Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

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Originally Posted by Burnsie

And that's why, in my view, there's not a hope that it'll attract a single existing junior or intermediate club, bar maybe the odd quirky outlier. We're already two years past when it was initially due to launch, and essentially established club has expressed the slightest bit of interest.

You're asking them to sign up to a whole range expense and regulation, without any prospect of recouping the costs.

In a functioning footballing country, there would be six-figure grants to incentivise participation.

Sure the FAI can't even intervene to get an under 13 girls league going in North Dublin. How are they going to persuade 40+ adult leagues to switch to a calendar year season?

You can list off as many provincial towns as you like in this thread, but from what I've seen there's zero chance of a genuine pyramid in this country for the next generation at least.

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Yeah, I completely agree with this and I don't see the third tier taking place anytime soon. But I'm also curious to know the size of the difference in costs & regs that we're talking about.

From what I've seen on this forum and elsewhere it's about 500k to 1m+ to run a Prem Division team and closer to 2m+ if you want to get near the title. And almost all of our Prem teams are running at a loss. If anyone has ranges for 1st division clubs, please jump in!

So I'm keen to hear folks opinions on the extra expenses/regulations involved for these senior/provincial teams in a regionalised third tier? My working theory is that if you make the environment criteria as similar as possible to the existing senior leagues, then you only have to overcome the calendar and the politics (ha! only!!). Which might mean it's a 5 figure sum instead of a 6 figure grant per team (or it could be completely naive and they'll need 7 figures).

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Originally Posted by Elfman

I agree with you on this so to play Devil's Advocate for a moment... What if we made the third tier amateur? It would help with the problem Nigel mentioned about a lack of competition due to wage disparity.

I know it doesn't fix the calendar issue as Burnsie says so I'm trying to think of other concessions, like realistic stadium criteria or regulations, that could be done before/if the calendar is ever aligned.

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I'm not sure what the point of making it amateur would be. If there's top provincial sides paying wages, then you won't get them in an amateur league (or certainly you won't get their players). Does that not defeat the point?

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Originally Posted by Burnsie

And that's why, in my view, there's not a hope that it'll attract a single existing junior or intermediate club, bar maybe the odd quirky outlier. We're already two years past when it was initially due to launch, and essentially established club has expressed the slightest bit of interest.

You're asking them to sign up to a whole range expense and regulation, without any prospect of recouping the costs.

In a functioning footballing country, there would be six-figure grants to incentivise participation.

Sure the FAI can't even intervene to get an under 13 girls league going in North Dublin. How are they going to persuade 40+ adult leagues to switch to a calendar year season?

You can list off as many provincial towns as you like in this thread, but from what I've seen there's zero chance of a genuine pyramid in this country for the next generation at least.

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It's a great point about the NDSL U13 girls dispute too so I don't want to ignore it. I'll try to comment without too much of a sidetrack! But yeah, unfortunately I don't see a solution to the calendar issue without incentivisation (either through money or prestige).

I actually thought the FAI were intervening but at the club level rather than then admin level. I read they were trying to lobby other leagues like the DDSL to admit any NDSL clubs that hadn't found a new league past the registration deadline. I'm not close to it nor do I want to be seen to defend anyone involved but it unfortunately appears there are no existing governance rules for FAI affiliates (leagues or bodies) hence the FAI's apparent inability to force a resolution, although this article claims they are trying to bring in better standards:
https://www.independent.ie/irish-new...811457442.html

Short of mediation, can the FAI force affiliate admins to manage a league if they don't want to? Genuine question because clearly the most important people here, the players, aren't being prioritised.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I'm not sure what the point of making it amateur would be. If there's top provincial sides paying wages, then you won't get them in an amateur league (or certainly you won't get their players). Does that not defeat the point?

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I suppose the point is to connect the pyramid. So if a senior league team with high wages can't meet realistic 3rd tier criteria around facilities, youth or staff then my question is... should they be paying such high wages in the first place? By being strictly amateur, the hope would be that you are giving encouragement to teams who already invest in those other areas because this would be the pinnacle for amateur teams (assuming each senior league has at least one!).

Granted, I still see loads of problems - I'm just trying to envision a quasi-realistic scenario where the 1st division clubs have somewhere to fall and senior clubs with ambition have somewhere to strive for.

As you say, if senior teams are already playing players decent wages (are they close to 1st division amounts?) you'll still have better players playing in the senior leagues for the money. So until there is a cash injection for 3rd tier clubs, the only way I could see it working would be for the prestige (and hopefully better facilities!).

But keen to hear your views Stu I'm loving this discussion! :good:

When Cabo started with a full amateur squad in 2016, I think I read they had budgeted for first team expenses to run to €150,000. To be honest I'd say it could be double that at this stage, and that's before you start into academy costs (which were not included in that Cabo figure because they already had an underage set-up and were keeping the two separate)

And on top of that you'll have various one-off costs to meet licencing requirements, assuming they won't just allow third-tier matches in the local astro cage

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Originally Posted by Elfman

But keen to hear your views Stu I'm loving this discussion! :good:

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I don't really disagree with you on much to be honest. The calendar disconnect is huge. I get that you're trying to find ways around that and I'm not altogether convinced there is one (and I'm not sure you're convinced either!)

I don't really agree with the idea of doing things for the sake of it - creating a third tier just because we're supposed to have more layers. I think it could be counter-productive - largely for the reasons you note, and in particular what's in it for the new clubs? If you get really poor clubs coming up, does it just hamper them in terms of being completely uncompetitive from the off and being unable to build up a bit of support (as we've seen happen with other clubs before, most recently Cabo, and potentially Kerry too)

As far as I can see, the best way is to make the LSL/MSL/etc the third tier, but obviously that's not an option right now for various reasons.

I've said before on here I think the move to summer football was one of the most short-sighted the FAI have ever taken.

Whatever form a third tier division is envisaged by the FAI, should the number of clubs be restricted from the general Dublin area?

If its a division of say 10 maybe only 1 club and for a division of 12 a limit of 2 Dublin based clubs!

Considering the Premier Division clubs of Shels, Bohs, Pats & Shamrocks are thriving in regards to attracting great crowds while being restricted with capacities that could be improved with further Government investment, the last thing the clubs need is more based in the Dublin area. UCD have limited support, The Cabo project never really worked while the partnership thing with Bray is still questionable!

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Originally Posted by nr637

Whatever form a third tier division is envisaged by the FAI, should the number of clubs be restricted from the general Dublin area?

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No. Thurles, Newcastlewest, Kildare, Monaghan, Kilkenny, Mervue and Salthill from outside Dublin hardly drew huge crowds either.

You want the best teams you can get in it.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

No. Thurles, Newcastlewest, Kildare, Monaghan, Kilkenny, Mervue and Salthill from outside Dublin hardly drew huge crowds either.

You want the best teams you can get in it.

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I must re-affirm that I do not have an anti Dublin view on this and agree you must have the best teams you can get and if that is more Dublin based clubs, fair enough. But, you don't want to create a metropolitan type of league system either.

Is there a particular area of Dublin City or suburb that has been neglected as far as having a LOI club that could offer a good support to a new team!

There's plenty of suburbs in Dublin that have populations double that of counties with current LOI clubs tbf. One off the top of my head, Lucan has a relatively strong club and a population almost double that of the county of Longford

This idea of picking areas that have been neglected has been shown time and again not to work. There's no club in Cabinteely or Fingal - and look how things worked when one was simply dropped in.

Let new clubs arise naturally through a proper pyramid (which isn't going to happen for the forseeable future, and the proposed third tier is not a step in the creation of a proper pyramid, but an extension of a failed one), and accept that in all probability there isn't a new Waterford/Sligo/Pat's/whoever out there.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

This idea of picking areas that have been neglected has been shown time and again not to work. There's no club in Cabinteely or Fingal - and look how things worked when one was simply dropped in.

Let new clubs arise naturally through a proper pyramid (which isn't going to happen for the forseeable future, and the proposed third tier is not a step in the creation of a proper pyramid, but an extension of a failed one), and accept that in all probability there isn't a new Waterford/Sligo/Pat's/whoever out there.

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With you on that. Like any league we will have small clubs and big clubs. My club had 60 years of existence before becoming a league club. 40 years now in the league and its still a struggle, but its that long period of time that inspires people to keep it going. Your not going to get that passion for an idea or concept, not for season after season.

Of the newer clubs, Wexford have established themselves, and its too soon to know re Kerry, but the list of tried and failed is far longer, be it in Dublin or elsewhere.

The same point again. For a professional league to viable in Ireland, there should not be a saturation of clubs in an area. A sensible enough approach has been taken on the clubs who can join the youth leagues.

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Originally Posted by Acornvilla

There's plenty of suburbs in Dublin that have populations double that of counties with current LOI clubs tbf. One off the top of my head, Lucan has a relatively strong club and a population almost double that of the county of Longford

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But a large proportiom of those residents are not from Dublin, and even more so not from the particular neighbourhood where they currently live. Some of those living there who are already interested in LOI will have an affinity with the clubs from where they're originally from. A sizeable chunk of others won't be living in that suburban neighbourhood permanently, so are unlikely to develop much of a local affinity with it. Etc, Etc. It's the transient nature of large cities (especially with so many forced to rent in Dublin due to the high cost of housing). The presence of a large suburban population by no means guarantees a fertile pool of potemtial support for an LOI club there.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

But a large proportiom of those residents are not from Dublin, and even more so not from the particular neighbourhood where they currently live. Some of those living there who are already interested in LOI will have an affinity with the clubs from where they're originally from. A sizeable chunk of others won't be living in that suburban neighbourhood permanently, so are unlikely to develop much of a local affinity with it. Etc, Etc. It's the transient nature of large cities (especially with so many forced to rent in Dublin due to the high cost of housing). The presence of a large suburban population by no means guarantees a fertile pool of potemtial support for an LOI club there.

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I don't disagree with any of that, I just picked an area that did already have a club off the top of my head, there's always rumours of a club or two within the capital thinking about it.

If Premier Division clubs show solidarity with First Division clubs in allowing 15% of the UEFA solidarity payments to be shared between them, First Division clubs might not be enthusiastic about any future expansion of the First Division.

Mayo FC looking to enter the league ahead of schedule

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2024/11...-fc-struggles/

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Originally Posted by DCSIL

Mayo FC looking to enter the league ahead of schedule

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2024/11...-fc-struggles/

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There's really nothing in that article other than the author speculating. I would wager they were targeting the 2026 third tier regardless.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

No. Thurles, Newcastlewest, Kildare, Monaghan, Kilkenny, Mervue and Salthill from outside Dublin hardly drew huge crowds either.

You want the best teams you can get in it.

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Though likewise - neither did all the 'failed' Dublin clubs from the same era e.g. Cabinteely, St Francis, Sporting Fingal, Dublin City, St James's Gate. Despite Gate in particular beiong a team with a great LOI pedigree and support in the past.

So there isn't an issue whereby specifically 'new' clubs outside of Dublin can't draw a crowd - with the insinuation being that clubs in Dublin would/could/might. The reality instead is that new LOI clubs tend to have little or no established support when they join, no matter where they're from (even Cabinteely, which allegedly had a couple of billion people on its books as players). Probably because most football support is buitl up slowly over time at a senior level, and is often inter-generational. So if support is going to be either a yard stick for, or a stick to beat with, new entrants then we'll never accept anyone.

I suspect Kerry have been the best supported 'new' entrant we've seen since 1985?

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

There's really nothing in that article other than the author speculating. I would wager they were targeting the 2026 third tier regardless.

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Agree. I think it's also lazy and unhelpful journalism for the artice to talk about clubs plural struggling in the LOI = "the financial challenges facing some of its leading clubs". It's just Dundalk, isn't it?

It then goes on to say "Should Dundalk or another club be unable to field a team" - when it is only Dundalk who are in anything like such a position as far as I'm aware?

Lazy and unhelpful journalism.