
Many may not agree with James' interpretation of such a spectacle (that being the playing of a national anthem and the displaying of a national flag), but different symbols have very different meanings for different people and, in the north, many symbols were once literally matters of life and death. No need to go into a full-on history lesson on how the actions of the British army in Derry and elsewhere might have coloured many inhabitants' pretty raw view of the British flag - or the "Butcher's Apron" as it was referred to, somewhat poetically I suppose, in darker days - but when you grow up seeing tattered Union flags flying from lamp-posts next to UVF flags and the like, it's difficult to erase such vivid and intimidating imagery from your mind. (Personally, I'm not sure I agree that observing such a spectacle would necessarily have to be interpreted as an expression of explicit or complete political approval of everything that might be historically associated with a flag, but I'm not in James' boots and I can see where he's coming from nevertheless.)
Players from nationalist backgrounds (not just those from the north-west; see Chris Baird from Rasharkin, Antrim and Niall McGinn from Dungannon below) have done the exact same thing when they've played for NI (at senior level) but there's been little fuss made over it, and that's how it should be:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKXW5gzWUAAaqf4.png
Likewise for Sammy Morrow; as a Protestant from Limavady, he was under no duty whatsoever to turn around and face the tricolour in 2008. No doubt, doing so would have made him feel culturally uncomfortable too. He didn't start booing, insulting or gesturing in protest; he just opted out like James did. And fair enough, I say. By the way, TheBoss suggested that a few Derry players didn't turn around to face the tricolour that day but I'm pretty sure Morrow was the only one because he stood out like a sore thumb, unless my memory fails me. I don't recall there being that much outrage though.
I've seen the video from the WBA game and James clearly looked to be in an uncomfortable situation as he realised what was about to commence, so probably thought quickly and did what he has long seen players from nationalist backgrounds do; he disengaged and opted out of observance.
I think it's just another tiresome pseudo-controversy, to be honest, and there's a great piece on it here: http://surrealfootball.com/post/1245...pected-for-his
It was inter club not international, was stupid to play national anthems.
On the subject of National Anthems, it seems Scotland does not have one, but Wales does, and then interestingly England does not have a national anthem,
God Save the Q is the British national anthem.
So a bit strange that really, you would think there would be different anthems for GB, England Wales Scotland and NI, it's odd
to use GSTQ for both England and GB or UK or whatever.
None of them have official anthems because they're not states, so GSTQ is all their anthem. Scotland have Flower of Scotland and Wales Bread of Heaven, and NI seem to use Danny Boy in some situations.
See Niall McGinn's comment here on the playing of 'GSTQ' for context: http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligib...=1#post1619124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall McGinn
Similar often happens when Arab Israelis line out for Israel. See Beram Kayal (number 7) below bowing his head and refraining from singing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWg4KKl8_fs
Right-wing commentators in Israel have often criticised the Arab members of the team for their refusal to participate.
Adem Ljacić, an ethnic Bosniak Muslim, was also suspended by the Serbian association for having not sung the Serbian anthem before a game. Siniša Mihajlović had a policy that Serbian players should sing the anthem at the time and so Ljacić didn't play for Serbia again until Mihajlović was replaced.
Just completely out of interest, why does Baird have his knees bent? If it were just a random stance of his it wouldn't have piqued my interest, but you can see McGinn's knees are bent somewhat also but just not as pronounced as Baird's. Or is it just completely coincidental?Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
I think McClean would have been best served just bowing his head like Baird and McGinn, don't you think? Almost turning his back on the flag comes across to me as ignorance, as opposed to deference. Maybe ignorance is too harsh a word but it's a more pronounced position than having just the head bowed.
Again, I'm filled with admiration for McClean. The outrage expressed by some is steeped in xenophobia, as far as I'm concerned and is oblivious to the fact that McClean isn't intentionally disrespecting England or his employers but that he is refusing to embrace a particular strand of English/British society (probably not the right word, culture? history?) and some of the messages this anthem carries.
What about this for a loaded verse:
O Lord our God arise
Scatter her enemies
And make them fall
Confound their politics
Frustrate their knavish tricks
On Thee our hopes we fix
God save us all
Maybe squatting out of awkwardness - it looks like textbook displacement - in the hope a hole in the ground will eat them up and save them from what must be a pretty excrutiating few minutes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
To be fair, he didn't quite turn his back on the flag. He returned to facing the main stand at a 45 degree angle from the flag, in line with how both teams had originally been standing.Quote:
I think McClean would have been best served just bowing his head like Baird and McGinn, don't you think? Almost turning his back on the flag comes across to me as ignorance, as opposed to deference. Maybe ignorance is too harsh a word but it's a more pronounced position than having just the head bowed.
IMO, if Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley can work together in a joint power agreement and if McGuinness can shake the Queen's hand and Prince Charles can shake McGuinness hand, then James McClean can stand and pretend to look interested during GSTQ for 3 mins.
If he wants people to respect his politics and views he should show respect back. He didn't just insult the Crown and the British Empire, he insulted West Bromwich Albion Football Club. WBA are a English club, who have English fans, staff and players. His clubs name, Albion, is ancient Greek for Britain. It was two fingers in their direction. He was representing WBA, an English club in America, their club. He should have known that.
His club should sent him to one of those FA education course. It would do him no harm to visit Warrington and go to the Tim Parry Foundation Centre in the town. He would learn that it wasn't just Catholics and Republicans that lost loved ones. The Parry family lost their two sons during an IRA attack. Rather that being twisted and let hate consume them, they did the opposite. They set up a Peace Fund in the hope of uniting communities so their sons deaths weren't in vain and something good and positive came out of it.
McClean is in last chance saloon. His career at Sunderland nose dived with some terrible displays. He went to Wigan and hardly set the world alight. Now he's got a great chance at a good club, with a loyal fan base under a top class manager. He might just have blown it already?!
Sunderland, Wigan and West Brom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
It's hardly like Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal are tripping over themselves to sign him!