One of the few!!Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
One of the few!!Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
I think we need to be careful about claims like this. Lawal has done nothing to deserve a call-up if we're honest. He's in there by default because of how bad we are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
It could absolutely be worse if we start random players just because. The inherent bias in "x player is young and eligible" has probably blinded us to a bit to just how crap we are (as Kingdom pointed out earlier)
I don't think we should be that bad that we're getting creamed by Armenia, but we're bad.
I don't agree with this - though I agree with most of your postQuote:
Originally Posted by Insidetherock
Contact hours is a big issue for us. We're easy behind most, if not all, other European countries in that regard.
You're right that that doesn't impact Collins (say) because he's a Premier League player by rights now (who left Ireland at 15 - another factor). But it must impact our options. With proper academics we would be producing more players. We wouldn't have to bring on a guy at St Mirren for example.
So it's definitely a factor for me in how bad we are the last few years - but equally it doesn't excuse the guys out there tonight that performance
So what do we do Pineapple, just keep playing the same lads knowing 100% that they are not good enough and never will be?
Its a moot point and not trying to labour the LoI rose coloured specs, but a mini straw poll - do people think that say Shamrock Rovers would have been as poor against Armenia tonight? Pretend our international squad went on strike,We have somthing of a guage due to European football. I ask trying to reconcile overall ability with simply a team.
Honestly (and melodramatically), i'd turf all the c*nts who played tonight out - make them run laps til they puke - and start the next game with a fresh batch who might want to fight for the jersey and play they way they can play. Honohan, Lawal, whoever, get them on there. It surely couldn't have been any worse?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
People need to stop thinking that the solution to our midfield problem is replacing them with other midfielders. There are no other better midfielders - Smallbone and Molumby are probably close to being on a par with Cullen and Knight, everyone else is far worse. That's not a compliment of those two, just a statement of the reality of the other options. Jack Taylor isn't any better, neither is Alan Browne. Finn doesn't get his game in Ligue 2, Lawal might be an option for a future campaign, but not yet. There's also little sign of anyone else coming through, which is even more concerning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
I was really disappointed with the way we set up tonight, because I thought the team named had potential. But then he played Taylor much to far forward instead of in a proper midfield three and Azaz got pushed out to the side. It might not have made a difference anyway, but it was the wrong setup of those players for me.
But yeah, Cullen and Knight are there simply because there's nobody better available.
They would have likely also lost. After all they recently lost to a club side from Kosovo away from home. What makes you think they'd beat the Armenia national team in Yerevan?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
We play the best team we have and don't delude ourselves that someone who's senior experience pretty much amounts to relegation to the fourth tier with Fleetwood is going to improve things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
I don't like it either. I get there's always a glimmer of hope with a new player (before he's dumped on the scrapheap for the next option).
But to answer SkStu's question "It surely couldn't have been any worse?" - yes. Yes it could.
And again, I don't like that any more than you do.
In slightly better news, the U21s are holding out against Andorra.
For the record Lawal has started the season well for Stoke
But, will clubs ( English clubs ) let players put in that sort of effort for international teams like the Republic of Ireland these days ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosby87
Maybe that is why Michael O' Neill plays ( for the Six Counties ) so many young players that are still trying to make their way in the professional game ?
He's playing centre back. And he's playing for Stoke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Average rating of 6.5 over six games - https://www.whoscored.com/players/45...ow/bosun-lawalQuote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Whoopdy woo
Again, this is the (very natural) bias that we all have here - new player coming through who's eligible - start him for the senior team now and it'll change things!
But it won't
Look all Im saying is we've seen Cullen Knight for years and its crap. If ye are happy to see it continue thats up to you.
I'm not happy to see it continueQuote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
But if you want to see it get worse, that's up to you
Agreed in general... results wise, it's all pretty marginal but after tonight I am sick to the back teeth of some of these players. There is something to be said, psychologically if nothing else, about freshening things up and having some of these underperformers realize that nothing is guaranteed. If they're not strong enough mentally for a tough game in Yerevan then they dont belong out there. I'd be fine looking at others who might. At this point who gives a fck? We cant drop much further in terms of humiliation. Tonight was a shambles and a disgrace. As Crosby said, there wasnt even any fight in them. Thats table stakes for any Irish team of any vintage. These losers just completely capitulated. As i said before, Armenia ended up taking the p*ss out of us out there in the 2nd half. How can that be explained rationally and reasonably?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
How the fcuk could it get worse than that today. Our keeper stopped it being 5 or 6 against a team who are 105th in the world! They walked through the middle of the pitch at will. Tell me what would have been worse.
Fcukin hell, as SkStu said, every one of them bar Ferguson and Kelleher should be worried about their places in the squad again
We both know Rovers would have won that game for 3 specific reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
Rovers are well coached
Rovers players would not have taken the game for granted
Rovers have better midfielders than Cullen and Knight.
International panels are only together for a few weeks at a time so coaching has to be specific and easily digested. The Irish players tonight,and on Saturday ( keeper & striker exempt) looked like they would struggle to get the alphabet explained to them. Cretins.
Thankfully Michael Noonan scored for the U21's- these are the lads that need our attention,not the overpaid, money grabbing, english league domestiques that wear the green
Completely agree with that. I don't know what the issue is - they're better than what went on tonightQuote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
But equally they were all for the most part players we were clamouring on to start 3/4 years ago. And now we want to dump them en masse - but we'll likely just want to dump Lawal etc al en masse in 3/4 years' time too
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by placid casual
No they don't
We done with that? Good
I don't think there are any glaring admissions in squad selection, so it really is a case of trying things and arriving at a system that maximises the resources at our disposal.
That might not be very good at all, but it's as good as this cohort of players are going to be.
Nobody's happy to see it continue. Most of us are resigned that we don't have any better players in that position. My view has long been that we should be packing the centre of midfield with additional players to deal with the weakness. I actually thought that's what we were doing tonight when I saw the line up. Sadly it wasn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
We'll go nowhere with any midfield two that any of Hallgrimsson, McCarthy or O'Shea want to select, I know that much. Because we just don't have the quality of midfielders to play a midfield two, full stop.
I think leaving Molumby out of squad is strange.
But other than that, we don’t really have many options in midfield.
Still though….. Armenia ffs
Back at Euro 2012 I wanted to see Duff moved into a diamond midfield. He could pass the ball, he could hold on to the ball and he could read the game. He was not a natural midfielder at all but then neither was Dwight Yorke until Beenhakker stuck him in midfield for Trinidad. Luckily Trap found Paul Green though so all was grand.
Hungary drawing 2-2 with Portugal, with 33% possession at home.. with 1/3 of the passes Portugal have
You don't need to have the ball all the time, or make hundreds of passes
Just be effective when you have it
I see Norway beating Moldova 11-1 tonight.
**** me, we're so far off Norway it's mental
Stick a hape of lads in midfield, like anyone that doesn't have good midfielders would do !
A very good Belgium team of the 1980's played with 1 forward ( Jan Ceulmans ) and plenty of everything else behind him.
Plenty of teams have done this down the years ( many Italian teams for example, actually Italy may have done it, even when they had good midfielders ) ) . It's what you do if don't have good midfielders. It's not rocket science.
Norway had a Rangers player signed from L1 score a hattrick.... we'd have been too busy arguing about the standard of league he plays in to enjoy it
Actually hes got 4
Ah yes, the oft maligned 1-8-1 formation. F*ck it shur, lets give it a shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
Its not what I asked, im getting at the level of performance, trying to understand any issue in attitude, if a (supposedly poorer) team set up with familiarity with formation etc could they have been better? Would centre halves have let a bog standard through ball split them. Even in a back to the wall scenario would they have looked so unprepared, like they hadnt bothered in training. Im trying to get my head around what happened. SK it was all a bit experimental, trying to play in a way where there wasnt players capable of doing so, this is a tad more rudimentary and they shouldnt be out of their depth with HHs style. Its a curiosity on opinion not a leading question on championing Shamrock Rovers. Ridiculous as a suggestion but not so much as asking opinion on whether people think that SRFC or Shels even would have been as poor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
6 or 7 in the Armenia squad play for a domestic side that Lincoln Red Imps beat in Europe, Uratu have a few and dont have a European pedigree really, 1 or 2 each from a few of other domestic clubs. LoI ranked higher for what its worth. So not asking if a domestic Irsh club would win against an international side Im questioning performance and attitude and preperation. Hypothetical stuff even if seen as pointess in a humour me way:D
Is there an argument for progressing underage teams to senior especially as soon as a campaign is over, getting the acclimatised to the senior setup, tactics and formation and develop a club team like mentality. With exceptions and augmented with some senior players. Preferable to trawling for granny rule players maybe. Could it help with the limited contact hours over time with the narrow international windows avalable to try and get older players working in a cohesive manner. For all the time the current senio players have had together they looked tonight like a first game together.
Well 4-5-1 or 5-4-1 , I am not totally out of control !Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
I remember Tommy Coyne ( John Aldridge would have done it as well , some of the time anyway ) running the legs off himself for Jack Charlton, and as I assume Big Jack was playing with a back 4, then that must have been 5 in midfield, and if when needs must, Jack Charlton is willing to play with 5 in midfield, then maybe some other Irish managers that are not doing too well, should give it a try? !
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
USA ‘94 we had a 5 man midfield with Sheridan, Keane and Townsend in the middle.
The players we have now wouldn’t be fit to lace the boots of any of them.
English league domestiques - love it!Quote:
Originally Posted by placid casual
When I was young in the 80s Norway were really average/ poor international team, think they would have had amateurs playing (could be remembering wrong) and then with the help of oil money turned their domestic league professional, huge investment in youth structures and seemed to improve hugely in 90s. Also had a very direct style.
Unfortunately Ireland is where it is, we can change managers, discuss players, tactics but we are drifting down nations rankings.
And then to make matters worse the international team is needed to get funds for Irish football. Vicious circle. Unless government gives money and it’s used well can’t see improvements.
We have the football we deserve thanks to FAI and government who don’t really care about the game.
Also I do think our squad should beat Armenia, that’s on HH and squad but having divine right to beat them I wouldn’t agree. Before the Hungary match all I heard was 6 points at worst 4 referring to Hungary. No mention of Armenia. Most countries in Europe are improving, sadly I don’t think we are.
Coyne wasnt a consistant prolific goalscorer at particularly high levels either but he did what was wanted of him, run the line, hold the ball up and close on everything. I dont think there was an Irish player of that era that worked so hard and so under appreciated for it. David Kelly got more credit for less. People werent too happy he sarted v Italy in 94 and Aldridge on very late. I suppose he was a defensive striker. But yeah while I hated the way Charlton and Mick went to 5 in midfield even when in control with 4, to try and bank a result (backfired a few times like Holland away 2001), I think tonight, with hindsight, that it could have been a possible option. Squeeze up, crowd midfield, 4 still behind to cover turnover of possession, set up like we had no pace with a flat 5 in midfield and strong mobile targetman that brings midfielders in to play, knock it down, or feeds a wide player and tears into the middle to cause mayhem for a cross. Old could be the new new. Dont concede, difficult to beat, nick a goal, spoil after - what I though HH was all about!?Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
Absolute mystery to me why when we had Kinsella, Holland and Keane we had to drop one of Kinsella or Holland. The three of them in the centre of the park and any opposition midfield is dead on arrival.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
Sheridan wasn't a super-star , he could pass the ball very well, if given the time and space and he certainly wasn't known for doing a lot of, running / chasing / harry-ing. Was Townsend a super-star, ok he was a good bit better than what we have now. Could Finn Azaz do a job as the midfielder behind the forward. He is a decent passer. He would need, one / maybe two, midfielders that would make themselves available for attacking passes and of course, the one forward would have to be dangerous enough to probably keep two defenders worried / busy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
It's not as if, playing our not so great midfielders in small numbers is working out for us !
i think collins needs to be dropped at least for the next game. he's far too casual and comfortable and making loads of mistakes. scales i suppose to come in, it probably won't change the results but the last couple of performances have been unacceptable from a captain.
when Phillips was brought on i really did start to wonder about HH. he is just not up to it, league two or LOI level. nothing wrong with that either by the way, he can have a decent career as a professional footballer.
I think I'd actually move O'Brien to CB and bring Doherty in RB or Ebosele maybe. Although what has O'Shea done to warrant his place either?Quote:
Originally Posted by zero
Maybe Scales and O'Brien as our CB pairing
And yet they would've put in a better performance than the Irish team tonight. Rovers might have lost that game due to an error or two. They wouldn't have looked like they had no idea how to even approach the game. Armenia are a really, really poor international side. We made them look levels above anything they ever look, while fielding players that play at a higher level than they do. On the same night, Rovers captain looks like he cemented his place at the WC by beating Cameroon. Interesting side story.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
The main questions after tonight are:
1. Can we afford a manager who can make this team competitive?
2. How do we stop this from becoming the norm? Id argue we need investment at home. Some might say we need a different approach. At this stage our options are......limited.
People brushing off the importance of the domestic development of players, or claiming that they lack in terms of technical ability, are ignoring the large transfer fees being paid for our academy players, which is a recognition that an awful lot is being done with very little. See Shamrock Rovers performance at the Hale Cup, which was the catalyst for Ozhianvunas record deal. He's not a clear standout from that group btw.
Support local football folks. It may be the only option on the table. It's going to be a long road.