I couldn't give a shíte about the sensitivities of the rabble that support sunderland and I doubt anyone else does around here. It's worthless, slightly amusing dribble.
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I couldn't give a shíte about the sensitivities of the rabble that support sunderland and I doubt anyone else does around here. It's worthless, slightly amusing dribble.
I'm just trying to make the point that there is two sides to every story. Or at least try because the mods are blocking some of my post.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
But anyway I won't change peoples minds because some wont accept SAFC's side or even entertain it. Now that is petty.
Those pesky mods blocking parts of posts as usual.
No we're not, post away
Ok. I was replying @DannyInvincible post the Poppy.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
If you agree with he was right not to wear the Poppy then you have to understand that people will get annoyed over someone who refuses to. To them it's spitting on the graves of their fallen heroes. Plus he didn't help himself by posting The Board Black Brimmer on his Twitter account a week later, a song about a member of the IRA. And people we view Bobby Sands as a terrorist. He was told stay off Twitter for his only safety but refused. He has to take some of the blame for his own actions. Our PR was naïve to think it would just blow over but in hindsight it was an nothing story. So he wasn't hung out to dry. Surely people can understand when SAFC are furious with him?
As I said, there's two sides to every story. McCleans isn't fact.
If you read back through this thread lots of us have said he hasn't helped himself at times. You're going further than that and questioning his commitment, his effort and his professionalism on the football field, and citing lads on a message board to back it up.
I always thought it was harsh on Kilbane. Sometimes players infuriate fans. Kilbane was a trier but he wasn't very good. He'd run at a play and lose or if he did beat him he'd cross it into the North Stand. That can get on fans nervous. McClean was the same in his second season. He'd do the same thing over and over again. Plus we were getting a picture of him of having a bad attitude with rumours of his mates coming over and acting up. Everyday there was some story about him. Plus his diet was poor. So it looked like he wasn't putting the effort in. That was the main reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
I was pointing out that people who live in Sunderland and watch them every week would have a better opinion of him. Yes I am questioning his commitment, effort and professionalism because I seen a player who looked like the next big thing ending up looking hopeless and lazy. His off field problems are well documented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Well maybe your problem then is thinking he was the next big thing, because he wasn't. If Sunderland fans are upset that a decent player didn't magically become a great player just because they wished him to, it's hardly anyone's problem but their own. I've been on the Sunderland message boards a couple of times over the years and there seems to be a large concentration of dimwits. Perhaps they're right about McClean but I'd be more inclined to believe the guy who's never come across as anything other than an honest professional who's thankful for the opportunities he's been given to make a living from his ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
Dimwits?;) Why is that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Believe what you want but I'm just giving another side of the story. As I said, we didn't hang him out to dry and that's the true.
Of course, and there'll be groans every now and again. That doesn't explain how every other set of supporters Kilbane togged our for, in the main, appreciated his efforts, yet all he got at Sunderland was abuse. Let's face it, there were plenty far worse players to wear the Sunderland jersey than Kilbane, both in terms of ability and attitude. Fair enough you accept it was harsh, but my point was that, for me, it brings the credibility of these so called fans into question.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
Why questioned our credibility? They seen these players week in week out. So all SAFC fans are wrong and you should believe a word we say?Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Agreed, but I think that the poppy itself has been twisted from wearing it representing a show of support to not wearing it as an insult to veterans. It's getting to the stage where if you don't have a massive show of support (bigger than last year's) then it's treated as the same insult, see Rangers' demonstration as an exampleQuote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
Technically it's about the son of an IRA member getting married in his father's uniform, but fair enough, it's going to cause friction. You'd have to admit there are far more inflammatory songs from the Wolfe Tones - who actually experienced a minor surge in popularity because of the controversy. What I had a problem with at the time was that other Irish players on twitter said they also liked the song - David Meyler was one - but weren't subject to the same abuse. Added to that there's any number of footballers in England on twitter supporting acts with history of alcohol, drugs and violence, without the same abuseQuote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, but again I see your point. In England he was seen as the latter.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
This is true, he should have dropped his account permanently far earlier than he did.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
It was a nothing story that was blown out of all proportion by people looking to make a name for themselves started by Gregory Campbell, and eventually led to him leaving the club.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
What led to him leaving was his bad form and I think both needed a clean break. The club is terrible at PR ever since Quinn left, you just have to look at the di Canio fiasco. So it's not surprising the Poppy thing came back to bite us. Maybe I'm been a little to harsh on McClean because the squad professionalism was called into questioned that season. He could have been going along with the crowd and it was him who notice the most. He might he been the one who caught the most flak (just like Kilbane during the 19pts season) He could have just been a victim of the sinking ship that we are now but it does grind me that he said he was hung out to dry! But the relationship between the fans and the players is at a low. It has been for awhile.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Sure, why they'd want to get all hot and bothered about the personal choices others make that have nothing to do with them, I'm not sure, but I suppose they do have a right. They absolutely don't have a right, however, to try and impose the wearing of a poppy upon another person, or are you trying to suggest they do? The unreasonable, intolerant and overbearing position of the two here is expecting or trying to force someone else to do something you want them to do that they don't want to, and then getting annoyed with them when they fail to conform to your demands. That's exactly what Jon Snow famously called "poppy fascism" and it's wrong; bang out of order. Let people do what they want and let them have their freedom of conscience, so long as they're not harming anyone else. And James McClean certainly wasn't harming anyone else by carrying on as normal and declining to wear a poppy, just like the many other millions in Britain on that day, including Britons themselves, who didn't have one on them. Were you wearing one yourself?Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
Well, then they're, for some inexplicable reason, assuming a particular positive or active statement from James' silence and absence of action. I don't know why they would make a logical leap to such a conclusion from ignorance and lack of knowledge of James' perspective. It's none of their business whether other people wear a poppy or not. Even if it was their business, the reasonable thing would have been to wait until becoming aware of the facts and reasons before jumping in to judge. Were they all wearing poppies themselves? Fat chance! The difference is that James was making a decision himself - a personal choice - to carry on as normal in silence, you could say, supported by his club (supposedly) and manager based on his own conscience and the fact he would have felt guilty wearing one due to the connotations it had for him and the community into which he was born, whereas these side-line authoritarians try to dictate to others and impose obligations or guilt based on what they've decided is right for others. James wasn't trying to impose anything on anyone else. Nobody has to respect their "fallen heroes". James wasn't even disrespecting them. It's they who were unreasonable in their failure to appreciate that their perspective might not be the only valid perspective on the matter.Quote:
To them it's spitting on the graves of their fallen heroes.
Millions of people don't don poppies at that time of year. Is that one big mass insult to Britain's war dead? If James had been allowed to express his reasons, there'd be absolutely no reason for anyone to be jumping to daft conclusions that he was intent on insulting those killed at war. Can you not appreciate the exceptionally uncomfortable position into which James was forced? I'm not sure what you expected of him here. Did you think he should have "just gotten over himself" and worn it? Surely you must be able to recognise that James will view those British soldiers who murdered 13 innocent civilians on Bloody Sunday (with another dying of his wounds later) as anything but heroes. Just to give you some further perspective of where I'm coming from here, this is the British Army that was also engaged in collusion with loyalist paramilitary groups throughout the Troubles. A relative of mine was gunned down by loyalists in west Tyrone in 1991 with extremely strong and compelling indications of state forces/army collusion. He was no more than a Sinn Féin electoral worker (as was proven by the absence of an IRA guard of honour, as was customary for dead volunteers, at his funeral). The British government has never properly investigated the matter nor dispensed justice despite being strongly criticised by the European Court of Human Rights in 2001 in a case brought by the family. Pat Finucane was another non-paramilitary gunned down as a result of collusion. There are still outstanding and residual issues that haven't been resolved and these incidents are real examples of what the poppy represents for most nationalists and republicans in the north of Ireland. The British Army might be heroes for a large section of Sunderland fans, but they must surely be able to recognise that that simply won't and can't be a universal perspective? I mean, how would you feel if it was demanded that you support a cause (say, the remembrance of dead IRA volunteers through the wearing of an Easter lily) that put you in an extremely uncomfortable position, and then to be further told that your refusal was tantamount to spitting on people's graves? You'd rightly think you were subject to a wildly unreasonable request and accusation.
You're right, it was a nothing story; nobody else's business whether he wore a poppy or not. So why did Sunderland make a public deal about it?Quote:
Our PR was naïve to think it would just blow over but in hindsight it was an nothing story. So he wasn't hung out to dry.
Oh, so it was rumours of his mates now and not actually James getting up to no good at these popular local night-spots? C'mon, back yourself up, man. You're coming out with all sorts of wishy-washy accusations here, but there's very little substance to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
That's called the rumour-mill of gossip.Quote:
Everyday there was some story about him.
You keep saying vague, unsubstantiated stuff like this. You make him sound like a cartoon villain who could do no right, no mater what he did. In what way was his diet poor in order to make it look like he wasn't putting in the effort?Quote:
Plus his diet was poor. So it looked like he wasn't putting the effort in. That was the main reason.
It would be unfair to generalise to that degree, but the totally unnecessary treatment of Kilbane would make me question their character (as a fanbase) to some degree. I think some club's supporters (as a whole) are just more classy than others. I'd be very reluctant to scroll online forums for character references of guys the majority probably know f*** all about anyway. As for McClean, we all know he's no angel and has made many a difficult situation for himself... all by himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
Just generally being dimwits. When Meyler broke in it was universal plaudits, predicting him to be the dominating midfielder for years to come, then saying good riddance when he was sold two years later after two horrendous seasons. The personal abuse of McClean and the complete ignorance of conflicting views on the poppy issue. Those are the two examples that stick in my mind, but any time I've been there I've been struck by how prominent the thickos are.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
GypsyBlackCat; I had a look of the Sunderland message board as you gave the impression that not one Sunderland fan has a positive or supportive word to say about James. That's not quite true at all, is it? In fact, it seems you've been really holding back here, for you actually appear to be one of the most vitriolic on there! Why didn't you tell us what you really think?: http://www.readytogo.net/smb/threads...#post-20071602
Derry City are an integral and successful member of the League of Ireland. The FAI and League of Ireland community have always welcomed Derry's participation, ever since Finn Harps helped them gain membership in 1985. And just to clarify for you, James wouldn't have an issue with anyone, say, refusing to wear an Easter lily, as you suggest he might. He's been pretty clear that he respects the views of other people and their right to hold opposing ones to his.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gypsy Black Cat
Ahh, this changes everything. Funny thing is that singing "what's it like to have a queen?" is the sort of *cringe* "banter" that we can have because they actually are welcome in the league (and it's as much their league as it is anybody else's down here, and it's certainly more theirs than it is a Sunderland fan's).
Danny you can say one thing and mean the complete opposite. I wouldn't suggest he does or doesn't but I wouldn't say that just because he came out with that statement that he actually does.
In that case, I know neither what he means nor what you mean. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Given that they joined only in 2010, isn't it a bit early to say? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Wouldn't 'were desperate for' be more accurate? The club were expelled, bankrupt and dissolved yet effectively relegated only one division before being allowed to reform immediately.Quote:
The FAI and League of Ireland community have always welcomed Derry's participation, ever since Finn Harps helped them gain membership in 1985
PS I've seen McClean and McKay play together (for NI u-21, not Wigan). They had four touches each, kicking off after each German goal and at half time...
So where will McClean go when Wigan are relegated or will we have a player plying his trade (is that phrase ever used outside of football) in the third level of English football? Trying to think of a few others who did this? Miah Dennehy perhaps or Mick Kearns? Probably missing some more obvious recent ones ?
Kevin Kilbane and Kevin Doyle would have briefly.
I think he won't be going down there anyway. Doyle's contract was probably too expensive for many Championship sides when he went down, given that he had cost Wolves £6m. McClean is probably on a more modest wage packet (maybe not that modest, in comparison) and cost a lot less and is a lot younger. Doyle isn't a prolific goalscorer either so it would have been a less obvious transfer to justify for many Championship sides. An effective Championship striker probably has to register more goals than, say, a PL striker. That wouldn't be Doyle's game. Many Championship sides will view McClean as a very effective, if not incredibly skillful, Championship winger. Lower-lying PL teams might even remember the goals he scored at Sunderland.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
Hopefully he's presented with the same options he was in January (or similar). I think he'll end up at a Championship side with decent promotion aspirations and there is likely to be a lot of them.
http://www.sunderlandecho.com/sport/...stle-1-7217418
Linked with Newcastle.
That should endear him to Sunderland's tolerant fans.
But they gave Colback such a warm reception?
I imagine the Toon Army will be flocking back in their thousands if they splash £4m on a Sunderland reject.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks
It's a joke story started in the Daily Star.
The same way that Sunderland fans flocked in their thousands to the Stadium of Light when Di Canio sold McClean and replaced him with Charis Marias and El Hadji Ba?Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
It'll be great craic seeing the Sunderland reject playing at a higher level than Sunderland next year.
Well, his last game at home v Southampton the gate was 42,000 and the next home match the gate was 44,000 so 2,000 extra people turned up:pQuote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
I know a couple of Newcastle fans and if this story is true then, in their words there will be 'Hell On'. This the type of thing that they are protesting about. If McClean isn't good enough for Sunderland then, in their words again, he isn't good enough for NUFC. McClean hasn't gone to prove himself in the last two seasons at Wigan. He wouldn't get into the SAFC team atm so why would Newcastle want him?!
I didn't make any reference to fluctuations in attendances or flocking "back" or even forwards. I said "flocking."Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
Why would Newcastle want him? This report could be codswallop but maybe Newcastle could appreciate that McClean happens to give a f*ck. The floundering and lack of application they've shown recently seemed to infer a conviction that they would ride out the season in the middle of the table. As a result of this complacency, they're being dragged down towards the relegation battle.
I don't necessarily think McClean is a fantastic winger who belongs in the PL. I do think that he has earned the right to play for a decent Championship side or be the subject of a calculated risk by a lower PL side.
Maybe the Mags think they should be aiming higher than a bog standard Championship player. They had £34million in the last summer and Ashley wouldn't invest it in the team. He just let it sit in the bank. Sunderland are doing the same by selling their top players for big money and replacing them with average Championship players and that's why this time next year SAFC will be an average Championship side. Newcastle wont see it as a player giving 100%, they'll see it as a the club saving money and lacking ambition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
I was pointing out that this story was in the Daily Star which is on the same level as the Sunday Sun. It's nothing more than to throw fuel on the fire at SJP.
I think it bears remembering that McClean managed 9 goals in 23 PL games in 2011/2012. He was a regular starter the following season for Sunderland. I'm not sure if he's a "bog-standard Championship player" or that since 2011/12 he's been found out. Why wasn't he found out after the first of those 9 goals?
Newcastle normally buy cheaper players from the French or Dutch leagues. It might be time to reassess this policy. Not that I'm saying McClean is the answer for them but he might be worth a look at by lower PL sides.
I actually think that McClean working under McClaren would be brilliant for McClean. McClaren is known to be an excellent coach and maybe excellent coaching is what McClean needs. It probably is because fitness and motivation are not lacking.
How many young players break on the scene and fade away. McClean's just another. In his second season defenders figured him out and the problem was he couldn't change his game. Wigan fans have said similar that he runs and runs but has no end product. I doubt NUFC will change their transfer policy. Going down the routine of the French and Dutch leagues is a better, cheaper way to get talent. That's probably when they'll go for McClaren. If you think about it, they paid £4.5m for Cabaye and sold him for £18m to PSG. You'll get better value for £4m on the continent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
McClean signs for Newcastle.
Plot Twist - Mike Ashley loans him to Rangers.
Yeah, because that is how football works. Imbeciles.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
They got it spot on about Pardew!;)Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
McClean sent off.
Daniel McDonnell - Aviva Soccer Writer
JAMES McClean turned 26 last week, the stage of a career where a footballer can no longer really be classed as a youngster or a player for the future.
He didn’t really have much cause for celebration from a work perspective seeing as his weekend dismissal in Wigan’s defeat to Wolves will end his contribution to a season where the 2013 FA Cup winners have fought an unsuccessful battle with relegation to League One.
It’s a staggering fall from grace for The Latics and, clearly, McClean backed the wrong horse when he jumped from Sunderland three months after Wigan’s Wembley glory, still struggling under the cloud from his understandable yet controversial stance on wearing the poppy.
But this bad news could actually be the catalyst for the player to put right his poor judgement on that occasion and pick the right move in the summer. He should have no shortage of suitors.
On a recent trip to London, this writer took in Wigan’s defeat to a Millwall side that has also spent the season sliding down the slippery slope towards the third tier.
McClean endured frustration and a fair bit of abuse from the natives, yet he stood out in a poor team as a player with a genuine desire to embrace the fight. He was deployed in a variety of positions on a rough evening and always looked as though he was capable of making something happen.
The childhood Hoops fan was keen to join Celtic in January when it temporarily appeared to be an option and it’s easy to see how he could fit into their plans; his underdog spirit in the Irish shirt came to the fore in Euro qualifiers with Germany and Poland in the last six months and the Scottish champions will have continental tests where they are a cast in a similar role.
Derby boss Steve McClaren is another admirer although he could be bound for Newcastle which might bring about the construction of a different shopping list. Either way, the Derry lad has enough supporters who can rescue him from his current plight.
Martin O’Neill certainly had no concerns when he was asked about McClean a fortnight ago, a confidence which might suggest he knows something we don’t or else a strong self-belief that his reputation has survived through his club’s difficulties.
Three years ago the winger was the biggest news story in Irish football as he took the Premier League by storm, leading to a rapturous Aviva reception on his Aviva debut which then manager Giovanni Trapattoni compared to a reception he would expect for Messi or Pele. He was even linked with Manchester United in the midst of a dream run that had to come to an end sometime.
Indeed, he experienced the other extreme when impetuous behaviour off the pitch, generally with a phone in his hands, landed him in trouble. In a recent interview with the Irish Independent, he came across as a much more grounded and mature character as he revealed just how unprepared he was for the attention which came his way.
It left the impression that he’s been grounded by his disappointment and it may well be that he looks back on his stint with Wigan as a character building exercise. His next chapter could prove to be the most interesting.