Darron Gibson

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Originally Posted by ifk101

:shock:

Campbell went for £3.5 million with add-ons potentially pushing the total transfer fee up to £6 million (according to wikipedia :bigsmile:). As Boovidge says strikers have a high value in the transfer market so what Campbell went for does not necessarily mean that Gibson could fetch a similar price tag. If Cloud Cuckoo Land has a league, maybe Gibson could command a £7/8 million fee.

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Fair enough, I went with the higher value for Campbell but he could still command most of it.

Just look at the prices United have sold players for recently: http://www.transferleague.co.uk/prem...transfers.html

Tosic: played about 5 games, made no impression, 7 million
Richardson: irregular for a couple of years, 5.5 million
Foster: cup games (same as Gibson) and an unimpressive run in the first team: 5.5 million

Gibson hasn't set the world on fire but he's done more than any of those players. Even accounting for English player tax, 7 million is hardly an extortionate price to pay for a player with 10+ left in the tank.

edit: on an unrelated note, just take a look at Ferguson's buys and sells before the 05/06 season - shifted a load of deadwood and brought in Van der Sar, Park, Vidic, Evra and Foster for a net spend of 1 million.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

you still dont have much money.

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It's the lack of sense I would be more concerned about.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

There undoubtedly was an implicit suggestion in what you said. You insinuated that the description I offered on here regarding Gibson in his school-days was in some way synonymous with - whatever exact meaning you wish to invoke - the character of a "scumbag", as someone else had described him on OWC with what I felt were sectarian connotations beyond a mere personal level and relating to more than just his general character. You can't deny that. This is exactly what you said:

"Anyhow, if Gibson is not a "scumbag", do you recognise this description of him from a certain other website the other day?..."

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I have never asserted or (intentionally) used the term "scumbag" for DG.
If it pleases you, I will rephrase to make it crystal clear what I was attempting to say, as follows:
"Anyhow, although Gibson is not a 'scumbag', do you recognise this description of him from a certain other website the other day?"

I have also amended the post on OWC to a verbatim reproduction of your original observation on DG from here, without further comment by me.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

At the least, what you were trying to do was put words in my mouth. Naturally, I felt compelled to refute the original nasty slur and its association by yourself to what I had said in post #1237.

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I was NOT putting/attempting to put words in your mouth. I will accept that you felt the "scumbag" remark could be interpreted as being ascribed to you; then again, it could just as easily be interpreted otherwise.
I suspect you are being sensitive about this because having defended DG on a point of principle etc, it doesn't look so good for your case if he appears to be a bit of an arsehole* in practice.

* - I was actually going to use the phrase "feet of clay", but from the way he pings in the odd long shot, in between ambling around the centre circle in slow motion, I suspect "feet of lead" might be more apt...

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Technically, I was suspended for something daft and arbitrary like eight years, but it appears posting histories are not deleted in any case. Predator's posts similarly remain in spite of his recent outright banning, although, I believe a few of his last ones were deleted for being "speculative" in nature, which appears to be against forum rules as of a week and a half ago. Ultimately, the mods have the discretion to keep what they wish and censor what they wish at whim.

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I have no idea about your ban/suspension, or Predator's.
However, I will make the following contextual observation
Now that this Eligibility dispute is finally settled, the eventual outcome has had an incendiary effect in NI football, with eg Coaches finding that under-age teams are being strained along IFA/FAI lines (or Unionist/Nationalist, even Prod/Taig, if you prefer). I personally find this absolutely deplorable, and an entirely predictable consequence of the FAI pushing a policy which even Brian Kerr now describes as "unfair, seedy and predatory".
In the OWC context, this has led to a situation whereby everytime a 7 year old score a hat-trick in a Primary school kickaround, there is specualtion as to whether he is fully committed to the IFA, or might lean towards the FAI etc.
Worse, it has provoked the more extreme posters on both sides of the debate (NOT you or "Predator" btw) to post some pretty incendiary remarks, leading to edits/deletions/warnings by the Mods. (I myself fell foul of this unwittingly)
If nothing else, some of the players referred to may have relatives etc who will read it, and the Press has been long-known to browse the site for juicy bits of dirt to dish. As a result, a policy has had to be implemented banning any speculation of the "Is he a Prod or RC" variety.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

The two are not incompatible and need not contradict one another. Whether he played with and fell out with the IFA or not, there is no strict contradiction in possessing an ultimate wish to play for Ireland one day, presumably at senior level. Although he did make the switch at the age of 16 or so. Perhaps the falling out with the IFA over the trial at United simply hastened his "defection to the Dark Side"

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The two "need not" be contradictory; however, that does not preclude the possibility that they may be contradictory.
Anyhow, whether you accept it or not, you know fine well the point I was trying to make i.e. at one point DG asserted that his switch was personal (an argument with a coach), at another he said it was a matter of principle ("always wanted to play for ROI").
If it really was the latter, why did he ever agree to play for NI in the first place? After all, there had been several other Derry youngsters who'd played for the ROI before him and seeing as he was on MU's books, he would certainly have been of interest to them.
Unless, of course, he was content to use the IFA to further his career, in tandem with MU etc, until circumstances forced him to reveal his true intentions and he left us in the lurch (but only after having occupied a place in our team that other kids would die for).
Either way, it stinks (imo) both in what it says about the individual concerned, but also the way it politicises football in NI, at a time when many good people, of all backgrounds, are working so damned hard to keep politics out of the game.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

That's to miss the point of what I found objectionable about the use of the word "scumbag" within the context in which it was originally used on OWC to refer to Gibson. I am of the opinion that it was loaded with politicised contempt in the context of the debate. Basically, as I said in the 2007 post from OWC you quoted:

"I felt there was something more to it than simple annoyance towards the guy for not choosing to represent Northern Ireland"

To be blunt, I feel he was being called a "scumbag" for reasons beyond merely having no intention to play for Northern Ireland, but also because he:

i) Happened to be from a Catholic/nationalist background.
ii) Switched to "the Baggars", of all possible places!

I don't think a northern-born Protestant with a Welsh parent, for example, would be dubbed a "scumbag" if they expressed an intention to represent Wales and the slur then subsequently accepted as appropriate. In the context there was a lot of hatred, bitterness and contempt behind the word "scumbag" that I just don't feel a willingness alone on some player's part to play for another team over Northern Ireland could warrant, but maybe that's just me... See the thread on Shane Lowry on this forum, for example, and you'll see a more appropriate reaction to a very similar decision made by a player whereby we lost someone who had represented us at under-age level to Australia. Rather than dub him a "scumbag", however, his wish to play for Australia was accepted as perfectly understandable given his dual nationality and he was broadly wished the best of luck.

If, however, in this instance here and now, "scumbag" was to be treated as synonymous with "contrary hoor" and free of any sectarian baggage - although, I must add, it wouldn't be my word of choice - maybe I would have less of a problem with it. After all, and for what it's worth, my own feeling is that Gibson probably is a bit of a stubborn one. But as I said, it's all about nuance and context. Consider the difference between an African-American referring to another African-America as "n*gger" and a Caucasian referring to an African-American as such. The former is considered neutral when used in a familiar sense; the latter is considered a social taboo and deeply offensive. Ultimately, I feel OWC is a forum in denial and one of complete hypocrisy.

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Spare us the amateur sociology lesson.

A member amongst several thousand of a football website used an offensive term in a thread containing hundreds of posts over the course of 100 pages+

OK, the Mods might have cracked down on it etc, but you only need eg go onto any Spurs website, type in "Sol Campbell" (or even a mere "Judas") and see what you get - I guarantee that "scumbag" is positively mild by comparison with the rest of what's there.

Therefore I suggest you stop obsessing with the symptoms and start addressing the disease, which is that with football in NI always having wrestled with problems deriving from general society, at a time when both society and NI football were making encouraging progress to treat the disease, the action of the FAI in insisting on implementing their fortuitously-acquired right to pick NI-born players has only served to pour poison back into the wound.

Shame on them and all who would defend them.

P.S. As I type this, the 1 o'clock headlines are concentrating on that ****headed "Pastor" out in the US who wants to burn Korans. Under US Law, his Constitutional Right to Freedom of Speech and Conscience permits him to do so, but does anyone other than a complete bigot/moron feel he should enforce that right?

P.P.S. Before you get off on one, that last P.S. (above) is NOT to be read as calling you "a complete bigot/moron"...

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Originally Posted by geysir

It's the lack of sense I would be more concerned about.

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Geysir, thats exactly what I was referring to. tut tut.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

I have never asserted or (intentionally) used the term "scumbag" for DG.
If it pleases you, I will rephrase to make it crystal clear what I was attempting to say, as follows:
"Anyhow, although Gibson is not a 'scumbag', do you recognise this description of him from a certain other website the other day?"

I have also amended the post on OWC to a verbatim reproduction of your original observation on DG from here, without further comment by me.

I was NOT putting/attempting to put words in your mouth. I will accept that you felt the "scumbag" remark could be interpreted as being ascribed to you; then again, it could just as easily be interpreted otherwise.
I suspect you are being sensitive about this because having defended DG on a point of principle etc, it doesn't look so good for your case if he appears to be a bit of an arsehole* in practice.

* - I was actually going to use the phrase "feet of clay", but from the way he pings in the odd long shot, in between ambling around the centre circle in slow motion, I suspect "feet of lead" might be more apt...

I have no idea about your ban/suspension, or Predator's.
However, I will make the following contextual observation
Now that this Eligibility dispute is finally settled, the eventual outcome has had an incendiary effect in NI football, with eg Coaches finding that under-age teams are being strained along IFA/FAI lines (or Unionist/Nationalist, even Prod/Taig, if you prefer). I personally find this absolutely deplorable, and an entirely predictable consequence of the FAI pushing a policy which even Brian Kerr now describes as "unfair, seedy and predatory".
In the OWC context, this has led to a situation whereby everytime a 7 year old score a hat-trick in a Primary school kickaround, there is specualtion as to whether he is fully committed to the IFA, or might lean towards the FAI etc.
Worse, it has provoked the more extreme posters on both sides of the debate (NOT you or "Predator" btw) to post some pretty incendiary remarks, leading to edits/deletions/warnings by the Mods. (I myself fell foul of this unwittingly)
If nothing else, some of the players referred to may have relatives etc who will read it, and the Press has been long-known to browse the site for juicy bits of dirt to dish. As a result, a policy has had to be implemented banning any speculation of the "Is he a Prod or RC" variety.

The two "need not" be contradictory; however, that does not preclude the possibility that they may be contradictory.
Anyhow, whether you accept it or not, you know fine well the point I was trying to make i.e. at one point DG asserted that his switch was personal (an argument with a coach), at another he said it was a matter of principle ("always wanted to play for ROI").
If it really was the latter, why did he ever agree to play for NI in the first place? After all, there had been several other Derry youngsters who'd played for the ROI before him and seeing as he was on MU's books, he would certainly have been of interest to them.
Unless, of course, he was content to use the IFA to further his career, in tandem with MU etc, until circumstances forced him to reveal his true intentions and he left us in the lurch (but only after having occupied a place in our team that other kids would die for).
Either way, it stinks (imo) both in what it says about the individual concerned, but also the way it politicises football in NI, at a time when many good people, of all backgrounds, are working so damned hard to keep politics out of the game.

Spare us the amateur sociology lesson.

A member amongst several thousand of a football website used an offensive term in a thread containing hundreds of posts over the course of 100 pages+

OK, the Mods might have cracked down on it etc, but you only need eg go onto any Spurs website, type in "Sol Campbell" (or even a mere "Judas") and see what you get - I guarantee that "scumbag" is positively mild by comparison with the rest of what's there.

Therefore I suggest you stop obsessing with the symptoms and start addressing the disease, which is that with football in NI always having wrestled with problems deriving from general society, at a time when both society and NI football were making encouraging progress to treat the disease, the action of the FAI in insisting on implementing their fortuitously-acquired right to pick NI-born players has only served to pour poison back into the wound.

Shame on them and all who would defend them.

P.S. As I type this, the 1 o'clock headlines are concentrating on that ****headed "Pastor" out in the US who wants to burn Korans. Under US Law, his Constitutional Right to Freedom of Speech and Conscience permits him to do so, but does anyone other than a complete bigot/moron feel he should enforce that right?

P.P.S. Before you get off on one, that last P.S. (above) is NOT to be read as calling you "a complete bigot/moron"...

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At the end of this all I could glean, was, its all the FAI's fault. Why can football supporters, of all persuasions, never look inwards rather than outwards? Or is it just society as a whole? "my kid would never do that, it must have been his/hers/their kid"

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Geysir, thats exactly what I was referring to. tut tut.

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It was so, then obviously my sense levels must hover around my finance levels, at times.

But at least by now, you should be well used to being misunderstood :)

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

They have site "members" and site "supporters", who can donate an annual fee of £5 for special treatment. It also goes towards the up-keep of the site. "Members" are your normal, every-day users, whilst those classified as "supporters" are given exclusive access to certain areas of the forum that are closed off to "members" and the public. Presumably that's where all the really juicy stuff comes out! Naturally, "supporters" probably get an easier ride, having proven their loyalty and being part of the clique and all, whilst the threshold of tolerance for anything that might stir a bit of controversy will be lower if it's coming from a common "member".

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I can understand your not being well-disposed to that site, but I feel that that misrepresents the actual situation.

As I understand it, with OWC having reached 5-6,000 members, up to half of whom were active to one degree or another, the site started crashing at busy times, especially around matches.

Therefore it was necessary to purchase extra bandwith, so a one-off charge of £5 was introduced for regular posters to pay for this.

However, it was felt unfair to charge eg long-term Members whose activity was primarily to browse, rather than post. Therefore as a "Rule of Thumb", any Member who reaches 100 posts soon after joining will generally receive "hints" to cough up a fiver from those other who already have.

Subsequently, as demand for Bandwidth continued to grow, the Supporter's Charge became Annual. However, in compensation certain Sections were reserved for Supporters-only.

Rather amusingly, those who decline to pay their fiver and become Supporters (open to all, btw) frequently infer an almost "masonic" motive behind this(!). However, as a long-standing Supporter myself, the only practical privilege or benefit which follows from that elevated status is access to the "Away Travel" Section, whereby Supporters may post any good travel bargains they spot, or arrange to travel to away games together, without Members/non-Members getting the chance to rush in and fill flights and hotels etc.

That's it, really. Beyond that, all I would say is that don't believe the other rumour that Marty (site owner) is a direct descendent of Jesus Chris through the ancient Merovingian line and that he keeps the Holy Grail in a locker at Great Victoria Station, either. He's a Manchester City fan ffs...

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Originally Posted by ifk101

£4-5 million? :bigsmile: £1 million would be a fair price tag.

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I deliberately erred on the high side, for fear of being accused of having another dig at the guy.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

At the end of this all I could glean, was, its all the FAI's fault. Why can football supporters, of all persuasions, never look inwards rather than outwards? Or is it just society as a whole? "my kid would never do that, it must have been his/hers/their kid"

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You could glean it, but only if you insist on doing so.

Let me make my position crystal clear. Over the decades, there have been many contributors to the strained relationships within football in NI, not least the local establishment (IFA, IL etc) itself. However, by not intervening, the FAI could not be said to have been one of those contributors.

In any case, somehow or other the game never quite "burst into flames", even at the very darkest period of The Troubles.

Rather, as tensions within NI generally have reduced, so have they within NI football, such that we have been making encouraging progress towards bringing people together in sport.

Then, just as that progress was being demonstrated (eg Football For All), but before the old "bonfire" could be dismantled completely, along come the FAI and throw a match into the middle of it, resulting in the present combustion.

I totally abhor the effect that this is having on the sport I love. Worse still, I deeply resent being characterised as being the bigot in all this (not by you, btw), for expressing my opposition to the consequential situation, whereby the ROI may become the (de facto) "Nationalist" football team in Ireland, and the NI team will be pushed ever closer towards being the (de facto) "Unionist" football team in Ireland.

For if that happens, it will make it less likely that we will witness eg the total unadulterated joy from last Friday evening in Maribor, when Stephen Craigan, Chris Baird and Warren Feeney rushed over as one after the final whistle, to salute the Green and White Army for being their 12th man.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

For if that happens, it will make it less likely that we will witness eg the total unadulterated joy from last Friday evening in Maribor, when Stephen Craigan, Chris Baird and Warren Feeney rushed over as one after the final whistle, to salute the Green and White Army for being their 12th man.

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Why single out those three players? :confused:

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Fair enough, I went with the higher value for Campbell but he could still command most of it.

Just look at the prices United have sold players for recently: http://www.transferleague.co.uk/prem...transfers.html

Tosic: played about 5 games, made no impression, 7 million
Richardson: irregular for a couple of years, 5.5 million
Foster: cup games (same as Gibson) and an unimpressive run in the first team: 5.5 million

Gibson hasn't set the world on fire but he's done more than any of those players. Even accounting for English player tax, 7 million is hardly an extortionate price to pay for a player with 10+ left in the tank.

edit: on an unrelated note, just take a look at Ferguson's buys and sells before the 05/06 season - shifted a load of deadwood and brought in Van der Sar, Park, Vidic, Evra and Foster for a net spend of 1 million.

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i would expect Gibson to fetch 2-3m sterling. In much the same way as the other promising Man U youths that were shipped out to the likes of West Brom before fading into mediocrity.

on the bolded part - undoubtedly a great set of summer signings from Fergie but when you look at some of the absolute crap that he has bought in the meantime for outrageous fee's (Tosic and Bebe spring to mind) you get to wondering if he really is all that astute in the transfer market.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

on the bolded part - undoubtedly a great set of summer signings from Fergie but when you look at some of the absolute crap that he has bought in the meantime for outrageous fee's (Tosic and Bebe spring to mind) you get to wondering if he really is all that astute in the transfer market.

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Massimo Taibi springs to my mind. Wikipedia tells me that Ferguson paid £4.4 million for this chap - that's £1.1 million for each game the lad played.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

i would expect Gibson to fetch 2-3m sterling. In much the same way as the other promising Man U youths that were shipped out to the likes of West Brom before fading into mediocrity.

on the bolded part - undoubtedly a great set of summer signings from Fergie but when you look at some of the absolute crap that he has bought in the meantime for outrageous fee's (Tosic and Bebe spring to mind) you get to wondering if he really is all that astute in the transfer market.

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He made a 2 million profit on Tosic according to that site. Probably all wiped out by not completing the Ljajic transfer though.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Why single out those three players? :confused:

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Those three were in a mini-group who were going nearly as mental as the fans at the final whistle. Both Craigan and Feeney are known for being Rangers fans, so we may assume which background they're from; ditto Chris Baird, since he is a former GAA player from Rasharkin.
All three are equally committed when playing for NI, but only one received a phone call from Brian Kerr asking him to play for ROI.

Seeing as how much this Eligibility row has inflamed tensions in NI football, and considering the atmosphere in flashpoints like Rasharkin generally, it would take any future Chris Baird to have balls of steel to turn out for NI in preference to ROI, even if he wanted to. (I certainly wouldn't blame him for choosing the ROI).

As someone pointed out the other day, when Nationalist politicians champion the right of NI-born players to represent the ROI, they invariably point towards the Good Friday Agreement etc.

Yet the whole point of the GFA was that it should help find a way for the two communities in NI to live together.

Meanwhile, the "seedy, unfair and predatory" policy of the FAI [(c) Brian Kerr] is making it easier for them to live apart - and in the field of "sport" at that.

Then again, who is in charge of the FAI these days? The John Delaney who posters on this site roundly praise for nobly sticking up for Irish football when it comes to Eligibility etc?

Or is it the John Delaney who everywhere else is roundly abused on this site for shafting Irish football in pursuit of his own self-interest?

Whichever it is, I hope the greasy b a s t a r d bankrupts you...

P.S. Before anyone jumps in at that last comment and labels me/it "bitter" etc, yep, it sure is.

Brian Kerr wouldn't have an axe to grind against the FAI at all.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Those three were in a mini-group who were going nearly as mental as the fans at the final whistle. Both Craigan and Feeney are known for being Rangers fans, so we may assume which background they're from; ditto Chris Baird, since he is a former GAA player from Rasharkin.
All three are equally committed when playing for NI, but only one received a phone call from Brian Kerr asking him to play for ROI.

Seeing as how much this Eligibility row has inflamed tensions in NI football, and considering the atmosphere in flashpoints like Rasharkin generally, it would take any future Chris Baird to have balls of steel to turn out for NI in preference to ROI, even if he wanted to. (I certainly wouldn't blame him for choosing the ROI).

As someone pointed out the other day, when Nationalist politicians champion the right of NI-born players to represent the ROI, they invariably point towards the Good Friday Agreement etc.

Yet the whole point of the GFA was that it should help find a way for the two communities in NI to live together.

Meanwhile, the "seedy, unfair and predatory" policy of the FAI [(c) Brian Kerr] is making it easier for them to live apart - and in the field of "sport" at that.

Then again, who is in charge of the FAI these days? The John Delaney who posters on this site roundly praise for nobly sticking up for Irish football when it comes to Eligibility etc?

Or is it the John Delaney who everywhere else is roundly abused on this site for shafting Irish football in pursuit of his own self-interest?

Whichever it is, I hope the greasy b a s t a r d bankrupts you...

P.S. Before anyone jumps in at that last comment and labels me/it "bitter" etc, yep, it sure is.

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EG as always I think you're missing the bigger picture. Yes you could state that the recent controversy over the elligibility issues is widening the gulf between the two main political/religious groups on this island Nationalist/Unionist, Protestant/Catholic. However I like to see it as it really is a stepping stone for when we inevitably will all come together to play in the one Ireland team when even the most diehard unionist footballers realise the advantages of representing a strong, dare I say it 'united' Ireland team as opposed to the disinitegrating, obsolete, fatally weakened provincial team that was Northern Ireland. Let's hold hands EG and step into this brave new world together. There's no need to be afraid anymore.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Seeing as how much this Eligibility row has inflamed tensions in NI football.

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lol :) All i see is some fans who support the north getting flustered about the fact that Irish citizens have a choice when deciding their international side.

Many football fans and players here have little interest in the Windsor Park team.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

P.S. As I type this, the 1 o'clock headlines are concentrating on that ****headed "Pastor" out in the US who wants to burn Korans. Under US Law, his Constitutional Right to Freedom of Speech and Conscience permits him to do so, but does anyone other than a complete bigot/moron feel he should enforce that right?

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I think one of your compatriots got his pastorship from that church!

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Originally Posted by youngirish

EG as always I think you're missing the bigger picture. Yes you could state that the recent controversy over the elligibility issues is widening the gulf between the two main political/religious groups on this island Nationalist/Unionist, Protestant/Catholic. However I like to see it as it really is a stepping stone for when we inevitably will all come together to play in the one Ireland team when even the most diehard unionist footballers realise the advantages of representing a strong, dare I say it 'united' Ireland team as opposed to the disinitegrating, obsolete, fatally weakened provincial team that was Northern Ireland. Let's hold hands EG and step into this brave new world together. There's no need to be afraid anymore.

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Hold on there a sec 'til I get hysterical! But I thought we were the ones with the insatiable appetite for football apartheid in Ireland?!... :soldier:

No doubt, when asked to explain their reluctance in supporting any united island team - and maybe EG can clarify or enlighten me otherwise if I'm mistaken - NI fans will revert to arguments about how supporting such an entity would offer something not at all representative of their identity; national, cultural or otherwise. Essentially, they say it would mean nothing to them. Of course, when it comes to nationalists seeking to play for Ireland, that's when NI fans care a lot less for the principle of protecting national identities and any coincident or associated rights. In fact, it's, in rather patronising and insulting fashion, openly disputed as to whether nationalists even have a valid or legitimate Irish identity. I suppose it's dismissed as what you might call a notional identity. Who, then, I must ask, is it that really wants football apartheid in Ireland? Slight hypocrisy there, me thinks...

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Originally Posted by geysir

Danny, you are demonstrating an unhealthy obsession with the OWC forum, you may need some time off to develop a few perspectives.

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Never fear; Lent is only six months away. :p

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Originally Posted by Predator

After having my 'warning level' increased several times by that 'fhtb' character, for stating my opinion that I didn't think Shane Ferguson would change association despite technically being able to do so under FIFA's rules, I contacted their site administrator, 'Marty' and I explained that I felt it was a bit unreasonable. 'fhtb' (I presume) had deleted my comments and claimed that 'speculation' was the reason my 'warning level' was raised. Speculation? On a football forum? Get outta town!

Anyway, I received no message back from 'Marty', but was simply refused access to the forum and received an email explaining to me that I could reclaim exactly £3.08 from the OWC admin.

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