Caoimhín Kelleher GK Brentford b.1998

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Originally Posted by mypost

Attendances and revenue are irrelevant. Nobody wants to be in that league. They're prepared to bankrupt themselves and sack as many coaches if needs be, to get the hell out of it asap and escape it's punishing 46 game long slog. Ipswich have spent 20 years trying to get out of it, with no success. God knows how many managers have been fired in that quest.

This year's bunch who got promoted have been found totally out of their depth already. One of them has lost 8-0 at home. That's not "my reality", (whatever that means) that is fact. Our No. 1 has already seen his team lose a game 5-0. That is not my reality, that's stone cold fact. He might be playing every week, but it's not someone full of confidence, ready to face the best in the world at international level.

Kelleher has played enough games by now for us to know what he's capable of. If anyone doesn't know, it's because they don't want to know, which unfortunately is most people.

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So if attendances & revenue, plus most clubs there being able to attract & afford international players isn't relevant, would you enlighten me to what is ? Apart from your opinion, obviously. Surely you have some criteria other than a frothing at the mouth weird disdain for it ?

By the way Ipswich were in League One since 2018 / 19. They weren't even in that division, you know... the pub one you know so much about.

Promoted teams sometimes struggle do they - is that all you've got ? Promoted teams do that the world over. Promoted teams also stabilise, and do fine there but you stick to the tiny seam of knowledge you do have and build your whole opinion around that & ignore anything which challenges it. Liverpool were hammered 7 - 2 by Aston Villa while defending their own title in 2020, its football, it happens, its not definitive of anything other than that one game. Man United lost 7 - 0 to Liverpool last season. So what is your point ?

Kelleher has played fu ck all

I think this may well be English club loyalties informing ( badly ) an opinion on a player in an Irish national team forum, which is absolutely tragic to be honest. But to do it in defence of a manager slated by his detractors for never having managed at a high level, by calling the Championship a pub league & all the while trotting around in a Rovers avatar & expect to be taken seriously is hilarious man.

Now answer me, why is it a pub league ?
( & because you like to think to isn't a valid answer )

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Originally Posted by ColourfulPeanut

Has there ever been a top keeper who played less than 40 men's football matches at 25 and gone on to be a success? I would guess most famous #2 keepers had a stint playing on loan before getting comfy on the bench.

I'm trying to think of one but none come to mind. Steve Harper was one I thought of, who sat behind Given a large chunk of his career despite being highly rated. Even he had a year multiple loans including a year in Division 1 by the time he was 22.

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Andries Noppert? Even now at 29, he has played a total of 69 competitive games. 5 of those were at the World Cup for Holland last year.

It's a fairly narrow definition of "success", granted. There may be others but he's the one that jumped to mind

Harper & Noppert both good calls.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

But, to counter this, haven't there always been international goalkeepers who have accumulated lots of caps and have always been solid while never being club number 1? I can't think of any right now but I think Northern Ireland has had some, and probably some of the Nordic teams. Wales?

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This is an important point -

Goalkeepers are not like outfield players - they can develop without playing regularly - and they can be damned good goalkeepers without ever being a club number 1.

Most recent that comes to mind is Danny Ward - who played one PL game for Leicester, while playing something close to 20 times for Wales. Alex Manninger was a back-up at a load of clubs while playing for Austria. Tony Sylva only played a handful of games for Monaco over a 10/11 year stretch but was first-choice for Senegal during that stretch. I am sure there are many others.

Darren Randolph started for Ireland while he was a reserve at West Ham.

Saying that - I think it would be better for Kelleher to move to a different club - I think he will always be regarded as a nearly keeper if he doesn't. The problem is that he is contracted to Liverpool until 2026 and I can't see a PL club (or equivalent) forking our £25m+ for him that Liverpool would expect when he has played so few first team games.

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Originally Posted by mypost

Attendances and revenue are irrelevant. Nobody wants to be in that league. They're prepared to bankrupt themselves and sack as many coaches if needs be, to get the hell out of it asap and escape it's punishing 46 game long slog. Ipswich have spent 20 years trying to get out of it, with no success. God knows how many managers have been fired in that quest.

This year's bunch who got promoted have been found totally out of their depth already. One of them has lost 8-0 at home. That's not "my reality", (whatever that means) that is fact. Our No. 1 has already seen his team lose a game 5-0. That is not my reality, that's stone cold fact. He might be playing every week, but it's not someone full of confidence, ready to face the best in the world at international level.

Kelleher has played enough games by now for us to know what he's capable of. If anyone doesn't know, it's because they don't want to know, which unfortunately is most people.

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With all due respect - the reason why teams want to get out of the Championship is to get their hands on the £120m+ a year that being in the PL brings into a club.

You are talking about Southampton losing 5-0 to Sunderland - a few days ago Brighton, currently 6th in the PL, were hammered 6-1 by Villa (and they are not the defensive shambles that Southampton have been for more than a year now).

Now - Kelleher is a damned good goalkeeper - as is Bazunu. Both of them could potentially be top PL keepers before they are finished. We are damned lucky to have keepers of that quality. Hell Mark Travers would have been first choice for Ireland over most of the last 100 years. David Forde spent a lot of his time at Millwall playing in League 1 - Wayne Henderson played his only 6 times for Ireland in 2006-7 while in League 1 - Mick Kearns spent 10 years as Ireland no.1 while playing at Walsall (and never let Ireland down in those years) - Alan Kelly sr spent his entire career playing in the old Division 2 and his son did the same and between them they cranked up over 80 caps for Ireland (at a time when games were few and far between) - Gerry Peyton spent his career in the old Div 2 (and occasionally Div 3) while playing 33 times for Ireland. Hell - even Packie Bonnar was playing in Scotland and spending most of his career playing second fiddle to Rangers in a division that these days is made up of players who can't get into League One teams (Bonner won 4 titles in a 20 year stretch - and yes I know the standard was a bit higher then).

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

Now - Kelleher is a damned good goalkeeper - as is Bazunu. Both of them could potentially be top PL keepers before they are finished. We are damned lucky to have keepers of that quality. Hell Mark Travers would have been first choice for Ireland over most of the last 100 years.

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Spot on.

Im not sure Kelleher is a damned good goalkeeper. There are times Ive seen him that I thought things he does would concern me. Im quite sure how to describe what I mean properly, but he has a habit of standing straight up, with his arms hanging by his side rather than looking like hes on his toes and arms up and ready when ball in around the box. He looks too relaxed if that makes any sense at all...

My point is more that I dont know hes a good keeper, I thought he had great potential, but has he developed in the last 4 years and gotten better? We dont really know because the sample size of games is so small.

Maybe that is where we differ slightly. I just dont think he is proven enough to displace Bazunu with the latter with over 5x the experience of CK and a current starter at a high level. I do think that CK seems to be a good keeper and it is true, to some degree, that he wouldn't be the back up keeper for a team like Liverpool if he was terrible. You also have to place some faith in the comments that come from his manager and coaches. He has to move and start somewhere but i think we can be confident he is good and can get better with more experience.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

Maybe that is where we differ slightly. I just dont think he is proven enough to displace Bazunu with the latter with over 5x the experience of CK and a current starter at a high level. I do think that CK seems to be a good keeper and it is true, to some degree, that he wouldn't be the back up keeper for a team like Liverpool if he was terrible. You also have to place some faith in the comments that come from his manager and coaches. He has to move and start somewhere but i think we can be confident he is good and can get better with more experience.

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Im not trying to say hes bad or isnt a good keeper, just that we cant be sure that he is good. Yes hes shown flashes of good, but some flashes of not so good too. Comments from his manager are fine, but his manager at Liverpool would never consider him as a contender for 1st choice while Allison is there so nice comments can just be placating a lad glued to the bench.

I want him to be good, I want him to be the best keeper we've ever had... but I want him to start playing football before its time for him to consider retirement too!

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

Im not trying to say hes bad or isnt a good keeper, just that we cant be sure that he is good. Yes hes shown flashes of good, but some flashes of not so good too.

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isn't that the case with Bazunu and Travers too? Bazunu had moments against France that worried me, dropping balls that seemed simple handling situations. Then the penalty against the Dutch. He was left in an unenviable position but giving away a penalty, there's always a degree of culpability from the player responsible. Meanwhile his club situation and performances there are worrying.

Equally Travers, his one important Ireland performance, he came up very short against Serbia and was at fault for multiple goals. His performances in the premier league were really disappointing (like Bazunu). But he seems comfortable at championship level.

So, in my eyes, all three have doubts at international level. Equally, all three have the ability to make stunning, game-winning saves (probably most recently demonstrated by Kelleher against LASK).

I would suspect, if you asked all premier league and championship managers to rank the top 4 goalkeepers, right now, you'd end up with:

1) Kelleher
2) Bazunu
3) Travers
4) O'Leary

I suppose we've seen more good and bad of Bazunu and Travers because of the amount played.

Look, I think we'll go around in circles on this one and everyone has their opinions, but for me its not good enough that a guy whos 25 next month has played less club than years hes been alive, and if he wants to be taken seriously as a footballer that has to change.

I seen today that the 2030 WC is going to be spread out across the world. Kelleher will be 32 for it, are we still going to be having the debate that he should be Irelands number 1 but has only about 50 club games?

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

We've just never seen Kelleher be able to do any of the above because hes never even been on loan for 1 season, so we just dont know. He does seem to pick up quite a few injuries for a back up keeper too, so I do wonder if hes a little fragile physically.

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Bit odd quoting myself here.... but this point is relevant today.

Twelve stitches in his knee joint after a training ground injury.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/spor...njury-27849356

I know it sounds weird but there’s really been a lot of bad luck involved.


Between August 19 and October 20, Kelleher is 3rd choice. He plays 4 games as third choice. Adrian, the second choice, plays 23 games in that time due to 2 injuries to Alisson.


Somewhere between October and December, he becomes second choice (neither play in November).


Since then, he’s played 19 games - he would have played probably 27 if it weren’t for badly timed injuries and covid. He’s been fit for 86% of Liverpool games since then but he only played in 70% of games that he was likely to start.


Unlucky 1) Both Alisson and Adrian are injured when covid stops football. Kelleher would have played the last 9 premier league games, had football not been delayed by 4 months.


Unlucky 2) Alisson’s two major injuries are in the season when he’s third choice. Had they come in 21/22 where Kelleher was entirely fit, he’d have played 23 games that season, rather than the 5 he played. Since then, Alisson has been very healthy.


Unlucky 3) Bad timing injuries have cost him 8 games e.g. what happened now, getting injured Wednesday, rather than on Friday - which wouldn’t have cost him any club games. (Given his overall injury record, you'd expect 4 games missed).


Unlucky 4) Those badly timed injuries have also affected him internationally. Kelleher was fit but behind Randolph for the first 8 games of Kenny’s reign. Randolph got an injury in March 2021, the game that Travers cost us against Serbia, Kelleher would have started it, if not for an abdominal tear. Travers poor performance then allowed Bazunu to come in and play against Luxembourg 3 days later. Which allowed a third division keeper to cement his place ahead of Kelleher, Randolph and Travers. But if Kelleher is fit in that window, he very likely is first choice throughout 2021 and 2022.


Unlucky 5) Bazunu is injured in March 2022 and Kelleher takes the gloves. He plays 6 games in a row between March and June (selected ahead of Bazunu in June), and is essentially first choice, and playing pretty well. During that June camp, he picks up an injury which isn’t detected till Liverpool return for pre-season, he then needs to rehab it and misses the September 2022 camp, where Bazunu regains the jersey. Bazunu keeps it till now.


Unlucky 6) He was supposed to play 3 weeks in a row before this camp - and that combined with Bazunu’s form, meant there was a decent chance he would have started for Ireland. If you include these two games coming up, he’s only been unavailable for 7 games of 50 games since his first call up (again available for 86%) and yet those 7 games have probably ended up costing him 17 caps in total.

Just for reference, by contrast, to Kelleher's 86% availability at both club and international level, Bazunu, since he started playing is fit 94% of the time at club level and 82% at international level (will move to 83% if he’s fit for both upcoming games)

If I don't want a part time keeper I defo don't want a part time unlucky keeper ;)

Bar Allison ~ ~ Liverpool have been a bit of mixed bag re-goalkeepers until you go back to Bruce Grobbelaar and Ray Clemence ~ ~ and ~ ~ Grobbelaar could have his moments as well.

Liverpool are a funny club re goalkeepers ~ ~ Have a look at all of their goal keepers back as far as Grobbelaar and Clemence.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fc-l...onik/verein/31

86% availabilty when he's not playing competitive football matches isn't great really. He's picking up injuries when he doesn't even participate in the most physical and dangerous part of football, actual matches.

Why does the conversation always revolve around Kelleher and Bazunu. From what I have seen I think there is a fairly good argument that Travers is better than Bazunu right now. While it hard to bench mark Kelleher he has a hell of a lot more game time. Bazunu arguably has the most potential of the three I have watched enough football to know that doesn't always translate. The idea that Bazunu automatic number 1 for Ireland is not one I subscribe to.

I think the bad Serbia performance makes Travers easier to dismiss than he maybe deserves. I don't know that Bazunu has ever played as badly as that for us in quite a lot of caps now. Travers is also the one of the three least comfortable with the ball at his feet, which is important for Kenny's approach. That said, he could play himself into contention yet.