Lisbon Treaty

"One more strike and you're out of the EU", which is classic dirty tactics from the federalists.

The bullying didn't work, the branding didn't work, so they'll try threatening next time. It's also 100% false, and the point will be highlighted to ease No voters concerns.

Whatever Merkel and Sarkosy say, Cowen won't be THAT stupid to force us into another referendum unless he's certain he'll win it. That will require a massive swing in the polls, which is unlikely anytime soon.

"One more strike and Cowen's no longer PM" is a favourable counter measure. :)

Whether we are in Lisbon or outside of it the biggest decisions to affect the Irish economy will still be made by the EU - depends how much input we have.

As the article I linked to said "who exactly are we neutral from" given that we a small open economy almost completely dependent on foreign multinationals.

It would also be a shame if Ireland had to opt out of EU peace keeping missions & observation forces due to No vote.

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Originally Posted by pete

Whether we are in Lisbon or outside of it the biggest decisions to affect the Irish economy will still be made by the EU.

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What are these decisions?? :confused: The sovereignty of the state is more important than the economy. We've had 10 years of boom, yet many people in Ireland haven't seen many benefits of it.

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As the article I linked to said "who exactly are we neutral from" given that we a small open economy almost completely dependent on foreign multinationals.

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Switzerland is a small open economy, and neutral as well. Most of the biggest multinational corporations have bases there.

The neutrality aspect, is solely militarily based. It has little impact on firms investing here.

With the banks in meltdown, domestic job losses piling up, the economy in chaos, and the health service in it's latest crisis, Biffo is off to Paris today, to remind Napoleon just what No means.

Well, that's what leaders do. Our PM however is off to feed him the results of the investigation, aka "national survey" carried out at considerable expense during the summer, which 5 minutes research on the internet could have told anyone.

In the meantime, Croatian PM Sanodar is arriving here to meet Biffo next week, to enquire why his country should be excluded from the EU, on the orders of France and Germany, after the June result here.

The answer is quite simple. Ireland's referendum outcome does not affect other countries' applications to join the EU. The Nice Treaty caters for further EU enlargement. Stop panicking.

So the No side said Lisbon wasn't needed as Europe's decision making structure worked fine as it was, thanks very much.......

I think the last fortnight has completely debunked that notion.

The financial crisis has also knocked Declan Ganley's confused anwers on Libertas funding off the front pages. He's tied himself up in knots and its become clear that the "thousands of donors" may not actually exist.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

The financial crisis has also knocked Declan Ganley's confused anwers on Libertas funding off the front pages. He's tied himself up in knots and its become clear that the "thousands of donors" may not actually exist.

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What is the limit for non-declared personal donations?

I really cannot see how he will be able to explain where his donations came from.

I saw bit of Late Late replay where I think he said he used 800k of which he loaned 200k himself. Maybe I wrong with those numbers. Pat Kenny tried to challenge those numbers without much success. Not sure why he was on the show but he did a good presentation of the Irish kid done good.

Libertas will never get a UEFA license if that loan is to be repaid

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Libertas will never get a UEFA license if that loan is to be repaid

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Did Ganley not sign a letter of guarantee?

So Libertas are really saying NO to the EUfa :eek:

The key issues seem to be that
1) Ganley at all times previously referred to the bulk of donations coming from "thousands of Irish individual donors", but under pressure now says a significant amount came from a loan from him
2) a loan, rather than a donation, is not subject to the same funding regulations as long as it is likely to be repaid. Ganley under pressure confirmed there had been no repayments as of yet, there was no schedule of repayments and he was extremely vague on how Libertas will pay him back.

If it was viewed as a donation, then I understand he would be liable for prosecution.

The unfortunate thing here is that this is, in large part, the doing of the larger parties on the Yes side as they have no interest in a more transparent funding regime because of their own questionable fund raising activities.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

So the No side said Lisbon wasn't needed as Europe's decision making structure worked fine as it was, thanks very much.......

I think the last fortnight has completely debunked that notion.

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:D:D

Only a couple of days ago, the Commissioners were busy poking their nose into the financial health of our independent sovreign state, questioning how we could solve our banking crisis, without their consultation.:rolleyes:

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The financial crisis has also knocked Declan Ganley's confused anwers on Libertas funding off the front pages. He's tied himself up in knots and its become clear that the "thousands of donors" may not actually exist.

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The Yes side are in no position to enquire into Ganley's campaign, given how they used the media and interest groups into backing, and the TD's using the full financial muscle of the state into funding their failed campaign.

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Originally Posted by mypost

:D:D

Only a couple of days ago, the Commissioners were busy poking their nose into the financial health of our independent sovreign state, questioning how we could solve our banking crisis, without their consultation.:rolleyes:

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Since we signed up, a long time ago, to European Competitions Directives, then its got nothing to do with "poking their noses in".

Europe failed to react to the banking crisis in a timely manner because of the fragmented, national interest-driven and pathetically slow nature of the current decision making framework.

I don't care how many times you try to work the word "sovereign" into your response (when all else fails, plead to our nationalist heart strings?), but your argument at the time of the vote was that the current structure works fine and now you look like a chump.

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Originally Posted by mypost

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The Yes side are in no position to enquire into Ganley's campaign, given how they used the media and interest groups into backing, and the TD's using the full financial muscle of the state into funding their failed campaign.

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So one bad cancels out another. Fantastic rhetoric.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Since we signed up, a long time ago, to European Competitions Directives, then its got nothing to do with "poking their noses in".

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Now, there's other countries doing it, including the Germans. Wonder what Merkel will tell any other countries that question her right to determine what's best for her country?

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Europe failed to react to the banking crisis in a timely manner because of the...pathetically slow nature of the current decision making framework.

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That's democracy. By it's nature, it is slow.

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So one bad cancels out another. Fantastic rhetoric.

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True, and makes the federalists look hypocrites for questioning Ganley's campaign at all, when they're just as crafty at funding campaigns.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

2) a loan, rather than a donation, is not subject to the same funding regulations as long as it is likely to be repaid. Ganley under pressure confirmed there had been no repayments as of yet, there was no schedule of repayments and he was extremely vague on how Libertas will pay him back

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Declan Galney is the new Bertie.

The US was founded in a revolt against a distant and autocratic regime. In consequence, its polity developed according to what we might call Jeffersonian principles: the idea that power should be diffused and that government officials, wherever possible, should be elected.

Most European constitutions, by contrast, were drawn up after the second world war.

Their authors believed that democracy had led to fascism, and that the ballot box needed to be tempered by a class of sober functionaries who were invulnerable to public opinion.

The difference between the American and European approaches can be inferred from their foundational charters. The US Constitution, including all 27 amendments, is 7,600 words long, and is mainly preoccupied with the rights of the individual. The Lisbon Treaty contains 76,000 words and is chiefly concerned with the powers of the state. The American Constitution begins, 'We, the people. . . '; the Treaty of Rome begins, 'His Majesty the King of the Belgians. . . ' Americans pride themselves on having got away from titles and deference. American political culture produced The West Wing, predicated on the idea that even the politicians you disagree with are patriots. Britain's produced Yes, Minister and The Thick of It, predicated on the idea that all MPs are petty, jobbing crooks.

Congressmen would be every bit as stuck up as MEPs if they were protected by party lists. It's just that party lists are unthinkable in a system where everyone from the sanitation officer to the DA is elected, where power is localised, and where politicians are selected through open primaries.

Bagehot, Dicey and Erskine May agreed that, while foreigners might depend on written constitutions and supreme courts, we relied on ourselves: that is, we elected MPs to a sovereign body and trusted it to defend our birthright. The trouble is that that model has long since ceased to apply.

In The Plan: Twelve Months To Renew Britain, we set out a programme to restore purpose to the ballot, dignity to the legislature and liberty to the individual. Our proposals include local and national referendums; a transfer of the powers enjoyed by the Prime Minister under crown prerogative to parliament; open hearings to appoint heads of executive agencies, ambassadors and senior judges; withdrawal from the European Convention.

We want a wholesale transfer of power from appointed officials to elected representatives: from Brussels to Westminster, from Whitehall to councils, from the state to the citizen.

Does this amount to an Americanisation of British politics? Yes and no. It's true that many of the things we want exist across the Atlantic -- referendums, elected sheriffs, a local sales tax, open primaries. But the American revolutionaries took their inspiration from English political thought. They have preserved a model of representative democracy that the mother country has lost. The idea that lawmakers should be accountable to the rest of the country was perhaps Britain's greatest gift to mankind.

Brooding over our quango state is the mother quango, the unelected European Commission, which now generates an almost unbelievable 84 per cent of the legislation in the member nations. Britain cannot approach Jeffersonian democracy as long as it is subject to the will of an unaccountable apparat.

We cannot decentralise power within the UK while centralising it in the EU. We cannot take decisions more closely to the people if they are being taken in Brussels.

The only European country to approximate our model is Switzerland, where localism and direct democracy serve to keep the government small, the country rich and the people free. It is no coincidence that the Swiss keep rejecting the EU: they know that membership is incompatible with dispersed democracy.

Full Version here: http://www.istockanalyst.com/article...d_2656894.html

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Originally Posted by mypost

The Yes side are in no position to enquire into Ganley's campaign, given how they used the media and interest groups into backing, and the TD's using the full financial muscle of the state into funding their failed campaign.

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The state used the media? :confused:

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Originally Posted by mypost

Now, there's other countries doing it, including the Germans. Wonder what Merkel will tell any other countries that question her right to determine what's best for her country?
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We are part of the European Monetary Union. (i.e Euro) Seems logical that solution should be done at European level.

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Originally Posted by mypost

The US Constitution, including all 27 amendments, is 7,600 words long, and is mainly preoccupied with the rights of the individual. The Lisbon Treaty contains 76,000 words and is chiefly concerned with the powers of the state.

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The EU does not have a Constitution. It also has 27 "sovereign states" & more official languages than I can name.

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Originally Posted by pete

We are part of the European Monetary Union. (i.e Euro) Seems logical that solution should be done at European level.

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So what's the solution for those that aren't, if it's taken at EU level?

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The EU does not have a Constitution.

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Thanks to 800k+ brave voters here.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4926437.ece

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...6-7583,00.html

"the EU will respect the country’s sovereignty and demands, while telling the Irish people how the other 495m Europeans are watching them and “will be really angry” if the answer is no again".

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4969353.ece

When Irish pubs and embassies across Europe, are boycotted/vandalised by the "really angry 495m Europeans", I'll believe it.

Gov.ie haven't a hope of pulling off another Nice after that budget, not in the short term anyway. It's the one good thing that came out of it. They'll have to stall a bit more.

adam