Next Senior Men's Team Manager - Runners and Riders

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Does that reflect on Page or on the passing of a golden generation that a small country can't readily replace?

The NL campaign - that showed Wales aren't at the level of Holland, Belgium and Poland. We knew that anyway. They were competitive throughout (five one-goal defeats, three of which were late winners), though I guess you could argue Kenny almost matched that against Serbia, Holland and France.

A very poor Euro qualification campaign - with four points off Croatia, semifinalists at the World Cup 12 months earlier? Harsh. I see an erratic campaign from a middling side with a middling manager.

Both playoff games were at home, sure, but we'd bite your hand off for 4-1 v Finland and 0-0 v Poland.

I don't think he's an exceptional manager, but I think he's about our level.

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Nah, you’re revising and without any real conviction. The evidence has already been presented and judgement delivered. Wales have been dismal since qual for Qatar, Page has been sacked and that’s the consensus opinion.

I trust that you mean he might be good enough for a team at our level and improve upon that
He was back room staff, took over a functioning set up, it gradually got worse until it fell apart spectacularly with no coming back. We don’t know if he’s good enough, he needs to do some other job, go into coach rehab, take stock of matters.

If we are going local (B&I), Carsley ticks enough boxes for me, other than that I haven’t got a clue who’s available, competent and affordable.

Considering the sky high cost of living, nordic coaches are remarkably affordable,
And most everybody would say Denmark is the most interesting of the 6
Jon Dahl Tomasson was available, legend as player, an experienced club/intl coach but he was picked up by Sweden NT.
Iceland got Age Hareide, still relevant and the real deal.

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

Yes that's true as well. The ultimate point here being that, if Sagnol is hired, it's highly unlikely to create the sh!tstorm a few posters seem to think it could. He'd be asked, would apologise, clarify or say he was misquoted or whatever and everyone would just move on.

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There would be a sh*tstorm - in 2017 Sagnol was lined up to take over as manager of Ghana - shortly before he was due to be announced the media began questioning the appointment because of his racist comments. Sagnol was given an opportunity at a press conference to address the comments he made, apologise for them and give a commitment to oppose racism in the future - he failed to do any of these things and the resulting sh*tstorm forced the Ghanaian FA to withdraw the job offer. There is zero evidence that he would do anything different at an FAI press conference.

Sagnol is manager of a country that is known for widespread endemic racism - and there is not a single black player in their Euro squad. Now the positive thing is that there are currently mass protests in Georgia (some involving members of their Euro squad) against the 'foreign influence' Bill going through the Georgian parliament.

However - Sagnol getting the Ireland job would mean that a racist would be managing a squad that currently has 7-8 black players involved and the same in the U-21s. What message would it send to the black players in the Irish squad if the FAI appointed a racist as manager?

Irish society has seen an upsurge of racism, actively promoted by far-right and fascist elements (with their 'single black men of military age' etc) - you can be sure that if there is a hint of a racist like Sagnol getting the job there will be pushback against it.

Off topic posts removed. If you want to continue the discussion, use the current affairs forum

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Originally Posted by geysir

The evidence has already been presented and judgement delivered. Wales have been dismal since qual for Qatar, Page has been sacked and that’s the consensus opinion.

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Interesting summary of Page's time in the Wales job here:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football...s/cprr898dnz0o

My own view is that he was probably as good as any Wales were going to get for the salary, only two things did for him:
1. Losing Bale and Ramsey when he did, a decisive factor in Coleman's "successes" previously;
2. Losing Mooney's confidence, then the fans'.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Wales have been dismal since qual for Qatar

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Despite taking four points off the World Cup semi-finalists and coming within a sudden-death penalty shoot-out of reaching the Euros?

There's a suggestion in the BBC article there that the June friendlies (with an experimental team) played a decent part in him being sacked - and to be honest any FA that judges things on June friendlies needs their heads examined.

I'm sure he had his flaws, but dismal? Nah, that's not "dismal" for me; sorry.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

Sagnol is manager of a country that is known for widespread endemic racism - and there is not a single black player in their Euro squad.

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**** me - there's not a single black player in the Georgia squad, said as if this is some sort of Sagnol conspiracy! Have you ever been to Georgia?

People find the most insane things to get offended over.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

**** me - there's not a single black player in the Georgia squad, said as if this is some sort of Sagnol conspiracy! Have you ever been to Georgia?

People find the most insane things to get offended over.

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I understood that post as meaning thats the only demographic type country he could get employment in.

He sure didn't work as a full time manager anywhere else after the Bordeaux incident. Not for years. Until Georgia threw him a bone.

Now why would a coach as clearly capable as he is, be unemployed for almost half a decade in his coaching prime I wonder.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

**** me - there's not a single black player in the Georgia squad, said as if this is some sort of Sagnol conspiracy! Have you ever been to Georgia?

People find the most insane things to get offended over.

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People read what they want to read into comments - to clarify for you - Georgia is a country with endemic racism with widespread discrimination against ethnic minorities. To the best of my knowledge there isn't a single player from an ethnic minority in the squad (apart from possibly Tsitaishvili - who has some Ukrainian ancestry - Ukrainians are not a recognised ethnic minority in Georgia). Guram Kasha was subjected to widespread abuse when he came out in support of LGBTQ+ rights a number of years ago.

In terms of Sagnol's appointment - his racism wasn't an issue for a FA that is part and parcel of the endemic racism in Georgia and given the level of racism in Georgian football there was little issue among the broader support base either.

I get offended by racism and I fight it wherever I see it. Sagnol is a racist and I will be shouting loudly about it as soon as there is a hint the FAI are considering hiring him (assuming he leaves his current job).

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Originally Posted by CSAD

Our prospect literally couldn't play any worse than they currently are... the only possible way with a qualified manager is up. But the squad isnt a chicken or a sow's ear...its a squad valued at over 200m Euro which puts it in the top 20 teams in Europe...if you have a squad with that valuation and are not even competing to qualify for major tournaments then there is something seriously going wrong.

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What do the valuations of particular players mean if you have no midfield!

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Originally Posted by CSAD

Ahhh so now the valuation doesn't matter...it matted a lot when the squad was only about 100m and barely in the top 30 in Europe though didnt it, but when it doesnt suit you're argument it's irrelevant. Like what was said earlier it one of the best ways of impartiality judging a squad and you can try twist reality all you want but these are the facts.

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I said that citing the valuations of those particular players: Ferguson, Collins, O'Brien and Kelleher, and then drawing a correlation between those figures and the prospects of the national side is a foolish thing to do because we have no quality whatsoever in midfield. Midfield's the most important part of the pitch.

Those valuations are also based off potential, and contain a Premier League tax (except for O'Brien). Kelleher isn't a No.1 yet, O'Brien has just emerged this season and Ferguson is still only 19. In other words, some perspective is needed here.

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Originally Posted by CSAD

No offence but that Guardiola argument is garbage, it might be the case at the very top of the game but in the middle/bottom the game is the same it always has been.

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I disagree. You see it, or at least the attempt at it, throughout the game now.

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Originally Posted by CSAD

What we see in the game nowadays is tactics are more important than ever, this "hit n hope" nonsense of the Trap/O'Neill era is long gone and to be competitive you need a management team that are in line with the modern game or at least semi competent tactically....which we simply haven't had in forever really.

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I'm not advocating for 'hit and hope' nonsense.

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Originally Posted by CSAD

Our expectations are reasonable, simply can we be moderately competitive and not play like a minnow...it honestly shouldn't take THAT much for a manager to accomplish that. We were competitive for 2016,2018 & 2020 tournament and qualifiers with a worse squad so I dont see the how asking to be competitive is setting the bar too high.

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I'd hope for any manager to make us moderately competitive, but as for substantial changes in our fortunes I just don't see how that's accomplished with, you guessed it, our midfield. C'est la vie!

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

People read what they want to read into comments - to clarify for you - Georgia is a country with endemic racism with widespread discrimination against ethnic minorities. To the best of my knowledge there isn't a single player from an ethnic minority in the squad (apart from possibly Tsitaishvili - who has some Ukrainian ancestry - Ukrainians are not a recognised ethnic minority in Georgia). Guram Kasha was subjected to widespread abuse when he came out in support of LGBTQ+ rights a number of years ago.

In terms of Sagnol's appointment - his racism wasn't an issue for a FA that is part and parcel of the endemic racism in Georgia and given the level of racism in Georgian football there was little issue among the broader support base either.

I get offended by racism and I fight it wherever I see it. Sagnol is a racist and I will be shouting loudly about it as soon as there is a hint the FAI are considering hiring him (assuming he leaves his current job).

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Re: the bold it's more correct to say that you believe he's a racist. There isn't definitive proof that he is, rather it's a belief, and racism itself exists on a spectrum or continuum. I'm also generally uncomfortable with the lack of redemption that seems more prevalent in society nowadays, but that's very much a side issue here.

I don't think there's a chance of Sagnol getting the job in any case.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Off topic posts removed. If you want to continue the discussion, use the current affairs forum

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The current affairs section is pretty much dead. You may as well tell people to discuss it privately.

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Originally Posted by The Fly

The current affairs section is pretty much dead. You may as well tell people to discuss it privately.

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It'll only stay dead if you don't start a discussion there

Maybe Steve Clarke will be available soon.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Maybe Steve Clarke will be available soon.

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I'd take him ~ ~ He could do with some Irish Crack in him mind !

Just give it to Chris Hughton already!

Clarke is definitely underappreciated in Scotland. They didn't get out of their group but to make a team with a keeper and back line of Gunn, Ralston, Hendry, Hanley and McKenna remotely competitive at a tournament finals is actually quite an achievement.

He's been papering over the cracks in that Scottish defence as well as up front for five years now, but they've the oldest squad in the tournament so maybe it's time for him to move on and leave their somewhat deluded fans to their misery.

In my opinion that was a penalty for Scotland and that would have put a different complexion on how that game went last night.

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Originally Posted by seanfhear

In my opinion that was a penalty for Scotland and that would have put a different complexion on how that game went last night.

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For someone who spent two years talking about lucky generals, you’ve gone a full 180 degrees

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Originally Posted by elatedscum

For someone who spent two years talking about lucky generals, you’ve gone a full 180 degrees

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Ya got me ~ ~ Ruling Clarke out ~ ~ He is too miserable anyway and unlucky to boot !

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Originally Posted by seanfhear

Ya got me ~ ~ Ruling Clarke out ~ ~ He is too miserable anyway and unlucky to boot !

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Is Moyes a realistic option? Probably get better offers with better pay, but might just be tempted by a less stressful spell as an international manager?

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Originally Posted by third policeman

Is Moyes a realistic option? Probably get better offers with better pay, but might just be tempted by a less stressful spell as an international manager?

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You'd doubt that we have the kind of money to get Moyes ~ He certainly would be a very good candidate if he was interested in international management and in managing us.

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Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke

I understood that post as meaning thats the only demographic type country he could get employment in.

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Possibly so, yeah (JRG's intention rather than the actual argument).

The argument itself seems a bit like filling a vacuum with no real basis though. (Why didn't he have any jobs in the meantime? It must be because he's really racist! But is he the first manager ever with a CV gap?) I'm uncomfortable with that sort of stuff. I'll echo The Fly's excellent post in that regard.

Tbh, I'm also uncomfortable with JRG's comments on Nkencho though - I think they tell a lot about the poster, so I'm happy to back away from any further discussion there. I'm not sure JRG's anger/attitude in all this is helpful.

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Originally Posted by third policeman

Is Moyes a realistic option? Probably get better offers with better pay, but might just be tempted by a less stressful spell as an international manager?

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Moyes maybe more likely to take the Scotland job if Clarke feels he's taken it as far as he can?

Think he's contracted for the next campaign though, so that mayn't be an option for him. Think it'd be a stretch for us to appoint him though

I feel like we're on a slippery slope discussing whether or not someone is racist, and what is/isn't racist.
Can we move on from the Sagnol discussion, unless he's conclusively linked with the job again

I have to say I feel very sorry for Scotland, its a clear peno and VAR did nothing

They should be in the last 16 and now they are going home

I don't believe for a second that if thats was Germany or Spain that VAR would react in the same manner

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Originally Posted by Diggs246

I have to say I feel very sorry for Scotland, its a clear peno and VAR did nothing

They should be in the last 16 and now they are going home

I don't believe for a second that if thats was Germany or Spain that VAR would react in the same manner

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Definite penalty ~ ~ How can the ' best " referees with Var not give that ? !

Is it still, Brits Out, with UEFA ? !

I thought Armstrong was offside when the ball was played to him, but it doesn't seem like the TV replays wanted to clear that up. Regardless, it doesn't seem like VAR checked for anything.

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Originally Posted by seanfhear

Definite penalty ~ ~ How can the ' best " referees with Var not give that ? !

Is it still, Brits Out, with UEFA ? !

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Even the linesman. What's his thought process?

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Originally Posted by third policeman

Is Moyes a realistic option? Probably get better offers with better pay, but might just be tempted by a less stressful spell as an international manager?

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If he should fancy international football, then surely Scotland would be much more likely?

And let's face it, Clarke must be on very shaky ground right now, so we could see a vacancy soon enough.

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Originally Posted by third policeman

Is Moyes a realistic option? Probably get better offers with better pay, but might just be tempted by a less stressful spell as an international manager?

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Not even in our dreams would Moyes be a realistic option. Doubt we'd even get someone like Clarke if Scotland sacked him this summer.

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Originally Posted by seanfhear

Is it still, Brits Out, with UEFA ? !

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I hope so.

It is interesting that Moyes is being suggested here - but a coach who is available and would probably want the job has been dismissed from the FAI's radar - Chris Hughton.

Let's look at their coaching record -

David Moyes - 61 years old and has coached 6 teams over 7 occasions over a 26 year period.
Chris Hughton - 65 years old - coached 5 club teams and one international team (and was caretaker on two occasions with a sixth club - Spurs) over 16 years.

- Moyes spent 4 years at Preston taking them from what is now League One to the Championship - he walked out on Preston in 2002 to take over Everton.
- Moyes spent 10 years at Everton - with the first few years up and down - flirting with relegation in between putting some good campaigns together. While at the club Moyes was facilitated with significant amounts of money to build his squad. His last couple of years were relatively successful and that led him to getting the job at Man Utd after Ferguson retired.
- His year at MU was a disaster - and some would argue that it was always going to be. Irrespective of that - Moyes proved pretty much incompetent when it came to managing the club. He was sacked after one season.
- In 2014 he was appointed manager of Real Sociedad - again poor job and he was sacked a day less than a year in charge.
- Next stop was Sunderland in the PL - Moyes succeeded in getting them relegated and was gone after one season.
- He then did a six month stint at West Ham where he succeeded in preventing relegation.
- Last job - Appointed manager of West Ham on New Year's Eve 2019. His four and a half seasons at West Ham were successful - including winning the Euro Conference League in 2023.

Overall - for Moyes - one hit with West Ham - one up and down with Everton that ended on an up and three disasters in between.

Chris Hughton
- Got Newcastle promoted to PL in 2010 and had them competing in the PL (with mostly free agents and loan signings) when Ashley sacked him so he could give his gambling buddy a job.
- After being linked with WBA, West Ham and Cardiff - took over at Birmingham. In his one season there, without any money, Hughton got Birmingham (a Championship club) to the group stages of the Europa League and the Championship play-offs
- Norwich approached Birmingham to talk to Hughton - in his first season Norwich finished 11th (again with little money to spend). In his second season Norwich were 5 points above relegation with five games to go - the Norwich board panicked, sacked Hughton, got one point from the last five games and were relegated.
- New years eve 2014 Hughton took over at Brighton with them in the relegation zone in the Championship. In his first full season Brighton finished 3rd, losing just five times and missing automatic promotion by 2 goals (difference) - Brighton lost in the play-offs. His second season Brighton won automatic promotion. Subsequently, with relatively little money to spend and a bottom three budget, Hughton kept Brighton in the PL for two seasons and laid the groundwork for their subsequent progress in the PL. He was sacked (unfairly in my view) after 4 1/2 years.
- In October 2020 Hughton took over at Forest with the club bottom of the Championship, having lost all their games. He kept the club up in his first season. The start of the following season was a disaster (mainly because of a large number of injuries and because the club wouldn't get the players Hughton wanted) and he was sacked in September.
- In Feb 2022 Hughton became Technical Director of the Ghana team, taking over as manager a year later. Hughton qualified Ghana for the AFCON and was sacked after Ghana didn't progress from the group stages (technically he wasn't sacked - his contract ended with elimination from AFCON).

Overall for Hughton - a hit with Newcastle - did well at Birmingham and Brighton - reasonably well at Norwich - pretty bad at Forest and not so good with Ghana either.

Now I think Moyes is a good manager - although I don't like his personality (he has been penalised for foul and abusive language towards match officials on several occasions - and suggested to a female reporter that she deserved a slap for the questions she was asking). He has been in the game for a long time and has managed to hang around in the upper reaches of club football. However, he was reputed to be on £5m a year at West Ham and likely will be offered something similar in the near future.

I also think Hughton is a good manager - and the guy is a gentleman who is respected throughout the game. Money has never been a motivating factor for Hughton and he was the lowest played manager in the PL when at Brighton. He is also very loyal to his employers (even when they didn't reciprocate) - and has always operated on a team first basis. He also has experience as manager of an international team. One other thing that Hughton has not had in his managerial career is a group of talented young players - particularly a player like Ferguson - and I, for one, would love to see what he could do with them.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

It is interesting that Moyes is being suggested here - but a coach who is available and would probably want the job has been dismissed from the FAI's radar - Chris Hughton.

Let's look at their coaching record -

David Moyes - 61 years old and has coached 6 teams over 7 occasions over a 26 year period.
Chris Hughton - 65 years old - coached 5 club teams and one international team (and was caretaker on two occasions with a sixth club - Spurs) over 16 years.

- Moyes spent 4 years at Preston taking them from what is now League One to the Championship - he walked out on Preston in 2002 to take over Everton.
- Moyes spent 10 years at Everton - with the first few years up and down - flirting with relegation in between putting some good campaigns together. While at the club Moyes was facilitated with significant amounts of money to build his squad. His last couple of years were relatively successful and that led him to getting the job at Man Utd after Ferguson retired.
- His year at MU was a disaster - and some would argue that it was always going to be. Irrespective of that - Moyes proved pretty much incompetent when it came to managing the club. He was sacked after one season.
- In 2014 he was appointed manager of Real Sociedad - again poor job and he was sacked a day less than a year in charge.
- Next stop was Sunderland in the PL - Moyes succeeded in getting them relegated and was gone after one season.
- He then did a six month stint at West Ham where he succeeded in preventing relegation.
- Last job - Appointed manager of West Ham on New Year's Eve 2019. His four and a half seasons at West Ham were successful - including winning the Euro Conference League in 2023.

Overall - for Moyes - one hit with West Ham - one up and down with Everton that ended on an up and three disasters in between.

Chris Hughton
- Got Newcastle promoted to PL in 2010 and had them competing in the PL (with mostly free agents and loan signings) when Ashley sacked him so he could give his gambling buddy a job.
- After being linked with WBA, West Ham and Cardiff - took over at Birmingham. In his one season there, without any money, Hughton got Birmingham (a Championship club) to the group stages of the Europa League and the Championship play-offs
- Norwich approached Birmingham to talk to Hughton - in his first season Norwich finished 11th (again with little money to spend). In his second season Norwich were 5 points above relegation with five games to go - the Norwich board panicked, sacked Hughton, got one point from the last five games and were relegated.
- New years eve 2014 Hughton took over at Brighton with them in the relegation zone in the Championship. In his first full season Brighton finished 3rd, losing just five times and missing automatic promotion by 2 goals (difference) - Brighton lost in the play-offs. His second season Brighton won automatic promotion. Subsequently, with relatively little money to spend and a bottom three budget, Hughton kept Brighton in the PL for two seasons and laid the groundwork for their subsequent progress in the PL. He was sacked (unfairly in my view) after 4 1/2 years.
- In October 2020 Hughton took over at Forest with the club bottom of the Championship, having lost all their games. He kept the club up in his first season. The start of the following season was a disaster (mainly because of a large number of injuries and because the club wouldn't get the players Hughton wanted) and he was sacked in September.
- In Feb 2022 Hughton became Technical Director of the Ghana team, taking over as manager a year later. Hughton qualified Ghana for the AFCON and was sacked after Ghana didn't progress from the group stages (technically he wasn't sacked - his contract ended with elimination from AFCON).

Overall for Hughton - a hit with Newcastle - did well at Birmingham and Brighton - reasonably well at Norwich - pretty bad at Forest and not so good with Ghana either.

Now I think Moyes is a good manager - although I don't like his personality (he has been penalised for foul and abusive language towards match officials on several occasions - and suggested to a female reporter that she deserved a slap for the questions she was asking). He has been in the game for a long time and has managed to hang around in the upper reaches of club football. However, he was reputed to be on £5m a year at West Ham and likely will be offered something similar in the near future.

I also think Hughton is a good manager - and the guy is a gentleman who is respected throughout the game. Money has never been a motivating factor for Hughton and he was the lowest played manager in the PL when at Brighton. He is also very loyal to his employers (even when they didn't reciprocate) - and has always operated on a team first basis. He also has experience as manager of an international team. One other thing that Hughton has not had in his managerial career is a group of talented young players - particularly a player like Ferguson - and I, for one, would love to see what he could do with them.

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For the record, I’d be happy with Hughton. A dose of basic competence would be a refreshing change. The sooner this pantomime ends the better.

Hughton would be fine - and looking better as this charade goes on - but I think the near deification of him is tiresome. I don't see we're going to get anyone to get excited over, and Hughton would come in that category I think. (But we can still get better than Kenny of course)

But given we seem to have approached him in April and nothing happened, what's changed now?

And surely Scotland - given their attacking performance across the three Euro games - would have missed that penalty anyway?!

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

But given we seem to have approached him in April and nothing happened, what's changed now?

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The FAI were reported to have dismissed Hughton as a candidate at the end of January.

I suspect that the April story was more to keep the FAI process afloat (Barry was also mentioned at the same time) - and if it is accurate Hughton could have adopted the attitude of 'you rejected me a couple of months ago and now you want to talk again' - I doubt this - its not in his character. It is more likely - if it did happen - that Hughton needed to recharge the batteries and deal with the personal stress from the Ghana job. If the FAI really wanted to get Hughton they would be beating down his door at this stage.

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Originally Posted by Diggs246

I have to say I feel very sorry for Scotland, its a clear peno and VAR did nothing

They should be in the last 16 and now they are going home

I don't believe for a second that if thats was Germany or Spain that VAR would react in the same manner

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A bit late to this, but if both players are fouling each other, surely it can't be a penalty? Armstrong was caught from behind, but he was also pulling the number 6 off the front of the Hungarian's jersey at the same time (a hint of the old Gaelic football trick - pull the defender into you to win the free). If they're both fouling each other it can only be treated as a coming together, so no penalty. Can only assume VAR saw that so decided not to intervene.

Also, it's Scotland. They'd probably have missed the penalty and even if they had scored it they'd have conceded after that anyway. They're specialists in failure, you don't get to 12 major finals and go out in the first round 12 times without having some kind of particular weakness that causes that. Especially when quite a few of those tournaments have been reducing 24 teams to 16 i.e. nearly easier to go through than get knocked out.

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Armstrong was caught from behind, but he was also pulling the number 6 off the front of the Hungarian's jersey at the same time (a hint of the old Gaelic football trick - pull the defender into you to win the free).

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That's how I saw it too, a pair of them in it, BUT in the replays it's clear that Armstrong started fouling first,m so if anything it should have been a free out.

But the shirt grab was only as a result of the Hungarian colliding into Armstrong first.

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Originally Posted by third policeman

For the record, I’d be happy with Hughton. A dose of basic competence would be a refreshing change. The sooner this pantomime ends the better.

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At this stage I'll happily take Hughton if it means JRG will finally give over constantly banging on about how great he is.

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Originally Posted by Diggs246

I have to say I feel very sorry for Scotland, its a clear peno and VAR did nothing

They should be in the last 16 and now they are going home

I don't believe for a second that if thats was Germany or Spain that VAR would react in the same manner

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It wasn't a clear penalty. It was a 'seen them given' type coming together. There wasn't enough there to overturn the on field decision

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Originally Posted by backstothewall

It wasn't a clear penalty. It was a 'seen them given' type coming together. There wasn't enough there to overturn the on field decision

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Even though I thought "Penalty!" watching it live, I agree with your reading above.

The corollary being that had the ref determined it was a penalty, there probably wouldn't have been sufficiently "clear and obvious" error in his decision for VAR to overturn it. It's how it goes, really.

Anyhow, even assuming Scotland had scored the penalty, it would still only have made it 1-1 and I don't think 2 points would have been enough to secure a third placed qualification spot for them when you look at their GD after the Germany hammering?

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Anyhow, even assuming Scotland had scored the penalty, it would still only have made it 1-1 and I don't think 2 points would have been enough to secure a third placed qualification spot for them when you look at their GD after the Germany hammering?

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It would have put them 1-0 up, not 1-1.

You can't assume the rest of the game would have panned out as it did, especially how the Scots were caught on the counter in the 100th minute trying to nab a winner.