I reckon we're just not Barry's cup of tea...
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I reckon we're just not Barry's cup of tea...
I think we are at the stage where the When has become more important than the Who.
England is September 7th. You would have to believe that a new manager will have to be in place at the very latest a month before that game. That gives us about 8 weeks for them to appoint someone. Its pretty clear that whoever it is wont be met with universal approval, but they will need time to prepare. If its O'Shea then obviously he knows the players, but if its an outsider like Bilic for example hed need plenty of time to watch video of the players etc before meeting up with them so he actually knows whats available to him.
Time is getting short. Tick Tock Mr Canham
Greece are in a somewhat similar situation to us (though not for as long). Interim coach in charge, nations league coming up. I assume they are offering around the same as we are though they have the advantage of a much stronger domestic league and a host of managers both Greek and foreign with experience of that league.
Interestingly, seems they were most recently linked to Fernando Santos, their former coach. He has just taken over Azerbaijan. He has also managed Portugal of course and Poland. Was he considered for the role? Presumably the Azeris were able to offer a fat salary though...
I do agree with you on the midfield part although I think McGinn would be far more beneficial to us than McTominey would be (I know McGinn is highly rated but crazily enough I still think he's one of the more underrated players in the PL)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungle
What I will say with Scotland though is as good as their midfield looks on paper when you actually watch them play I dont even think their midfield actually performs that well , I would actually argue its how their team perform's as a collective that has made them as good as they are rather than anything they are doing in midfield...I mean we even saw against us their midfield wasnt doing as much damage as we suspect it would do.
The fact they are performing well as a collective makes how bad we look even more puzzling given how much better we are in Goal, defence and even up front (I mean, for heavens sake, their striker is Lyndon f**king Dykes!).
I do agree though on you're last point, if you had McGinn in our midfield combined with a Kelleher/Bazunu in goal, a defence of Collins & O'Brien and then have an inform Ferguson up front combined with a decent manager I actually think we would not only qualify for the European Championship's but even go into it with some optimism of our chances (not winning of course but maybe getting to a QF or something like that). That is actually really good spine when you look at it man for man but granted I do suspect our lack of experience would be a hinderance. I still really hope Andrew Moran can come through soon, I feel he might be the missing link in this Irish team and possible Lawal to give us abit of size in the middle.
In 2016, we had Glenn Whelan and James McCarthy. Both were solid defensive midfielders who, despite an infuriating tendency to dawdle on the ball, ignore forward options, and pass it back to the goalkeeper ad nauseum, could close people down, maintain the shape of the midfield, get their bodies in the way of long-range shots, block the angles for opponents to pass through, and protect their back four. They played that role for Stoke and Everton in the EPL for many years. We also had David Meyler, who was a big, aggressive unit who could win his 50-50s and break up the play. We don't have anyone playing at that level, with that kind of positional nous, physicality and discipline, at the moment. Cullen and Smallbone are tidy little playmakers at upper Championship level in teams that look to dominate possession; they're not capable of offering protection to the back four/five in the more direct, counter-attacking game that we need to revert to.Quote:
Originally Posted by CSAD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supreme feet
Any excuse to deflect from how bad a job the manager is doing ey. It's worth noting in 2019 when McCarthy wasn't playing and Whelan was a 35 year old playing in the championship we were still nowhere near as bad defensively as we are now with bear in mind an inferior defence and GK situation as well. When are we going to stop making excuses for the management to accept mediocrity and instead hold them accountable for the terrible job they are doing, once we do that maybe things will start improving.
Worth noting Cullen was playing in PL last season in that role but I guess that doesn't suit the narrative, the reason we think of him as a nice little championship midfielder is because we have a tendency of making any player that comes into camp look a worse player than they do for their club.
No excuses for the management at all. It's been appalling for a few years now.
But whoever takes over will have to work around the undeniable fact that we're missing a certain type of player to make the team function. Even in 2019, Mick played Hourihane and Hendrick alongside Whelan, meaning we had no #10 to create anything; we were just sacrificing the final third of the pitch, leaving McGoldrick isolated, and playing by numbers. Not hard to be defensively sound when you have 10 men behind the ball at all times, and yes, maybe we have to go back to that for a while. It's also worth noting that Whelan played surprisingly well in that campaign, especially at home to Denmark.
Trying to build a competitive, pragmatic midfield without proper, aggressive, disciplined, physical specimens is like trying to play a long-ball game with a 5'7 striker. Josh Cullen isn't that player.
You say no excuses but then proceed to make more excuses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supreme feet
Supreme, there's enough in the side for any half decent manager to make something of if they are worth their salt. The fact we have a 2 CB's and a GK who's combined value is probably around 60M euro and a CF worth over 50-60M yet we play like a minnow is a f**king travesty, how is that even possible?
Yes Whelan did well that campaign to be fair... I miss those days, the days a manager was able to actually get the best out of the players at his disposal...something we've seemingly given up on nowadays, now we are happy to hire unqualified managers and plod along and get as little out of the players as possible....if the current players played any worse they'd just leave the field and allow the opposition shoot the ball into an empty net for 90 minutes...thats how bad a job our recent appointments have done.
Here's a wild theory, lets actually play to our players strengths...I know that's an alien term to the likes of Kenny and O'Shea but lets give it a go...we might actually get somewhere then.
I think we both agree that it's inexcusably bad, and that we need change (I wouldn't be averse to Hughton now)... but I just don't see how this midfield gets fixed, unless the likes of Killian Phillips, Baba Adeeko and Bosun Lawal really level up in the next year or so. I really liked the look of Romeo Akachukwu for the underage teams, but I haven't heard anything about him for a while.
Smallbone and Cullen's strengths are in looking for the ball, receiving it under pressure and passing it on; Smallbone particularly does his best work in the final third. They're brave in that sense, and I admire how they take risks in possession, but they've shown themselves to be error prone and a bit rash. Knight is a Duracell bunny who will run and run, but he's not a player to protect a back four. Molumby is a trier, but utterly headless. Azaz is an out-and-out #10. Then we're down to McGrath and Sykes.
I don't want O'Shea and I want us to be more pragmatic.
Our traditional strengths are in muscle, athleticism, doggedness, and putting the fear of God into opponents/annoying the shíte out of them by not letting them play.
But looking at our current midfield options, I don't see how we can do that.
It literally couldn't be any worse, we either stay as bad as we are now or get better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supreme feet
We have a good back 4 and keeper so I think the need for a brilliant midfielder at protecting the back 4 is a little overstated, like I've said previously considering we cant even defend properly with the defence we have doesnt fill me with confidence that the likes of O'Shea will be able to fix the area's of the team that actually need fixing.
If we are looking at an ideal one, if all goes well I'd like to see Lawal be looked at provided he gets into the Celtic side, he has all the attributes we need in midfield...I just cant wait for O'Shea to make him look like a pub player as well now.
When we lost 5-2 to Cyprus in 2006, our back four was Finnan, Dunne, O'Brien and O'Shea. Individually, an excellent back four, Champions League level. But we were torn apart because Kilbane and Stephen Ireland were playing out of position ahead of them and offered no protection. You defend as a team, and the midfield is integral to that. Carsley came into the team after that, and even under Staunton's appalling management, we went on a decent unbeaten run. A good holding midfielder makes a huge difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by CSAD
they're both fecking critical!! But the former didnt have to be! In fact, i thought i saw a quote from Dara O'Shea earlier pointing out how difficult it would be for a new manager stepping straight into the September game against England with never having had a squad together before. Its absolutely unforgivable that we have put ourselves in this position. A complete and utter laughing stock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
The issue has always been midfield. We haven’t had a really good creative midfielder since Wes and we haven’t had a really good pure midfielder since Roy. It’s why losing Declan and Jack was such a travesty.
I haven’t seen a midfielder that we have that I’d be convinced is good enough to bridge the gap in the way we need. Josh Cullen is a good player but he won’t carry a team. The only thing we can be is patient. But in midfield in particular, the really promising lads haven’t really delivered on their potential. Jayson Molumby had a chance around 2019, but he regressed on the ball at West Brom and he’s become ultimately a more limited footballer than he might have been. All those semi-promising deep midfielders from the last Euros, none of them have made it at championship level. Coventry, Kilkenny, Johansson, Connell - all had something to like about them - and they maybe could one day become senior internationals, but the ceiling is probably Conor Hourihane type players, which doesn’t bring us any closer to becoming a force in European football.
I suppose the truth is you never know. The counter argument to those guys stalling is the progress that Jake O’Brien has made over the last 18 months, which is absolutely phenomenal, way above what you could expect. So maybe Phillips or Lawal or Adeeko or whoever makes an equally impressive jump.
Philips and Lawal are the semi-proven, high ceiling candidates alright. Both mobile and physical specimens. Lawal might have more on the ball than Phillips from what I’ve seen of both.
I suppose you’d have to take a look at Collins in the role too at some point if things became desperate enough. We have a lot of strength in depth at CB and if we were to go four at the back as many want to, there’s even more excess there with Collins seemingly capable of moving into midfield.
We’ve missed some opportunities to try out some of the above with this window. Huge concerns about full back for me. All my eggs are in the Murphy, Curtis, Adaramola and Garcia-Mac basket…all hope v. reality I think too. I really really don’t rate Festy.
If Lawal can make the step up he could change a lot. I like Smallbone. I think hes eager to get on the ball in a way we've been missing for a while, but he needs help. The more I think of just him and Cullen expected to compete against Portugal its just maddening.
I do think that we have good players defensively and we have good improving forwards, if we can be just adequate in midfield we can do well. I still think Ferguson is special. I know the shine has been taken away due to injury hit 2nd half of season but if he becomes the goalscorer that hes capable of being that papers over a lot of cracks.
Smallbone and Cullen are decent, upper end Championship or lower end Premiership players but they've just been asked to do too much against better players - and, simply, more players - by O'Shea. Ridiculous really.
A quite decent side would be the following
Kelleher
Coleman O'Brien Collins Scales
Cullen Knight Smallbone
Ogbene Ferguson Szmodics
O'Shea was only missing Ogbene and Ferguson from this camp and could have used Johnston and Idah as cover.
We are definitely short a midfielder or two but it was alarming how O'Shea set us up in spite of that.
I just see Conor Gallagher referring to how his Dad's side is Irish and all, as we know but I wasn't sure whether there was a Scottish connection on his father's side:
https://www.theguardian.com/football...h-for-scotland
I agree with the above post. Whelan in particular was an excellent defensive midfielder, who was much maligned by Irish fans.
The solution to the current situation, could be to try one of our numerous centre halfs into a defensive midfielder. Andrew Abadomebele looks very comfortable on the ball and could be the answer. Charlton done it back in the day with McGrath
It can make a difference I agree, a "huge" difference I'm not so sure. At the end of the day the most important part of you're defence is you're CB's and you're GK. Yes having an extra layer on top of that in the form of a hold midfielder can help but ultimately the most important part of a defensive set up is the CB and GK. You also need to remember about that 5-2 defeat is the absolute plonker of a manager we had, I would argue that was more of a reason why we were so bad rather than not having a holding midfielder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supreme feet
Your*
10 or more years ago I was saying there wasn't much wrong with our team that a good midfield wouldn't make right. Nothing has changed!Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
I agree - either Collins or Omobamidele could be used in that midfield role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drummerboy2
I'm afraid I can't agree with this - the role of the midfield is crucial is defending - the midfielders have to be able to cut out through passes and have to be able to track back with attackers and get into position. No matter how good you GK and back four are, they will be torn asunder if the midfield do not engage with their defensive responsibilities (as @Supreme feet outlined).Quote:
Originally Posted by CSAD
To win a game you have to score more than the opposition - it is way easier to win 1-0 than to win 4-3 - if you can't defend properly then you are not going to win too many games. That was the fault with Kenny - he wanted the team to play pretty football but he couldn't organise the defending to stop leaking goals (O'Shea is no different). That is why Hughton is a good option - he starts with not conceding and builds from there (and to clarify - this does not mean that he is a defensive coach - he is not - but he does understand the need to be able to defend and minimise the goals you concede).
A non-crocked full/wing-back or two maybe?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
You’re right as usual and as ever. But why target CSAD? Some posters here mutilate the language on a daily basis. The practice of legalising foul words and terminology by substituting an asterisk is also rife. Meanwhile, simple and benign name-calling is called out. Maybe it’s time to revisit your style manual.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
What an utterly pointless contribution.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
I already said it was important and it is, I just don't think it's THE most important part of a defensive set. My biggest fear is when we get counter attacked, that's where I think it really comes into play. I know people have mentioned Collins alot but I honestly wouldnt be against Omobamidele being looked at in midfield. Has the perfect build for it and is good on the ball so think he'd manage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
The actual way Kenny had us playing wasn't necessarily wrong, the issue was the tactics side of the game more than anything. It just shows how important it is to have a esteemed number 2 like Kenny had with Barry, as you could see even with Kenny in charge how things improved. I honestly maintain if we managed to keep Barry as a number 2 we would have given the NL a much better crack as even with our own deficiencies we were still competitive in all 3 games against Ukraine & Scotland that we drew/lost with O'Shea as the assistant and the goals we conceded were totally avoidable if we were well set up and we certainly wouldn't have lost in Armenia. This in turn would have possibly meant we'd at the very least had a better shot of a play off and possibly even scrapped into pot 2 and avoid the **** show of a group we got in the end. It was obvious to anyone once Barry left how things deteriorated censurably...
John O'Shea was still with the U21s.Quote:
Originally Posted by CSAD
You are correct, I read the date wrong!Quote:
Originally Posted by JR89
Eustace was there for June's games. Not sure whether he already had been appointed Birmingham manager or was in talks with them.
Can't remember if they brought anyone in for the loss against Scotland in September. I wanna say Stephen Rice took a more hands on approach for that window as well as being the analyst/scout.
Think O'Shea was there for the November window as there was no U21 games and think he officially joined the seniors after that.
O'Shea was definitely there for 2023 with Keith Andrews. For the Armenia, Ukraine (H), Scotland, Ukraine (A) is was John Eustace anyway and to be fair considering how long he was there we actually did make some progress in that time, another advantage of having an actual qualified manager involved!, as in 4 games we were a better side by the time we played Ukraine (A) than we were at the beginning v Armenia.Quote:
Originally Posted by JR89
He left after that and I'm not sure he was replaced at least until O'Shea came in.
In those four games in June the two games we got points in you could see more of Eustace's finger prints on the team compared to Armenia away and Ukraine at home.Quote:
Originally Posted by CSAD
We played 3-4-3 for the first two games with the front three against Armenia being Parrott, Robinson, and Ogbene. Parrott was dropped for the next game with Knight coming in as the third forward who can drop back to make it three in midfield in defence like he done away to Luxembourg and the Belgium game.
After that we switched to 3-5-2 and started playing some direct balls more. First goal coming from a long ball by Kelleher after almost giving away a goal twice by playing it short.
You want to be allowed to call people names?Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapshot
There’s a long standing rule on here to attack the w@nk, not the w@nker - or something like that. :D
Never heard it expressed quite as eloquently as that, mind! :p
The improvements under Barry for that period indicate that with the right people we can be a competitive team.
I struggle to believe that the FAI can't identify a management team that can make us competitive.
Hughton or Mick would have the nous and experience to do that imo - Mick had us competitive with a poorer team in the Swiss/Denmark group - two really decent sides and we could have qualified automatically with a bit of luck in the last minutes of the Danish game if I remember. The football wasn't great but as has been said by numerous posters, until we get the midfield to a decent level, it's hard to see how we can play good football without being picked off by any half decent side. I don't see him returning but if I was in the FAI I would be sounding him out. I know a few former internationals and they said he was great to play under. I always liked him and while I could see so much merit in what Roy Keane fought against and you could argue that Mick went with the status quo that led to Saipan, he is critiqued unfairly imo by a section of the Irish support and I wonder if that is because of Saipan.
I mean I'd like to think the FAI have enough about them to broaden the search past ex internationals and those on the "circuit" in the uk, but right now it's obvious that this is crisis stuff if O'Shea stays.
Yes, Dogberry. But only in extreme cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
I'm surprised you know Shakespeare, might be the most intelligent thing you've ever come out with... but as for wanting name calling, well that's just strange behavior from an adultQuote:
Originally Posted by Snapshot
McCarthy was much more effective the second time around as manager - the first time he didn't have the experience. If Saipan had occurred during his second tenure I expect that he would have handled it differently and kept Keane onside - and he wouldn't have f*cked up against Spain not realising that they only had ten men on the pitch and one of them couldn't run. What it actually shows is that you need experience to be an international manager and it also helps a lot if you have experience as an international manager.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungle
O'Shea was made assistant manager of U21s in April 2020 and joined the senior team in February 2023. John Eustace became Birmingham manager in July 2022.Quote:
Originally Posted by CSAD
Yes this is all true to be fair, glad it clears things up!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
So essentially while O'Shea was part of the Irish coaching staff Ireland lost 6 qualifying games from 6 (realistically we would beat Gibralter with anyone in charge) and has never managed a team as a manager in his life...and yet some clown's on RTE punditry team think he should become the manager :confused:
How was he more effective 2nd time around? We were unwatchableQuote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant