Printable View
I don't think so. The atmosphere was an outlier compared to every other full capacity home game, good performances and bad. This was unique. The atmosphere in the game against Lithuania was much better for example, despite us being 0-0 till extra time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
Ukraine had all those players yet Scotland came ahead of them. Or are we adding Scotland to the list of teams we can't compete against now? It's also worth noting that we didn't just come behind Scotland and Ukraine, we were in a battle with Armenia to see who comes bottom. How much was our squad worth compared with theirs?Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
And then poor Kenny had to play a match that had away supporters at it. :D Really laughable excuses. Kenny's stated aim was to win the group with Scotland and Ukraine. He failed miserably and that has left us in a really bad spot in terms of a 50/50 shot in even getting to a playoff.
WC 98, Euro 2000..Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Nah, I mean, we beat them 3-0 (and lost 2-1) - but would you agree that Andy Robertson is a better footballer than anyone we have?Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
That's the whole point of been a good international manager though is taking the players yiou have playing a style that suits those players(not your own philosophy as you don't have loads of time with the players like in club football) and creating a unit that can beat teams that have better players than you in one off games. That's what Kenny needs to show us in the next campaign.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
You missed the rest of my post:Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
How did Scotland come ahead of Ukraine? How much is our squad compared with Armenia's? We're back to Luxembourg had 1 player who played in the champions league type excuses. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
Second in the group, second in the group and lost the playoff on away goals. If Kenny was delivering those results there wouldn't be an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
This is basically the whole problem with Kenny as Ireland manager and why he won't succeed summed up in a single post.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
What's the point of a manager if he doesn't have the right to have his players play to his style? Ok, if it fails, so be it. But if he doesn't even have the right to play his way, then you could have anyone in the dugout and it wouldn't make any difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
Yes it would, because we didn't qualify. For far too many fans of this team, there's no such thing as progress, or transition. It's either you qualify or you get the sack. It doesn't work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
The only reason there's no such thing as progress with Ireland fans is because there has been no progress. We have consistently been out of contention in every group from an early stage. The excuse of throwing the young lads in was fine two years ago, it isn't now.
And the reality is that, if a manager tries to implement a style on a group of players that they are not able to play to a high standard, failure is inevitable. In club management a manager might be lucky enough to be given time to build the team he wants (not always). In international management the skill is to get the best from the players that are available to you. It's a skill that not all managers have, we know now that Kenny doesn't have it.
If he wants to build a team to suit his own playing style he should go back to club football management. If he feels he has done all he can in Ireland there will be clubs in the National League in England, or maybe even at the lower end of League 2, that may take a punt on him if they are willing to put his terrible record in senior international management to one side and focus on some of his better work at club level.
Progress is long term work. It's not defined by a qualifying campaign. We got to the Euros in 2012. Did we make any progress, short or long term as a result? Not really. We got to the next Euros. With qualification in our own hands 18 months later, we were getting battered at home by Denmark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Jack had his way of playing, you adapted or you stayed at home. If it didn't suit the Brady's and O'Learys in the team, it was their loss. The manager has to be given the chance to say this is his team, his players, his tactics, and his belief on how we play the game. Hoping to get a manager sacked after winning games at home, as has happened in the past year, is not progress and not a vision. It's an embarrassing campaign by people who are not prepared to give the manager an inch, let alone a chance to turn us from the also rans we are to a team worthy of a place at the top table of world football.
Do you think it's progress to go from losing to Luxembourg in 2020 to losing to Armenia in 2022?
To go from barely scraping past Lithuania in early 2021 to barely scraping past Malta in late 2022?
To go from being in relegation trouble in the Nations League into the last five minutes of the 2020 campaign (when a Bulgaria goal would have relegated us) to being in relegation trouble in the Nations League into the last five minutes of the 2022 campaign (when an Armenia goal before the late penalty would have relegated us)?
There's nothing embarrassing at all about the criticism Kenny is getting.
had all my eggs in the kenny basket up until recently. his gutless selections and subs against malta have soured me on the whole thing. didnt mind the poor results and have defended a few of them on here but malta showed me he is scared. we wont go anywhere fast under a new manager either but the cult like talk around 'progress" under kenny is wearing me down. the 3-5-2 / 3-4-1-2 has proven to to TURGID against poorer opposition but SK sticks with it. these are grown up professionals, they are capable enough to deal with a formation switch. kenny better not treat that latvia game like a qualifier.
His job is to look at what he has and make the best strategy he can ro win games. If he wants a philosophy go be a director of coaching and put the fundamental s in.place from under 6s. He didn't leave a legacy in the dundalk underage academy for all the talk of philosophyQuote:
Originally Posted by mypost
The ireland International managers job isn't about someone having as you say the " right" to do what he wants. You have though summed up the arrogance of Kenny which comes across so evidently when he speaks with the use of that phrase " right" . He has shown such a sense of entitlement senile before he got the job and since he has been in it. It's fitting that the whole sordid mess of him been preordained senior manager was one of the last major acts of John delany s reign ,Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
The so be it part of your post is he has fails and if he doesn't qualify for the euros then he will have failed again . So be it he will then have to go from his massively overpaid role. I would be amazed if there were options for him above league of Ireland or league 1 level if that happenedQuote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Certainly not the recent criticism, agree there, and I'm more or less in the same boat as Jd2793 sets out.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
However, the knives came out - and heavily so from some quarters - ridiculously early. It was "embarrassing" (not sure if that's the right word) that the first moment of failure to qualify for a fan jolly-up led to so many calls for his sacking. There appeared to be a fairly significant minority with an agenda who weren't willing to give him any room for failure or growth. It seemed really petty at the time.
If we're in the results business, as you like to tell us above, then barely scraping past teams is irrelevant. The result in the results business is what counts.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Last year, we went from a team that couldn't win a home game for years, into a side capable of thrashing the group winners 3-0 at home, and collecting our highest amount of points in the NL to date.
And as for relegation trouble, it's nothing to panic over. France and England were dumped down into our league for the next campaign. The former had a feeble defence of the trophy, the latter lost 4-0 at home and were booed off the pitch. Germany lost a game 6-0 some years back. What did they do? Sack the man in charge? No. Yet there we are, spitting blood because it took a while to beat Armenia at home. And Lithuania at home. And Malta away.
The last 20 years has told us that we're never going to get anywhere while we're fixated with individual games and qualifying campaigns. This team is a work in progress, that means results have to take a backseat while the work is going on.
The highest amount of points in the NL we've gotten to date? Bloody heck, you do spin some nonsense. Like, well done us on winning a game for the first time ever. Against the weakest side we've ever played in the competition. Who still beat us away from home.
Scraping past teams is absolutely relevant in judging whether this progress you talk of is actually being made. I thought it was at the start - in fits and coughs, sure, but you could see there was an attempt to change things for the better - but when we're 2½ years in and we're utterly toothless against Malta away, then you wonder what on earth it would take for you to acknowledge that progress wasn't being made.
France and England didn't sack their managers because they reached the final of recent major tournaments. Southgate and Deschamps had earned a bad campaign. Kenny, unfortunately, has only had bad campaigns.
In fairness, you'd have to be a bit senile to take the job in the first placeQuote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
I'll be lambasted for this, and Kenny blamed, but I am not as hung up on results as I was say 3 years ago. I have freed myself from the tyranny and pain of expecting to Ireland to win and am treating it more as entertainment than anything else. Must be long covid or something, but it's working so far.
In the last 20 years we qualified for a world Cup and 2 euros. What is this work in progress that you seem to think Kenny is doing going to bring us in the next 20 years?Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Kenny certainly does come across as arrogant. He's inarticulately arrogant on top of that. I haven't heard him take any responsibility for our very poor results and performances. It's either the players fault or any supporters who expect us to compete. He has placed his own self interests and self preservation ahead of developing our senior side. Some supporters finally copped onto that with the last set of friendly games but it was obvious to many a long time before that. He's driven us so far backwards that we mightn't even get a play off for the Euros. At this stage, I'm actually angry that he's still our manager. We deserve so much better.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
We had won 5 out of the previous 20 competitive games before Kenny took over, two of which were against Gibraltar, by the skin of our teeth. We were throwing caps at the likes of Ronan Curtis and hoping that Jack Byrne would come good at international level. It was a freakish series of events that ended up with us being competitive in that Euro 2020 group. We were awful, and I remember feeling similar to texidub above, just feeling like packing in any emotional attachment at all, sitting in the stands during that godawful Switzerland game.
We've won 4 and drawn 3 of the last 10. Okay, it's not great. But deciding between late-era MON, Mick and Kenny is like choosing between three different dressings for your turd sandwiches. It's evidently clear that we're not going to make significant, consistent progress results-wise until the likes of Hourihane, Hendrick, Browne, Stevens, McClean, Robinson, Keane and Hogan are phased out and replaced with more Collins/Ferguson types from the youth conveyor belt. We have a half-decent starting XI now with a bit of skill, technique, aggression, pace and vigour, and we're capable of playing a 21st century style of football, which is more than we could say at any stage between March 2017 and June 2021. But our squad is still threadbare, and we're still reliant on some terribly limited footballers, with no compelling alternatives as yet.
Kenny's not getting sacked just yet, but if he were to fall foul of some career-ending scandal, and we had to put John O'Shea or Jim Crawford in charge until Carsley (hopefully) came on board, I wouldn't be too bothered. The job's too big for Kenny, and he's too dithering, indecisive and tactically naive. But the mess we've been in since 2017 is 90% about player development.
Look at the drop off in results from 2016 to 2018, after time caught up with Keane, O'Shea, Doyle, McGeady, Hoolahan, Walters, Murphy and Ward, and we lost Coleman, Meyler, McCarthy, Arter and Brady to career-changing injuries. (Scoff at Ward all you like, but where is our EPL-starting left-back now?)
We're only just getting back to having a starting XI that can be competitive without resorting to low-block, flooding midfield, and playing kick-and-rush in the hope of a set-piece goal, against the likes of Georgia. We need a better manager than Kenny, but we're still one injury away from Jeff Hendrick or Conor Hourihane starting against France.
great post. i think hendrick gets too much abuse dont find much wrong with him still being involved. hourihane on the other hand should have seen the door with mick....
Great post Supreme, just one thing though. Lee Carsley has been held up as the potential long term savior by a lot of people. He'd probably be my favorite too, but he's never done anything in management to show that he's the guaranteed fix here, in fact he's never done anything in actual management at all really. He's been a behind the scenes man.
As I said I'd probably lean towards him as the replacement but I'd also like to see us cast a wide net to see what's available in world football.
Again we're back to running down our players. It's ridiculous. Yes, they're not the best squad we've ever had but we have a decent squad and we have had a decent squad for the past few years. It may not have been pretty but we did compete near the top of the group for Euro 2020. We have mostly premier league or championship level players. Is our squad much worse than Scotland's? Is it worse than Azerbaijan's or Armenia's or Luxembourg's or Bulgaria's? Enough with the excuses about players, managers are there to get the best out of what they have at their disposal. Clearly Kenny has come nowhere close.
Just continuing to say we've had a good squad for last few years over and over doesn't make it true. We are in the process of replacing an aging squad with players who werent very good, with basically an entire u21. That takes time but it also takes bravery to see it through... and that's where Kenny has lost me. He reverted to bringing on Hendrick in the Malta game instead of Smallbone. There were plenty of other bad decisions he's made but that was the nail in coffin for me
Trying to paint our squad as no hopers again and again doesn't make it true. It wasn't an aging squad, late 20's is a players prime these days. They were being replaced by the youngsters because these are some of the best batch of players coming through in a long time. It has been the best of both worlds. An experienced squad mixed with exciting youngsters. And despite all the Kennyites trying to pretend it never happened, we did deserve to beat Denmark in the last qualifying game and qualify for the Euros. Not too bad for players who are not very good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Instead of having our manager and supporters denigrate these players, we should be talking them up. It's not their fault they've had a hopeless manager in charge. Look at teams like Morocco, Japan, Saudi Arabia, South Korea, Australia at the World Cup. They don't have amazing squads but they played to their strengths and punched above their weight. We have a manager having us punch way below our weight. And the problem is that supporters like you have only realised that 2 years after serious damage has been done to our development and hopes of qualifying for major tournaments.
It's a fact that we've had a bunch of players in the last 10 years that were mainly playing in weaker teams or leagues than we had previously. We had very few Premiership players, but we are slowly building back to that. A lot of this time coincided with having managers who also said that the players we had were not capable of getting the ball down and playing football. The good will for Kenny came from him saying that was bull and our players could play.
Unfortunately Kenny doesn't seem to be able to implement what he says he wants to, and the players that have come from the 21s haven't kicked on as quickly as we would like. I think the players we have are improving and all of a sudden we have a boy wonder that we are praying becomes a Robbie or Duffer level player.
But it's simply not factual to say that the squad of last 5 or 6 years was anything other than the weakest we've had in a very long time.
It's easy to look back now and criticise previous managers but we had some outstanding performances and results under Trap and O Neill. Displays Kenny can only dream about. Their methods became outdated or they lost the dressing room but we had some great times under both those managers. It's another tactic by Kennyites to try to rewrite the history of previous regimes in order to promote the saviour. The truth is that Kenny has spoken a load of waffle about playing football in a certain way and believing our players could play that way. But when it came down to it, he threw the players under a bus to try to save himself. Did anyone think these players should be competing with Serbia and Portugal was his defence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
He also was responsible for some absolutely dour, dreadful performances. We could barely score a goal for a year. He had to enlist coaches to set up the team for him and even recently, has gone back begging Barry to return to try to save his skin again. But back to our squad strength.
This is not our best squad ever, no where near it but it's nowhere near as bad as Kennyites like to make it out to be. McCarthy nearly qualified us with a midfield of Hendrick, Whelan and Hourihane. 3 of our most lambasted players. But all 3 have been premier league players. As have Randolph, Doherty, Coleman, Duffy, O Shea, Egan, Collins, Stevens, McClean, McCarthy, Long, Idah, Obefami, McGoldrick, Connolly and so on. Kenny has had access to all these players bar Whelan. We are missing a Keane or a Duff but it's no excuse for the results that have been served up.
Our squad is stronger than some of the countries I listed earlier who played well at the World Cup and stronger than many of the teams we've played against. Remember we've only played against 2 top tier sides in Kenny's 30 games. He has a win record of 27%. Just to put that in perspective, Staunton had a win percentage of 35. I'm not saying our squad should be getting to the latter stages of tournaments, I'm saying they should be competing closely for qualification for major tournaments. This is not out of the question no matter what Kenny would like us to believe and we certainly shouldn't be accepting the position he's put us in. We have to either come ahead of France or Holland or hope other teams do us a favour in order to even get a backdoor play off.
Can you clarify that?Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
You've hit two interesting points there, the second certainly an interesting psychological insight, one about Denmark which has largely been forgotten or maybe even brushed under the carpet. THe same manager(who didnt seem to like oneill) who presided over the 5-1 win said Ireland were a much better side and should qualify still.Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
Its a strange one, there was never an acceptance from certain sections of the support when foreign managers highlighted player and playing inefficiencies. Perhaps it didn't fit the agenda, but when "one of their own" came in it was all about the players and the acceptance of those inefficiencies. It's either agenda based or very primitive parochial type mindset; I can insult my family but you can't.
Stu do you really bother with mypost? He's low on the scale. It's like engaging with someone needing some professional help and you're not that qualified professional.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
fans jolly up aka seeing something others didnt or couldnt see. And its still there, now everyone is coming around to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
You need to find a better argument than "fans jolly up" for all those people who saw Kennys inability and rigidness from the very start. If you can't accept it then move on and get over it. You'll have the same problem in the future then too anyway.
On a separate note its funny how one little moment for some can sway them from one way to the other. How can all the other things in your mind be accepted but then one thing is the last straw. I'd be very worried for those people in daily life. It must be a tough struggle. It'd remind you of the lads up North.
Good point well made!Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Pot and Kettle come to mindQuote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
It does surprise me that the substitution to bring on Hendrick against Malta was the turning point for so many people. I mean, yes, it was a desperately poor substitution in the circumstances, but in the context of all the terrible decisions Kenny has made over the last few years it seems an odd one to turn on.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Personally, in terms of his recent errors, I would have said subbing on Hourihane v Armenia would have been the one that might have finally tipped people over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
But the "petty" minority have been proven right.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Anthony Barry changing the formation, the style of play, set pieces and so on. It still wasn't great but was a step up on what Kenny had produced prior to that appointment.Quote:
Originally Posted by lofty9
I can only explain it from my point of view... it wasn't that I went from being 100% behind him and flipping 180 degrees to Kenny out instantly. It was more of a case of a slow decrease of faith in him, but continuing to hope he would get it right. That one moment was just a moment of clarity that he just wouldn't ever get it right though... I'd still love to be wrong and he goes on to have a great Euros campaign.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
It wasn't as clear cut as 1 moment flipping my thinking as some other poster has suggested, but even if it was, there is nothing wrong with changing your opinion with new information in daily life. Some might suggest that's a healthy thing to do.