Can we just have a united world team? No place for politics in football.
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Can we just have a united world team? No place for politics in football.
Let's just all have sex.
Just had an interesting exchange of ideas with Gary McAllister on Twitter there, although I'm left slightly puzzled by some of his accusatory insinuations.
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Originally Posted by Me
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Originally Posted by Gary
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Originally Posted by Me
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Originally Posted by Gary
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Originally Posted by Me
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Originally Posted by Gary
... And so he left it at that. He's being intentionally enigmatic but suggestive at the same time. I take him to be implying that players have suffered abuse, intimidation and threats to their wellbeing for opting to play for NI/failing to declare for the FAI. Sounds outrageous and surely the authorities would have been alerted to such criminal behaviour if true. If something illegal is going on, the authorities are there to assist. No-one will advocate threats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Anyhow, players are still free agents at the end of the day and entitled to make decisions of their own volition. They must take responsibility for their own choices even if subjected to influence. Subjection to influence is an everyday aspect of life, but it doesn't absolve us of personal responsibility. "But I'm easily influenced!", never cut it in court. Most players expressly declare their satisfaction with switching besides. They often say it's a step towards realising a long-held personal dream.
Gary's one to talk anyway; he'd earlier been promoting the encouragement of players to play for NI. For him, it's pressure, abuse, manipulation and intimidation when influence spires from the nationalist community, but it's mild or benevolent encouragement when it spires from NI enthusiasts and the unionist community. What stinking double standards.
You should change his name to Gary. Some might think that he is 'mac' over on OWC.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Done. :oQuote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
Good work Danny! You certainly have tried to be fair and rational in your questions, but that paranoia which we all feel exists among many NI fans is evident in his responses. What hope is there to discuss this issue constructively with such individuals. This thread will go on forever and ever as because of such individuals and their beliefs, many NI born players will continue to associate more closely with us rather than with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
McAllister is keen to stress that "it isn't over" and that "you won't grind us down!".
McAllister wants the rules to be changed to suit his fantasy version of events. Like so many other deluded souls, he believes that the FAI have a (probably sectarian) policy which is being pursued and they owe the IFA something, considering that these players are "theirs". The effect of Irish nationality law does not sit well with him, nor does the principle of individual choice. As geysir would say, these nordies shouldn't forget who owns them.
He disingenuously talks of how they shouldn't prevent a player from representing the FAI if that is their wish, but then proceeds to lobby for and encourage an agreement, or clause which would, in effect, be a preventative measure, instigated by and for the IFA and NI fans.
Interestingly, he suggests that a possible agreement would see that the FAI did not select a player until after a period of 2 years has passed from when they last played for NI, because "2 years allows a reasonable period to pass whereby a player could then be considered to be 'inactive' within an association.". Entertaining the notion ever so briefly, 2 years appears to be quite lengthy, when you consider the span of the average career, not to mention completely arbitrary. Why not 1 year, or 6 months? No, these players must suffer for their sins.
It's all so pie-in-the-sky, but it is worrying that a man such as McAllister can have a strong influence on the thinking of a fan base and the IFA. That's not to say that FIFA will suddenly side with irrationality, but it is often the case that the squeaky wheel gets the oil.
There is a tackle by Paul at about 1 minute 50 seconds that is truly unbelievable. In a very tricky situation he wins the ball against two Italians (and actually gets a free)Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
Paul McGrath has been the best performer in the Irish jersey bar none.
I do remember Bobby Robson been asked if there was one player playing in England that he would pick and he said Paul McGrath. Who could argue with that.
A player is technically inactive internationally as soon as he is no longer part of a particular squad. When there is no current squad, nothing can be known for certain beyond speculation. There is no current Ireland squad, for example; therefore it would be futile/meaningless trying to decipher exactly which Irish players are "active" and which are "inactive" or which players for whom the association has or has no future plans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
For the sake of pointing out how arbitrary and senseless this is, how many years was Glen Whelan inactive after representing our under-21s before playing for our 'B' team and then becoming a senior team regular? More than two, I think, but he still came to be of use to the FAI after those two years had passed. If such a dichotomy was to be invoked in the sense McAllister intends, then how could Whelan have been considered "inactive" when he was still to prove of future use to the FAI? As I've said before, a player has no obligation to an association just as an association has no obligation to keep selecting any player. I don't know why this concept is so difficult to grasp.
It's a classic stunt, make the accusation of abuse and intimidation but refuse to back it up, pleading breach of confidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
McDowell, ex-minister of justice, was very good at that.
But there are plenty of morons who swallow that type of guff.
I say, Gary should go on the airwaves every morning, he singlehandedly does more damage to the IFA's cause than the rest put together.
The IFA have more sense, they hire Gerry Armstrong to press their argument in public. However, whatever ground gained for the IFA position by the reasonable and ever cheerful Gerry, vanishes when the microphone is handed over to the OWC fans' reps who go bleating on about defections, intimidation and the other country.
Can you twitter-check if Clerkin has any evidence of aggressive approach made to 16/17 years olds as he claimed on the newstalk discussion?
And then the Qatari's start paying off a load of Brazilian youths who won't make the Brazilian national team.Quote:
Originally Posted by tricky_colour
I'm happy with how it is even if those that are most vocal about perceived injustices' are the very ones that don't understand or are not willing to entertain the concept of nationality not being contiguous with place of birth or citizenship.
As quoted by Daniel O'Connell when referring to the Duke of Wellington, "The poor old Duke! What shall I say of him? To be sure he was born in Ireland, but being born in a stable does not make a man a horse."
I think McAllister does not realise the disservice his is doing to his "cause". His above exchanges with Danny, show that his standpoint on this issue is so entrenched, so militant and so closed minded to any sort of rational debate, that instead of encouraging nationalists, all he is doing is getting their backs up.
I really think that we should create some sort of group on here, equivalent to Aonisc yet without the widely misinformed opinions, whereby Danny is the spokesman for rational and cogent debate on the issue, so that when McAllister is polluting the airwaves with his BS, we have someone to put him straight on his ignorance of the facts. He currently has free reign in the media without ever really being challenged coherently on the issue.
Gmac doesn't have one of me!Quote:
Originally Posted by French Toasht
Otherwise it would start to feel like a Springfield v Shelbyville scenario. Obviously we are Springfield. I don't have any attractive cousins!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrCYX5lxVQoQuote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
No response to that yet. So, not up for debate "any time", after all, but only when it suits him. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by geysir
It's an idea alright. Naturally, he initially attempted to dismiss me as "some random blogger". I am indeed just an interested fan rather than your conventional "expert" of great repute, but I think I know what I'm talking about on this issue at least and the reality is that a legitimate point is a legitimate point no matter where its origin. Having a group or representative organisation as support might give more sense of authority and validity as that's just how people think. They'll listen less to some unknown operating independently. Mind you, my public speaking abilities are like the criminal evil twin of my writing abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by French Toasht
NB; you know McAllister personally, don't you? You should have a word, or have you tried without success? He's obviously a passionate guy but our last series of exchanges were getting embarrassing. After completely misrepresenting my position by accusing me of "defending the indefensible" and "disregarding community relations" (community relations aren't about denying players expression of their identity), he started referring to a supposed "single-identity South" (in contrast to "the cross-community North"), as if the FAI team/country of Ireland (?) is one big all-boys Catholic club. The reason we don't know what religion our players are is because one's religion is not a matter of public note in Ireland; nobody cares. Next thing, he's telling other Twitter users to ignore me before making jibes so childish and crude that he's since deleted that particular Tweet. I couldn't care less what he calls me/accuses me of but it's a poor show when the press officer/chairman of the AoNISC would rather insult, mock and blemish your character than approach things sensibly and engage in a constructive debate.
How embarrassing. Keep a record of the tweets, they'll be useful at some point, if only to highlight the absolute idiocy of the people representing NI supporters in the north.
I know a few NI supporters who are members of clubs associated with his association who also think he's seriously embarrassing. He seems a bit thick to be honest and his tweets show him to be utterly clueless & out of his depth. Although perhaps he's what their supporters want!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
I may not agree with Not Brazil or Gather Round on many issues here, but they would be a vast improvement on yer man in charge at the moment.
And where are they at the moment? Ealing Green has stopped writing his essays and the other two have stopped arguing. It is not normal to have consensus on here. Come back I miss you!Quote:
Originally Posted by co. down green
According to our Rotund 'friend', that's NB?!Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
And nothing to do with GMcA being 'fair', that's the tip of the Paranoia Iceberg...
:rolleyes:
That's why I suggested changing the, er, name.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Deary me. Gary McAllister has blocked me from following him on Twitter. I can still view his tweets and contact him, mind. He'd have to make his profile private otherwise. Maybe he doesn't realise...
Anyway, the point I've posed to him is as follows. He claims to accept the right of Irish nationals to declare for the FAI, but just so long as they haven't had any dealings with the IFA prior to this. Obviously, I also accept/welcome this right. However, he consequently accuses me of seeking to undermine the cross-community nature of IFA teams and of disregarding community relations because of this. Admittedly, one of the fundamental differences in our stances is that I'm tolerant, as per FIFA's rules, of a player switching association even if he has already played for the IFA.* This causes Gary's visage to go red with fury and, on occasion, even steam has been witnessed emanating from his ears.
Whether a player declares for the FAI from the outset or switches after having played for the IFA, however, makes no difference here in principle and should have no varying bearing on community relations that I can see, or am I overlooking something? Of course it doesn't disregard the spirit of tolerance, acceptance, recognition and choice that is fundamental to community relations anyway, but, for the sake of argument, if a player switches from the IFA to FAI after having lined out for the IFA and this apparently undermines community relations, then why would the impact upon community relations be any different in the case of the same player having initially rejected any advance from the IFA and instead declared for the FAI from the outset? Ultimately, he's still opted to play for the FAI and not the IFA.
In essence, McAllister is being a hypocrite and his logic is shown to be faulty. His postured pleas for somebody to please think of the community relations(!) are shown up to be a sham; a veneer to conceal the fact his real interest is to boss individuals who don't happen to conform to his world view about.
*Although, I wouldn't object in principle if FIFA re-introduced an age cap by which a player had to switch or if they removed the right to switch once altogether, just so long as the original choice remained.
You're on a slippery slope Danny. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
The only thing that undermines the supposed cross-community nature of the NI side (which I always found to be perhaps the quaintest notion ever proffered on OWC) is the IFA and the majority of NI fans who insist on aligning the team with the symbols of one community only.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
The claim that this issue has a bearing on community relations is fanciful indeed, if not just plain absurd. However, where my own view on the matter used to be that players from NI who wish to represent ROI in international football should do so at the earliest possible opportunity, I now believe they should make it their first port of call.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
In the current climate I feel that this is the most equitable and ethical solution, and would alleviate some of the 'unease' surrounding the issue. The latter point is of secondary significance however, as any sympathy I had for the NI position ran out some time ago.
The trouble is Danny, you're being reasonable. And if one might draw the iceberg analogy again, he's an eejit.
And given his, er, 'role', almost certainly always will be.
One can only guess he won't be joining with his brethren in a certain impending referendum?
Just be grateful though it's not our 'friend', the illustrious, er, 'moderator', from west of Doire, allegedly.
:eek:
Yeah what happened to him?Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
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Originally Posted by gastric
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/attac...1&d=1142920093Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bunk
Joined a Catholic monastic order called Brothers of the Disillusioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
Personally I disagree and I would object in principle if FIFA re-introduced the age restriction. I don't see what age has to do with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
IMO, a senior competitive cap is a definitive act of binding and demonstrates the association are treating the player seriously.
Why should age (>21) prevent an uncapped senior player from choosing the association of his 2nd nationality? Removing the age cap puts the power back with the player over such an association who were acting in their own interests, a player who never gets onto the senior squad but who had been strung along with vague promises for the benefit of the association, in case the player came good enough for them.
Removal of the age restriction by FIFA, benefits the player who is good enough to play for the other association
International football is already lopsided enough with population size & migration patterns.
That's just too bizarre Danny, you have no principles :) You need to get back to basics - the basic tenet of eligibility and build from there.Quote:
I wouldn't object in principle if FIFA …...if they removed the right to switch once altogether, just so long as the original choice remained.
You make a good point with regard to the arbitrary age cap. Just saying that if FIFA insisted its re-introduction as some sort of compromise in order to assuage any residual IFA/AoNISC gripes, I wouldn't be too fussed as they'd presumably be content with their "closure" whilst we could get on with selecting willing northern-born Irish nationals without having to listen to their accusatory moaning. Simply in the interests of extinguishing tension. In spite of that, players would still have the original choice, which is the crucial principle for me. It's not like I'll be campaigning for change any time soon though, nor do I see FIFA going back on a relatively recent change, but the IFA/AoNISC can lobby FIFA for change 'til their hearts are content.
But, as I said, you make the case as to why the current situation is preferable in principle. :)
I doubt also that FIFA would mess around with basic principles in its statutes just to appease some Irish problem. How they would approach would be same as what they have done in the past, invited both associations to work out an internal agreement, which would have been added to the statutes as an annex.
I don't mind the bluster of the owc. As you have found with Gary Mc, refusing to engage in a rational debate by just closing the ears followed by raising the voice louder and louder, are just the usual political hissy fit tactics of loyalists to get their way. Give ice cream to the screaming kid, just so you can have some peace of mind? :) Imo, that debate has first to be settled inside the 6 counties, you can't just slither away because you want some peace of mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Young footballers have their fundamental rights as well to chose between the FAI/ IFA, without the blackmail to affect that choice - 'if you don't choose us now, you will forever be cast out'.
Joe Brolly contributes his thoughts to Michael O'Neill's rhetoric: http://www.derryjournal.com/sport/br...oint_1_3439417
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Michael has been publicly trying to recruit Northern Irish Catholics who have previously rejected the notion of playing for the ‘North.’ The fundamental problem he has is that this would require them to renounce their sense of identity. Everton’s Shane Duffy, for example, was brought up in Derry City and played Gaelic football for Doire Colmcille. He is an Irishman, not a Northerner. Which is why he has repeatedly stated he will never play for Northern Ireland.
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The reality is that the two cultures remain firmly segregated.
Nigel Worthington, during his tenure as Northern Ireland manager, described the notion of a citizen from the ‘north’ declaring for the ‘south’ as ‘ludicrous’ and ‘a loophole.’
Graham Luney, an influential journalist who writes for the largely protestant Belfast Telegraph wrote: ‘We cannot afford to carry passengers who are dreaming of wearing the colours of another national team. Let players chase other countries if they want to.’
His newspaper routinely refers to the ‘Londonderry-born McClean’ and the ‘Londonderry-born Duffy!’
Michael O’Neill’s crusade is futile. Some follow the green, white and gold. Some the red, white and blue.
It is far more than a flag.
You'd think that he'd know the colours of his own national flag.
I assume it's in reference to the song. And kind of fitting since the subject of the article concerns the continued division of green from orange in Ireland.
Is this true?Quote:
Until the new Millennium, you could buy the CD in the Windsor Park shop.
Fixed. ;)Quote:
Until the new Millennium, you can buy the CD in the Windsor Park shop.
'IFA deny stalling McClean's switch to Republic': http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sp...-16105904.html
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...Quote:
Originally Posted by The Belfast Telegraph
I don't know what it is but something tells me that this wasn't ALL FIFA's fault.
Of course, the article neglects to mention the impact that the IFA's decision to take Kearns to Switzerland had on the process. No player's switch was processed during that period. Shane Duffy, for example, was soon cleared after the decision and was called up to the Under 19s in the September of 2010.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
'Freudian' slip, surely...Quote:
"Michael O’Neill’s crusade is futile. Some follow the green, white and gold. Some the red, white and blue."
Probably brought to you by the same people who call the North, 'Ulster'?
:rolleyes:
Interesting piece on the issue of non-Jewish players representing Israel from the January 2012 edition of 'When Saturday Comes' (originally posted by 'EalingGreen' on OWC):
http://i1107.photobucket.com/albums/...20_00000-1.jpg
He's ALIVE!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible