Ireland V Germany 12th October & Faroe Islands 16th October 2012 - World Cup 2014 Q

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

If you go on your own and say nothing and do nothing then yes there is no way you could be "outed" - it's akin to any "lone wolf" away fan getting into the home end and keeping schtum. But if for instance a casual fan was to take his son, father, friend or wife etc to an LoI match natural conversation could "out" him as a fan of the "foreign game". If the pair of fans said, "oh who is that number 3 for shels, he looks pretty quick but suspect at positioning", "yeah a bit like a poor mans John Arne Riise / Stefan Radu / Sven Bender etc" - firstly he wouldnt know who Lorcan Fitzgerald was and secondly mentioning such names would indicate his knowledge of, and probable watching of a game beyond the sea by the fact that he knows a Fulham / Lazio / Dortmund player.

Look at the end of the day, in all seriousness, if domestic football is to grow a huge element of it is about being open and inclusive fans. If casual fans dont feel welcome then I cannot see how the LoI will realistically grow. A lot of people on here carp on and on about how people supporting foreign teams is destroying LoI clubs, but the idea that someone can enjoy foreign football and go to the occasional LoI game too seems to be disgusting to quite a few of the hardcore LoI club fans. They are entitled to feel that way if they want, but as I said I can't see the league's fan base growing with such entrenched attitudes.

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What a deluded and disingenuous post.

I've been to literally hundreds of LOI games over the last 20 years, and I have never once seen anybody 'outed', nor have I ever seen anybody with even the remotest interest in determing if anybody else was a first-time attendee or watched games from 'beyond the sea' with the pupose of being hostile to them, or for any other reason.

I don't know how you got the notion that LOI fans are not only unaware of the players and clubs in other leagues but suspicious of people who are aware of them as some kind of unwanted outsiders, but it has no basis in reality whatsoever and could not have been an objectively reached conclusion from the kind of comments made by LOI fans on this website.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

What a deluded and disingenuous post.

I've been to literally hundreds of LOI games over the last 20 years, and I have never once seen anybody 'outed', nor have I ever seen anybody with even the remotest interest in determing in anybody else was a first-time atendee or watched games from 'beyond the sea' with the pupose fo being hostile to them, or for any other reason.

I don't know how you got the notion that LOI fans are not only unaware of the players and clubs in other leagues but suspicious of people who are aware of them as some kind of unwanted outsiders, but it has no basis in reality whatsoever and could not have been an objectively reached conclusuin from the kind of comments made by LOI fans on this website.

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I've got a friend who came out a number of years ago to his diehard LOI family, and he says it was a very traumatic experience. He endured a long period of rejection and negative reactions. They eventually accepted it, but he's had strained relationship with his father ever since.

Is there something erratic about Sweden, particularly during games, that we should be looking into ahead of our crucial games against them next year?

They appear to verge on the very ordinary to good enough to take on the best. Heres some examples:

4-0 down to Germany and facing a hammering. Turn it around to get a draw.

Beat France 2-0 in the Euros (and comfortably at that).

Lost 2-1 to an average Ukraine side in Euro 2012. Remember they went ahead and were comfortable in this game but then switched off and two goals from Sheva won the game.

Lost 3-2 to England in Euro 2012. Again had control and lead of the game in the second half at 2-1, only to throw it away and lose and elimination.

Other points to note:

They won all their Euro 2012 qualifying games at home, which included a 3-2 defeat of an already qualified Holland.

Their last competitive defeat at home was back in June 2009 when they lost 1-0 to Denmark.

We have a good recent record against Sweden in friendlies, winning the last two. We havent played them competitively since the 70s.

All in all, reviewing their recent record particularly at home is scary. To get a draw away from home will be a great result for us at the best of times, let alone the uncertain position we are in right now.

Barring injuries, the Swedish team for our game in March is likely to be as follows;

GK: Isaksson (plays with some mickey mouse team in Turkey. Was talked up as a world class goalkeeper by the Swedish media during the 2004 Euros but that talk has long since gone. Strikes me as a goalie low in confidence everytime I see him play. Flaps at crosses, strong preference to punch when ball would be easier to catch)

RB: Lustig (with Celtic, in and out of the team. Average)
CB: Olsson (with WBA. Typical British style centre half. Good in the air, muck on the ground.)
CB: Granqvist (plays in Serie A but this is a player that couldn't get a game with Wigan. Superstar he ain't)
LB: Safari (plays in the second tier of French football with Monaco. Converted left winger. Positional sense is poor. Often caught in possession. Exposed over and over again at this level. Sweden's answer to Stephen Ward. Weak point in their team? Yes!)

DM: Wermbloom (plays in Russia, would be expected to make the tackles and win the ball. Type of player every functioning team needs.)
DM: Källström (another playing in Russia. Never has lived up to earlier hype. Has often been overlooked in favour of Anders Svensson (played with Southampton in the past, now in the Swedish league). A real hot and cold player but was instrumental in Sweden's come back against the Germans)

RM: Larsson (with Sunderland. A decent enough player for a mediocre Premiership side)
AM: Ibrahimovic (the one Swedish player that would walk into our team. At his best he is a world class player. Will play behind a lone centre forward but probably not the player in the Swedish squad best suited for this position. Personally think Toivonen (PSV) has done well when played in this position.)
LM: A position that is open in the team as no one player has made it his own. Probably will go for Wilhelmsson, currently with Bobby Keane in Hollywood. Good dribbler but extremely lightweight.

CF: Elmander (playing in Turkey, previously with Bolton in the Premiership. Good player but nothing spectacular. Similar to a Shane Long type of player in many respects.)

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Originally Posted by Roberto

Ah, thats what I thought you were getting at. I have been to many LOI games. I lived in Dublin and attended Shelbourne games a lot and when I moved to the South East I also went to Waterford games. To be honest, crap facilities, no atmosphere and a fairly poor standard of football turned me off so I stopped going. I do believe in the concept value for money. However I do think I do a little 'for the long term benefit of Irish football' as I am involved in a local club as a coach for our Schoolboys teams.

If you are so patriotic about Irish football why do you call yourself after an Italian Australian soccer player who spent a lot of his career playing in the English and Scottish leagues :confused:

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Not in the last few years anyway

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Originally Posted by elroy

Is there something erratic about Sweden, particularly during games, that we should be looking into ahead of our crucial games against them next year?

They appear to verge on the very ordinary to good enough to take on the best. Heres some examples:

4-0 down to Germany and facing a hammering. Turn it around to get a draw.

Beat France 2-0 in the Euros (and comfortably at that).

Lost 2-1 to an average Ukraine side in Euro 2012. Remember they went ahead and were comfortable in this game but then switched off and two goals from Sheva won the game.

Lost 3-2 to England in Euro 2012. Again had control and lead of the game in the second half at 2-1, only to throw it away and lose and elimination.

Other points to note:

They won all their Euro 2012 qualifying games at home, which included a 3-2 defeat of an already qualified Holland.

Their last competitive defeat at home was back in June 2009 when they lost 1-0 to Denmark.

We have a good recent record against Sweden in friendlies, winning the last two. We havent played them competitively since the 70s.

All in all, reviewing their recent record particularly at home is scary. To get a draw away from home will be a great result for us at the best of times, let alone the uncertain position we are in right now.

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They appear to have a fairly poor defensive record. Not that ours is all that hot recently, but they're conceding plenty of goals.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

I don't know how you got the notion that LOI fans are not only unaware of the players and clubs in other leagues but suspicious of people who are aware of them as some kind of unwanted outsiders, but it has no basis in reality whatsoever and could not have been an objectively reached conclusion from the kind of comments made by LOI fans on this website.

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Even others have described in this thread how, discussions at pubs have descended into argumentative and condescending affairs, I've experienced this after going to LoI games (on the comparitivly few occasions I've been in the last 20 years) to a bigger extend than what I experienced going to league games in places like Germany, Portugal, Argentina, Turkey, Italy, Armenia, Iceland where in all places antagonism was non-existant. Going for a few drinks after a San Lorenzo match locals could tell I was from abroad but were friendly, asking me about Irish football, Irish Rugby (the national team had played a few weeks earlier in Velez's stadium) and what I thought about San Lorenzo players, it was very different to the sneering you dont deserve to watch LoI game attitude i saw on the Dart back to Dublin after an LoI evening game.

You say that it's impossible to conclude the anti foreign football idea from comments made by fans on this site, but what do we have over the last 2-3 pages? A load of people having a dig at a fan who dares to follow Wigan. Look I'm sure you love the LoI and follow it religiously from overseas, and fair play to you for doing that - but I really dont think you can brush the antagonistic elements of the fan base under the carpet and claim its a utopia of welcoming fan bonhomie.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

What's the point in going to a club game casually given the hostile condescending bickering, and petty chastisement / one-upmanship about not watching foreign leagues.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

if for instance a casual fan was to take his son, father, friend or wife etc to an LoI match natural conversation could "out" him as a fan of the "foreign game". If the pair of fans said, "oh who is that number 3 for shels, he looks pretty quick but suspect at positioning", "yeah a bit like a poor mans John Arne Riise / Stefan Radu / Sven Bender etc" - firstly he wouldnt know who Lorcan Fitzgerald was and secondly mentioning such names would indicate his knowledge of, and probable watching of a game beyond the sea by the fact that he knows a Fulham / Lazio / Dortmund player.

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You portray LOI games as an atmosphere where hostile LOI fans are looking to 'out' the suspicious fan of leagues 'beyond the sea.' Nothing on the last 2-3 pages has come even close to indicating this.

Now you imply I'm describing the LOI as a place of utopian bonhomie.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

but I really dont think you can brush the antagonistic elements of the fan base under the carpet and claim its a utopia of welcoming fan bonhomie.

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You exaggerated wildly - I called you on it, so you change the goalposts. Well done.

The last 2-3 pages have seen a guy getting slated for following Wigan, with people having a go at him for supporting a team from overseas. Its not like it's a one-off either. People used to have a go at Celtic fans on this forum and I remember seeing the same sort of thing a few years ago when some Irish fans decided to follow a Dutch team (I think it was Go Ahead Eagles), it looked like the whole thing was a bit of a harmless idea to follow a team abroad but there was a lot of vitriol on forums (including this one) about how they should stick to Irish teams etc. Personally I think the attitude of elements of the fan base is a significant off putting factor, you clearly disagree.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

The last 2-3 pages have seen a guy getting slated for following Wigan, with people having a go at him for supporting a team from overseas. Its not like it's a one-off either. People used to have a go at Celtic fans on this forum and I remember seeing the same sort of thing a few years ago when some Irish fans decided to follow a Dutch team (I think it was Go Ahead Eagles), it looked like the whole thing was a bit of a harmless idea to follow a team abroad but there was a lot of vitriol on forums (including this one) about how they should stick to Irish teams etc.

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To be fair though, it should be fairly obvious comments on an anonymous message board are not going to be at all representative of reality.

I've never seen anyone at an LOI game given any kind of problem for attending for supporting EPL teams, aside from good-natured ribbing or some gentle debate.

That's the trouble though, what might seem "good natured ribbing" to one person might be a bit off putting to another. Some people might see calling someone a "west brit"* as a bit of harmless banter, but someone else, say a causal fan, might take it badly or just think, "going to match is ok but I cant be bothered by all these names and shenanigans".

*I'm using this as an example as it was picked out by others in prior posts.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

That's the trouble though, what might seem "good natured ribbing" to one person might be a bit off putting to another. Some people might see calling someone a "west brit"* as a bit of harmless banter, but someone else, say a causal fan, might take it badly or just think, "going to match is ok but I cant be bothered by all these names and shenanigans".

*I'm using this as an example as it was picked out by others in prior posts.

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Ok. But I've never heard anyone called a 'west Brit' in an LOI ground or anything with anywhere near those kind of connotations. And when I say 'good natured banter' I mean the kind of stuff that, if you're offended by, you probably shouldn't be supporting football at all.

Point is the anonymous reactions of keyboard warriors shouldn't be used as Exhibit A in why LOI fans can are the playground bullies of Irish sport.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

I don't know why they are so touchy, but it's another reason, and perhaps a bigger reason compared to facilities and standard of football, that could well put people off attending. What's the point in going to a club game casually given the hostile condescending bickering, and petty chastisement / one-upmanship about not watching foreign leagues.

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As others have pointed out, I have never once seen this happen. Not when I first started attending Bray games, and not to anyone else after I became a regular. One of my first games was against Derry (incidentally, if you think LOI games have a crap atmosphere, you should check their supporters out. In my opinion the best in the league). I made the mistake of turning up in a red and white top, and stuck out like a sore thumb in the home section. I got nothing but banter off the Bray supporters all game.

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Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter

I've said it before in other threads (can't remember which one), that pontificating to those who follow an English club like they are committing some horrible sin will get none of them through an LOI gate. Nobody likes to be lectured. I know people who dismiss the LoI and the suggestion they go to some of its games for that reason, for what they perceive as a cliquey attitude that is hostile to those who choose to support English clubs.

I have no idea what you could do, practically, to combat that perception.

Personally, I think the EPL, like most leagues in Europe, is way, way above the LOI, both in tears of talent and entertainment value, but I'll admit I might be in the minority on these forums when it comes to that opinion.

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The lecturing isn't really against those who follow English clubs. 90% of LOI supporters will follow a team across the Irish Sea. I'm a Stoke City fan myself. It's not even really directed at those who support an English club and don't follow the LOI, although that certainly does happen. The main thing that gets our backs up is when others either scoff at our league, as if they are somehow better for having picked the team that was winning the most in England when they were 8, or when they try to rationalise their choice with all sorts of flimsy excuses, such as "there's no LOI team near me" (I've heard people from Shankill and Greystones say that), and "there is a witch hunt for non LOI anoraks inside every ground"

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

If you go on your own and say nothing and do nothing then yes there is no way you could be "outed" - it's akin to any "lone wolf" away fan getting into the home end and keeping schtum. But if for instance a casual fan was to take his son, father, friend or wife etc to an LoI match natural conversation could "out" him as a fan of the "foreign game". If the pair of fans said, "oh who is that number 3 for shels, he looks pretty quick but suspect at positioning", "yeah a bit like a poor mans John Arne Riise / Stefan Radu / Sven Bender etc" - firstly he wouldnt know who Lorcan Fitzgerald was and secondly mentioning such names would indicate his knowledge of, and probable watching of a game beyond the sea by the fact that he knows a Fulham / Lazio / Dortmund player.

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Nothing wrong with following other leagues, and nobody would give out to you about it. In fact, I almost guarantee they'd be interested if you knew a lot about German or Italian football. I brought a mate to a horrible league cup game against Drogheda in the pouring rain. Bray lost 2-0 and barely got out of our own half. We'd been chatting all game, he'd been asking questions and making comments, and on the way out, the guy who had been sitting behind us jokingly said something along the lines of "Jayzus, you picked a ****ing brilliant game for your first time in Bray, didn't you?!"

No hostility, no aggression, even though this guy had just seen his team lose to what were, at the time, a very poor side.

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Look at the end of the day, in all seriousness, if domestic football is to grow a huge element of it is about being open and inclusive fans. If casual fans dont feel welcome then I cannot see how the LoI will realistically grow. A lot of people on here carp on and on about how people supporting foreign teams is destroying LoI clubs, but the idea that someone can enjoy foreign football and go to the occasional LoI game too seems to be disgusting to quite a few of the hardcore LoI club fans. They are entitled to feel that way if they want, but as I said I can't see the league's fan base growing with such entrenched attitudes.

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I've never seen that. If you took a poll of everyone on this board, I'd say less than 1% would say it's a problem to follow a club in England or Spain as well as an Irish club. It's unfortunate that you have a different impression, but in my experience it is not the truth.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

The last 2-3 pages have seen a guy getting slated for following Wigan, with people having a go at him for supporting a team from overseas. Its not like it's a one-off either. People used to have a go at Celtic fans on this forum and I remember seeing the same sort of thing a few years ago when some Irish fans decided to follow a Dutch team (I think it was Go Ahead Eagles), it looked like the whole thing was a bit of a harmless idea to follow a team abroad but there was a lot of vitriol on forums (including this one) about how they should stick to Irish teams etc. Personally I think the attitude of elements of the fan base is a significant off putting factor, you clearly disagree.

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Generally, these discussions start with one frustrated person giving out to the foreign-club-supporter, usually under the fairly reasonable assumption that they don't support an Irish club as well. If it emerges that they do, the debate usually fizzles out quickly.

Celtic supporters get a lot of stick because some of them crow that they are supporting them because they are an "Irish club". It gets a bit annoying when they give this as their reason when ignoring clubs who actually play in Ireland.

I have been going to League of Ireland games for over forty years, and not ONCE at a game have I seen anyone criticized for having an interest in English football or following English clubs. (I used to follow one myself - as do many, many LOI fans). Of course you can have these kind of arguments in pubs - but it's not exactly uncommon to have arguments in pubs. I would love to go to games in Ireland which would have an atmosphere generated by the presence of 10,000 fans. However, we don't have that, as most people in Ireland prefer to watch Man United on Sky Sports rather than support their local team. It's obviously frustrating, but absolutely everyone is welcome at LOI grounds. Beggars can't be choosers.

The reason this debate 'kicked off' is because someone considered supporting an unfashionable English league club as an affront and an attack on LOI soccer. Thats not the case on my part. As I mentioned I've been to many LOI games and I am not a 'knocker' as I do keep an eye on LOI results especially in European games. However I stopped going as I simply wasn't enjoying the experience anymore and going to games since I moved to this area involves 30 mile round trips. The fact that I now get my 'kicks' from supporting Wigan, though I admit peculiar, is no reason for people to have a go. I support who I want no matter what country they are from. To be honest when I did go to LOI games I found the majority of fans also supported English clubs and I never felt uncomfortable there because I liked English soccer. I am assuming most LOI supporters on here also support English clubs. If there are some who feel you must pledge your support to a LOI club at the expense of any other club where English or not, well that is fairly pathetic. It would appear I started this debate so can I now end it?

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Originally Posted by Roberto

The reason this debate 'kicked off' is because someone considered supporting an unfashionable English league club as an affront and an attack on LOI soccer. Thats not the case on my part. As I mentioned I've been to many LOI games and I am not a 'knocker' as I do keep an eye on LOI results especially in European games. However I stopped going as I simply wasn't enjoying the experience anymore and going to games since I moved to this area involves 30 mile round trips. The fact that I now get my 'kicks' from supporting Wigan, though I admit peculiar, is no reason for people to have a go. I support who I want no matter what country they are from. To be honest when I did go to LOI games I found the majority of fans also supported English clubs and I never felt uncomfortable there because I liked English soccer. I am assuming most LOI supporters on here also support English clubs. If there are some who feel you must pledge your support to a LOI club at the expense of any other club where English or not, well that is fairly pathetic. It would appear I started this debate so can I now end it?

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If you're referring to myself, I didn't see your support of Wigan as an affront to or an attack on Irish football. I suppose I did imply it mightn't be helpful and could be detrimental in the long-run, but you're free to support who you like and spend your money wherever you wish. I'm not lumping you in with the majority as you appear very much self-aware and clearly have the interests of Irish football at heart, judging by your latter posts, but I just find it frustrating that the football-following Irish public, by and large, seem unable to spot the glaring connection between the state our national side is in - distinctly pedestrian, uninspiring and bereft of the conveyor belt of talent coming through that other nations enjoy due to a bit of foresight and long-term investment on their parts - and the lack of a proper footballing structure in this country. A better league, amongst other things, would go a long way towards helping the national side, but people just don't want to know. It startles me that the RTÉ panel routinely neglect to comment on this aspect of the game in Ireland when discussing the state of the national side. Do they fail to see it or do they just not want to admit that their foreign focus may be having a detrimental effect on Irish football? That's what disheartens me, I suppose; people claiming to support Ireland but failing to realise that they may be doing more harm than good, admittedly unwittingly in many cases. But, yeah, people are free to do what they like, and I really don't wish to seem patronising or come across as looking down from some high horse, but if some of those who profess to have the best interests of Irish football at heart could only look a bit deeper...

And my moniker is mere word-play; just a bit of fun. Nothing anti-Irish in it. :p I'm a Daniel/Danny myself and thought Invincibile's impressive name sounded almost superhero-like, so adopted it for a laugh. Closest I come to being a superhero is wearing my briefs outside my jeans, mind!

this really needs to be made a separate thread.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

To be fair though, it should be fairly obvious comments on an anonymous message board are not going to be at all representative of reality.

I've never seen anyone at an LOI game given any kind of problem for attending for supporting EPL teams, aside from good-natured ribbing or some gentle debate.

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I've figured that out with the many debates and off the wall points you have made SvD ;) :D

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Originally Posted by Roberto

The reason this debate 'kicked off' is because someone considered supporting an unfashionable English league club as an affront and an attack on LOI soccer. Thats not the case on my part. As I mentioned I've been to many LOI games and I am not a 'knocker' as I do keep an eye on LOI results especially in European games. However I stopped going as I simply wasn't enjoying the experience anymore and going to games since I moved to this area involves 30 mile round trips. The fact that I now get my 'kicks' from supporting Wigan, though I admit peculiar, is no reason for people to have a go. I support who I want no matter what country they are from. To be honest when I did go to LOI games I found the majority of fans also supported English clubs and I never felt uncomfortable there because I liked English soccer. I am assuming most LOI supporters on here also support English clubs. If there are some who feel you must pledge your support to a LOI club at the expense of any other club where English or not, well that is fairly pathetic. It would appear I started this debate so can I now end it?

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They don't support English Clubs per se, but they do support British clubs like Derry and stuff.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

this really needs to be made a separate thread.

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Typical elitist LOI fan wanting a seperate thread to the 'barstoolers'