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Originally Posted by
EalingGreen
Note that I did not call him a "scumbag", nor would I use that term. Nor did I (intend to, at least) imply that you thought him a scumbag.
There undoubtedly was an implicit suggestion in what you said. You insinuated that the description I offered on here regarding Gibson in his school-days was in some way synonymous with - whatever exact meaning you wish to invoke - the character of a "scumbag", as someone else had described him on OWC with what I felt were sectarian connotations beyond a mere personal level and relating to more than just his general character. You can't deny that. This is exactly what you said:
"Anyhow, if Gibson is not a "scumbag", do you recognise this description of him from a certain other website the other day?..."
At the least, what you were trying to do was put words in my mouth. Naturally, I felt compelled to refute the original nasty slur and its association by yourself to what I had said in post #1237.
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If, having defended DG on OWC, you are a little embarrassed at having your own words from elsewhere quoted, then there you go - these things happen on the Internet. (Perhaps you aren't embarrassed, I don't know).
No, you're correct; I'm not embarrassed. I didn't contradict myself, after all. In fact, I've defended his right to play for us without having to put up with being dubbed a "scumbag" before in full knowledge of what my old English teacher thought of him and I would still defend him on that front now.
I admit my understanding of the minutiae surrounding the whole eligibility issue wasn't as complete or refined then as it is now, having had a glance over what else I'd written, but there's no shame in that, nor would there be much point in picking holes in unpolished arguments I've long since attempted to bolster out of better educating myself on the issues. I certainly didn't invest time trying to improve my overall comprehension of the whole thing in order to maintain the exact same position as the one with which I started nearly half a decade ago.
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As for having no opportunity to defend yourself, I forgot/overlooked that you were banned, I suspect because I thought a Banned Member's posting history was deleted from site and therefore wouldn't show up on the Search function?
Technically, I was suspended for something daft and arbitrary like eight years, but it appears posting histories are not deleted in any case. Predator's posts similarly remain in spite of his recent outright banning, although, I believe a few of his last ones were deleted for being "speculative" in nature, which appears to be against forum rules as of a week and a half ago. Ultimately, the mods have the discretion to keep what they wish and censor what they wish at whim.
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Beyond that, all I can say is that your original post offers an interesting insight on one aspect of the Gibson saga which always puzzled me. Namely, I have seen him/his family quoted as saying that he originally only fell out with the IFA because they insisted he play for one of our under-age teams, rather than be allowed to attend a training session at Old Trafford. This was what then caused him to turn to the FAI.
On the other hand, I have also seen him/his family quoted as saying it "had always been his dream to play for Ireland etc".
The two are not incompatible and need not contradict one another. Whether he played with and fell out with the IFA or not, there is no strict contradiction in possessing an ultimate wish to play for Ireland one day, presumably at senior level. Although he did make the switch at the age of 16 or so. Perhaps the falling out with the IFA over the trial at United simply hastened his inevitable "defection to the Darkside".
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Perhaps the explanation is that whilst he's no "scumbag", he is a contrary hoor?
That's to miss the point of what I found objectionable about the use of the word "scumbag" within the context in which it was originally used on OWC to refer to Gibson. I am of the opinion that it was loaded with politicised contempt in the context of the debate. Basically, as I said in the 2007 post from OWC you quoted:
"I felt there was something more to it than simple annoyance towards the guy for not choosing to represent Northern Ireland"
To be blunt, I feel he was being called a "scumbag" for reasons beyond merely having no intention to play for Northern Ireland, but also because he:
i) Happened to be from a Catholic/nationalist background.
ii) Switched to "the Baggars", of all possible places!
I don't think a northern-born Protestant with a Welsh parent, for example, would be dubbed a "scumbag" if they expressed an intention to represent Wales and the slur then subsequently accepted as appropriate. In the context there was a lot of hatred, bitterness and contempt behind the word "scumbag" that I just don't feel a willingness alone on some player's part to play for another team over Northern Ireland could warrant, but maybe that's just me... See the thread on Shane Lowry on this forum, for example, and you'll see a more appropriate reaction to a very similar decision made by a player whereby we lost someone who had represented us at under-age level to Australia. Rather than dub him a "scumbag", however, his wish to play for Australia was accepted as perfectly understandable given his dual nationality and he was broadly wished the best of luck.
If, however, in this instance here and now, "scumbag" was to be treated as synonymous with "contrary hoor" and free of any sectarian baggage - although, I must add, it wouldn't be my word of choice - maybe I would have less of a problem with it. After all, and for what it's worth, my own feeling is that Gibson probably is a bit of a stubborn one. But as I said, it's all about nuance and context. Consider the difference between an African-American referring to another African-America as "n*gger" and a Caucasian referring to an African-American as such. The former is considered neutral when used in a familiar sense; the latter is considered a social taboo and deeply offensive. Ultimately, I feel OWC is a forum in denial and one of complete hypocrisy.
