Roe v Wade

That is my reading of the Keira Bell case, where she claimed in the High Court (and won) that the NHS "should have challenged her more over her transition". She underwent a double masectomy and other surgery as a result.

If I'm wrong in my conclusion, then I've no problems discussing and/or acknowledging that.

Is it an edge case? The David Bell whistle-blowing report and the Keira Bell case led to the Cass Report, and I've previously quoted the section in it where the same mindset is evidenced from other patients (the idea that they felt there was no way out of transitioning once they had been diagnosed). The Keira Bell case may be the worst case scenario from this mindset, but I don't believe that undermines the case in any way. Bell herself (in the same link) says "What happened to me is happening across the Western world".

And of course none of that is in any way an objection to proper evidence-based treatment for such cases.

But if you want to choose not to engage, then I absolutely respect that decision.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Well, technically that's exactly what this case is about. (I think it originated as a test case in Scotland to see whether a male identifying as a female could count as a female on a board with quotas)

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It's led to trans people not being able to exist as who they are.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Are they male? Sounds fair if so. Bear in mind the ruling is almost certainly going to end the practice of males-identifying-as-females ending up in female prisons, which is more of a danger to female inmates than a safety to the prisoner.

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Then that's what should have been addressed, not this blanket ban

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Drag queen readings to young kids, to be clear. I'm quite ok with that not being a thing to be honest.

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For the record, as long as everyone present is properly vetted, I've no problem with anyone reading/training/etc with children.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

But you can't really use that to argue against what's happening here. They're two completely separate things. I'm completely against homosexuality being outlawed here, for example. If that happens, I'll argue against it as much as I've argued for the Cass Report, etc, here.

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We're unlikely to see something as blunt as "homosexuality is illegal", but it'll be death by a thousand cuts to the culture, e.g. banning pride marches in Hungary

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

ut here's the thing - it's a separate point. Completely separate. You can't argue against Point A by saying "Yeah, well Point B might happen at some stage".

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I don't see it as a separate thing, as evidenced by posting the comic strip. It's the same fight.
BTW some of the people who were campaigning for the legal definition of women have moved on to protesting immigration. Wonder how the immigrants/second gen people that joined them in the campaign feel about it.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

nd not once in your posts have you addressed the real issues here - people being mis-diagnosed, being badly advised from a medical point of view and given unnecessary invasive surgery, etc, etc. And in fact, to the litany of disgraceful things that have happened in the name of this cause in the past few years, you can add the link between puberty blockers and cancer and infertility, particularly in males. None of this was explained of course - in fact, so far as I'm aware it wasn't even tracked.

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I don't know enough about the case to discuss it

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

It's led to trans people not being able to exist as who they are.

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In what way?

And to be clear, I don't believe I can simply identify as female and have the right to enter female spaces as a result, even if that means I don't get to exist as I am. I think that's the central part of the Supreme Court ruling.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

For the record, as long as everyone present is properly vetted, I've no problem with anyone reading/training/etc with children.

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OK - I don't think children should be exposed to overt sexualisation at such a young age. These are two different views - but neither are relevant to trans issues as far as I can see.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

but it'll be death by a thousand cuts to the culture

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I don't think that fear has any real basis in reality though. There'll always be cultures that are less tolerant than others (and ironically, DEI calls for us to be inclusive of these) but I genuinely don't see it being an issue here. There's likely an element of extreme over-reaction, and if some of the sillier trans policies were rowed back on (in UCD for example, there's signs on the toilets saying "Please use the toilets corresponding to the gender you feel most comfortable with", which is silly - as indeed Crafty has shown with his real-world example, which to me shows that the argument for trans rights can often be at the expense of the rights of others) and if people were accepting of that fact, then the counter-reaction would also die down.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

I don't see it as a separate thing, as evidenced by posting the comic strip. It's the same fight.

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I don't agree. They're two very separate issues. Do you not think that you can be supportive of homosexuality while at the same time have issues over the very real concerns that have arisen in trans treatment, etc? Your cartoon would argue that you can't. It argues that anyone who opposes the more liberal interpretations of trans is almost de facto homophobic too. That's why I think it's too simplistic to be helpful in a debate like this.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

I don't know enough about the case to discuss it

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Have a read of them (plural - there's more than one case). I've provided plenty of links.

This would be the ruling that makes it simultaneously a requirement that transmen use the toilet of their birth gender (women's toilets) and simultaneously allows transmen to be banned from women's toilets for being too masculine? That ruling? I suppose it's unreasonably tolerant to expect those people to have somewhere to ****. There are already morons in the US who are obsessed with accusing women of being transwomen on spurious grounds, very often incorrectly. This leads to incidents like the one I linked earlier, where a woman was harassed by police in a public toilet.

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Morton said that when she exited the bathroom stall, she lifted her shirt to prove to the deputies that she was a woman. But, she said, one of the deputies continued to insist she “looked like a man.”

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But the really, really telling thing for me is that in a Roe v Wade thread, there's now almost twice as much on this trans topic as on the thread topic, which ruling has seen previously very stable maternal death rates up 27% in just a few years. It's the greatest political cat toy I've ever seen.

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Originally Posted by John83

But the really, really telling thing for me is that in a Roe v Wade thread, there's now almost twice as much on this trans topic as on the thread topic, which ruling has seen previously very stable maternal death rates up 27% in just a few years. It's the greatest political cat toy I've ever seen.

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What I find really, really surprising is that the trans content hasn't been removed and put into a separate thread. :rolleyes:

You'll have to ask the mod.

Is there no women’s thread it can be amalgamated with?

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Originally Posted by SkStu

Is there no women’s thread it can be amalgamated with?

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The WNT one on the main board MNT section.

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Originally Posted by John83

This would be the ruling that makes it simultaneously a requirement that transmen use the toilet of their birth gender (women's toilets) and simultaneously allows transmen to be banned from women's toilets for being too masculine? That ruling? I suppose it's unreasonably tolerant to expect those people to have somewhere to ****. There are already morons in the US who are obsessed with accusing women of being transwomen on spurious grounds, very often incorrectly. This leads to incidents like the one I linked earlier, where a woman was harassed by police in a public toilet.


But the really, really telling thing for me is that in a Roe v Wade thread, there's now almost twice as much on this trans topic as on the thread topic, which ruling has seen previously very stable maternal death rates up 27% in just a few years. It's the greatest political cat toy I've ever seen.

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I think part of the argument here is we need to ignore what morons in the US are doing - and possibly the language/cultural ties make that harder than we realise. Other countries (the Nordics for example) quietly moved away from WPATH advice years ago. America seems a messed up place culturally (and its police doubly so) and I don't think anyone is arguing we follow what they're doing. In fact, quite the opposite I would say. There more than one way to skin a cat.

I don't mind the thread being split. I think there's general agreement the Roe v Wade decision (and indeed US healthcare in general) is just wrong and that doesn't make for productive debate. It's also not relevant in Ireland so there's probably less interest from that point of view too.

I don't think it's reasonable to dismiss this as a cat toy. Anyone with an interest in trans health should be really concerned by the issues with WPATH and those raised in the Cass Report - and again, can be really concerned about other things too. The problem is the debate polarises for some reason. Partly I think because of a lack of engagement with the other side of the debate (which happens on both sides, generally). Nobody's acknowledged Crafty's real-life experience (there's a better way of phrasing that I think) for example. Heck, nobody seems to have acknowledged the Cass Report raises serious medical questions. I think if that were to change, there'd be a much stronger debate.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

But if you want to choose not to engage, then I absolutely respect that decision.

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I'm not pstu, because while I generally have great respect for you, on this particular topic I consider some of your comments homophobic and anti-trans on a level not far off the likes of the MAGA posters in this forum, deliberate misunderstanding and misuse of facts and science, which again I think it beneath you. Your comments about drag queens in schools just cemented this, a viewpoint I find almost tragic. I'll leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by John83

You'll have to ask the mod.

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It was said in jest, with a nod and a wink to the standards in the Ireland section.

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Originally Posted by The Fly

What I find really, really surprising is that the trans content hasn't been removed and put into a separate thread. :rolleyes:

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Seemingly, this was meant in jest to some extent, but I'd be happy if the trans discussion was indeed moved into its own thread, leaving the abortion discussion to its own thread.

I'm happy to split out this discussion, I just couldn't find a suitable cutoff point the last time I was here, and I'm up the walls. Anyone care to give me a post number?

53 is the first trans post I think.

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Originally Posted by John83

But the really, really telling thing for me is that in a Roe v Wade thread, there's now almost twice as much on this trans topic as on the thread topic, which ruling has seen previously very stable maternal death rates up 27% in just a few years. It's the greatest political cat toy I've ever seen.

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Good to see you've changed your tune anyway.

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Originally Posted by John83

I don't think it adds much to a debate to argue over which of two bad things is worse. We can agree that they're bad. It's not a competition. It's little more than a nasty little rhetorical trap, and anyone who brings up such comparisons should take a good hard look at themselves.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

It's led to trans people not being able to exist as who they are.

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Gender dysphoria is a mental illness according to some, so if trans people are by definition mentally ill, there's no way you can have a reasonable debate on this issue imo. I've learned this the hard way.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

I'm not pstu, because while I generally have great respect for you, on this particular topic I consider some of your comments homophobic and anti-trans on a level not far off the likes of the MAGA posters in this forum, deliberate misunderstanding and misuse of facts and science, which again I think it beneath you. Your comments about drag queens in schools just cemented this, a viewpoint I find almost tragic. I'll leave it at that.

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I mean, again, while I will reciprocate that I generally have had great respect for your views down the years, you've not really put anything in that post I can really argue against. It is somewhat an "Attack the post, not the poster" sort of post. And I'm genuinely surprised that the tipping point seems to be the issue of drag queen story hour, which isn't a trans issue at all.

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Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

Good to see you've changed your tune anyway.

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The first was to say there was no reason to derail the thread, and the second was a criticism of how the thread was derailed. But sure, take them out of context if it suits your purposes.

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Originally Posted by John83

The first was to say there was no reason to derail the thread, and the second was a criticism of how the thread was derailed. But sure, take them out of context if it suits your purposes.

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Nah - we were both making the same point. I've taken nothing out of context and whole-heartedly agree with your observation and what you've taken from the discussion re. the trans discussion v what the thread was originally about. That was the exact point I was making when referencing hate crimes against the transgender's community. Nobody cares about that either.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

What could possibly go wrong?
https://gaysifamily.com/wp-content/u...04/pride1.webp

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What indeed

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

What indeed

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Well - no.

This for me is the problem with using memes in place of discussion. You posted that in response to comments about the UK Supreme Court ruling. I would be fairly sure that had absolutely nothing to do with Trump's decision, so it doesn't prove the point you think it does.

The thing is - Trump is an idiot; we all know that (well, most of us anyway). There may be a good reason for cutting the service btw - there were good reasons for cutting the NHS' gender unit for example - but I don't think Trump has done anything in his time in office to have earned any benefit of the doubt.

But the problem is there's damaging activists on both sides. The discussion here I think started with me criticising people putting pronouns in their emails, on social, etc (while Real Ale, on the other side, said he could fathom a case where it should be compulsory). I recently read Time to Think by Hannah Barnes, the BBC investigative journalist who did a lot of work in the GIDS/Tavistock case. It was in my reading pile anyway; I didn't read it because of this thread - though that said, I'd recommend it to anyone with an interest in this area, which presumably is everyone on this thread. The referrals to GIDS were skyrocketing before it was shut down - but there were people being referred who were using pronouns or identifying as something they weren't simply because it was the trendy thing to do at school for example. There's people who found pronouns were helpful for transitioning - but then very unhelpful for detransitioning, when they realised it was simply a phase they were going through. (In fact, pronouns became a sort of confirmation bias, shutting down discussion on other solutions for the patients)

There was a significant change in treatment outcome - originally there was something like 80% of people presenting were successfully treated with psychological advice in coming to terms not just with their body and changes during puberty, but also with the various comorbidities they had experienced (autism, depression, domestic abuse, sexual abuse - and excessive social media use was often in there too, though I'm not sure if that could count as a comorbidity), but that changed to a situation where staff are bullied for not giving diagnoses of gender dysphoria, and where almost 100% of people put on puberty blockers (which are proscribed to allow people time to think) went on to surgery, which is unheard of in medicine - it implies a clear bias towards pushing people down a pre-ordained path, and a path with pretty much no scientific basis either. (Indeed, there's a class action lawsuit in the brewing)

Interestingly, not only did the Tavistock have big issues with activist staff (effectively they bullied disagreement out of the place such that only activists were welcome), but there was also a strong air of homophobia there too - so no real consideration of the fact that many young people identifying as trans are actually struggling to come to terms with being gay, and indeed many identify as trans because they feel it's more socially acceptable to be trans than to be gay.

That all factors in to a situation where it can be very hard to challenge people who identify as something they're clearly not - and that leads to Crafty's very real-world example he gave earlier, which no-one has engaged with.

So when (reasonable) people criticise the trans movement, those are some of the reasons why. It's not to deny that there are trans people - but it is to say that those who push pronouns, who shut down criticism, who make false equivalences and so on are doing just as much harm as the Trump side of things. And this is a movement which needs to be criticised, for the benefit of those it purports to help.

(The US is much worse btw, as the US tends to be - they'll operate at the drop of a hat, which has obvious repercussions for the patient. In medicine, you pretty much never want to become like the US. Which, of course, is where the pronoun trend started.)

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

That all factors in to a situation where it can be very hard to challenge people who identify as something they're clearly not - and that leads to Crafty's very real-world example he gave earlier, which no-one has engaged with.

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Nobody.
Because it is only being discussed from lofty legal, moral, political, medical and philosophical standpoints.

And what I omitted, or forgot to include, was as well the problem of clearly non, non binary males demanding access to the Ladies, you now have the boyfriends maintaining a clear line of sight to the bathroom while their girl is in there to protect them. Now when they observe the behaviour I'm highlighting, they don't want to discuss rights or pronouns, they want to take teeth out and to be honest I don't blame them. But I don't want that in my place of business, because its bad for business, that simple. You can potentially have a scene where the boyfriend becomes aggressive so has to leave, while the other fella stays calm, and stays in the venue.

Have a think about that lads, is that right ?

As a late night venue, we have semi regular meetings with police and licencing I asked the current licencing PC about this, about a year ago, how to play it, and he couldn't answer me, which is why I welcomed the ruling. Not because of where I am on this morally or personally.

Where I am on this personally, my business partners teenage grand daughter who I have known since she was born, is transitioning. She's not rebelling, she's not on a crusade, she hardly speaks about it, she prefers not to. I have spoken to her once about it when I said, look, I can't pronounce your newly adopted (male) Greek name, so she sat with me until I had the hang of it, I call her / she / they / them / he .... whatever .... I call her that now instead and the world hasn't ended. Sometimes I fcuk up, forget, and call her the name I used for her for well over a decade, the world doesn't end then either. We smile and get on with it.

She is definitely taking it slow and isn't rushing to go down any roads which are difficult to travel back on, but says she will when its time. I believe she will transition, and it will be what is right for her. She is half Greek, her father is Greek Orthodox, not particularly religious, but very traditional, family wise. This is killing him, but he's handling it. He loves his child & we all do, she's with us, loved, supported, accepted and safe.

Everyone should be safe, so now tell me again why this toilets / changing room philosophical debate by people it doesn't really involve is so important ? A safe for all, bathroom / changing room, dressing room is the aim here, or at least it should be.

Republican lawmaker with ectopic pregnancy nearly died amid new Florida abortion laws – but blames the left
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b2775051.html

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Well - no.

This for me is the problem with using memes in place of discussion. You posted that in response to comments about the UK Supreme Court ruling. I would be fairly sure that had absolutely nothing to do with Trump's decision, so it doesn't prove the point you think it does.

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The original point of the strip was that members of the LGBT+ community that supported republicans in removing trans people and drag queens would eventually find themselves targetted, which is happening now with the removal of funding for a dedicated LGBT+ suicide hotline. The relevance of the strip to the UK Supreme Court ruling was that, when you support the targetting of a minority group, eventually your own minority will be targetted.

That is one hell of a leap of logic.

There's quite the difference between "targetting a minority group" and calling out actual and serious medical issues which real people are genuinely facing because of activist viewpoints.

Any trans person I know is just another person trying to find their way in life. The bizarre and harmful narrative that has grown up that trans people are in some way a threat is reminiscent of the hate campaign against gay people a few decades ago.

Just more culture war nonsense and people who should know better are being sucked into it.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

That is one hell of a leap of logic.

There's quite the difference between "targetting a minority group" and calling out actual and serious medical issues which real people are genuinely facing because of activist viewpoints.

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This hotline came about as a result of a law signed by Trump in his first presidency which supprted specialist hotlines for those groups at higher risk of suicide, such as LGBTQ and native Americans.

TBF, closing the LGBTQ suicide hotline does seem to be 'targetting a minority group', and it seems a fairly vindictive move, by people for whom anything they don't like is blinddly tarred as woke ideology, communist, etc.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

This hotline came about as a result of a law signed by Trump in his first presidency which supprted specialist hotlines for those groups at higher risk of suicide, such as LGBTQ and native Americans.

TBF, closing the LGBTQ suicide hotline does seem to be 'targetting a minority group', and it seems a fairly vindictive move, by people for whom anything they don't like is blinddly tarred as woke ideology, communist, etc.

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My point was that tets originally posted the meme in response to the Supreme Court decision, which has nothing at all to do with Trump's decision.

I feel at best the meme was a way of avoiding discussing the issue by taking things off on a separate tangent.

I've no problems accepting Trump is a numpty several times over.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

Any trans person I know is just another person trying to find their way in life. The bizarre and harmful narrative that has grown up that trans people are in some way a threat is reminiscent of the hate campaign against gay people a few decades ago.

Just more culture war nonsense and people who should know better are being sucked into it.

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If the "threat" comment refers to Crafty's post, then I think it's disappointing that so much debate on this matter seems to be an attempt to shut down discussion by deeming it de facto problematic rather than trying to engage in the issues. It's reminiscent of the way the Catholic Church used to operate.

Interesting Post ctp!

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Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke

Nobody.
Because it is only being discussed from lofty legal, moral, political, medical and philosophical standpoints.

And what I omitted, or forgot to include, was as well the problem of clearly non, non binary males demanding access to the Ladies, you now have the boyfriends maintaining a clear line of sight to the bathroom while their girl is in there to protect them. Now when they observe the behaviour I'm highlighting, they don't want to discuss rights or pronouns, they want to take teeth out and to be honest I don't blame them. But I don't want that in my place of business, because its bad for business, that simple. You can potentially have a scene where the boyfriend becomes aggressive so has to leave, while the other fella stays calm, and stays in the venue.

Have a think about that lads, is that right ?

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Just on this what was the boyfriend concerned about exactly? Ladies toilets only have cubicles - I don't get the outrage tbh. I'm not sure highlighting specific examples like this adds too much to the debate either tbh and the political ruling on this is pandering to the right tbh. I do agree on the changing rooms though - maybe its kind of a one size fits all thing.

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Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke

Where I am on this personally, my business partners teenage grand daughter who I have known since she was born, is transitioning. She's not rebelling, she's not on a crusade, she hardly speaks about it, she prefers not to. I have spoken to her once about it when I said, look, I can't pronounce your newly adopted (male) Greek name, so she sat with me until I had the hang of it, I call her / she / they / them / he .... whatever .... I call her that now instead and the world hasn't ended. Sometimes I fcuk up, forget, and call her the name I used for her for well over a decade, the world doesn't end then either. We smile and get on with it.

She is definitely taking it slow and isn't rushing to go down any roads which are difficult to travel back on, but says she will when its time. I believe she will transition, and it will be what is right for her. She is half Greek, her father is Greek Orthodox, not particularly religious, but very traditional, family wise. This is killing him, but he's handling it. He loves his child & we all do, she's with us, loved, supported, accepted and safe.

Everyone should be safe, so now tell me again why this toilets / changing room philosophical debate by people it doesn't really involve is so important ? A safe for all, bathroom / changing room, dressing room is the aim here, or at least it should be.

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Is she suffering from Gender dysphoria - which is a mental illness btw. You should continue to use whatever pronouns you like for her because you don't need to be inclusive about everything that someone believes about themselves. What if she identified as a cat ?

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Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

Interesting Post ctp!



Just on this what was the boyfriend concerned about exactly? Ladies toilets only have cubicles - I don't get the outrage tbh. I'm not sure highlighting specific examples like this adds too much to the debate either tbh and the political ruling on this is pandering to the right tbh. I do agree on the changing rooms though - maybe its kind of a one size fits all thing.



Is she suffering from Gender dysphoria - which is a mental illness btw. You should continue to use whatever pronouns you like for her because you don't need to be inclusive about everything that someone believes about themselves. What if she identified as a cat ?

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If I identified as a Trans-Billionaire ~ ~ Pretty much no-one would go along with it for obvious reasons.

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Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

Interesting Post ctp!



Just on this what was the boyfriend concerned about exactly? Ladies toilets only have cubicles - I don't get the outrage tbh. I'm not sure highlighting specific examples like this adds too much to the debate either tbh and the political ruling on this is pandering to the right tbh. I do agree on the changing rooms though - maybe its kind of a one size fits all thing.



Is she suffering from Gender dysphoria - which is a mental illness btw. You should continue to use whatever pronouns you like for her because you don't need to be inclusive about everything that someone believes about themselves. What if she identified as a cat ?

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It wasn't one boyfriend, if you read back a couple of pages, post 192, I put some detail about my experiences of this in my industry. It isn't a specific example, it became a pattern. I think if girls are complaining ( and they were in some numbers ) about men in the queue for the ladies, men in the cubicle next to them as something they'd prefer wasn't happening, they too should be listened to. It is a one fix for all situations, it fixes some better than others but overall, it gives clarity to certain situations which was needed.

I don't know if she's suffering from GD, I do know her mother is a psychologist who's own birth father transitioned in the 1980's / early 90s, who knows this subject particularly well. I don't feel pressured into referring to her as anything, neither has she ever even brought it up, she's very private about it. What I am trying to get across is it doesn't matter to me, it doesn't affect me and and if somewhere along the line she abandons this, that doesn't actually affect me either.

The cat thing, a little disappointed in you there, you are usually a high quality poster, who I generally agree with.
She's a cool kid, funny, smart, great around the place, who is going through something that looks like no fun at all.

From a sports point of view ~ Have a Trans category and for anyone else that wants to compete in that category ~ That is actually a pretty good idea, even if I have to say so myself.

Perhaps this can also be done with changing-rooms and toilets as well.

Trans are less than 1% of the population for jaysus sake

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Originally Posted by SkStu

Trans are less than 1% of the population for jaysus sake

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Handy medals to be won ~ In my idea !

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Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke

It wasn't one boyfriend, if you read back a couple of pages, post 192, I put some detail about my experiences of this in my industry. It isn't a specific example, it became a pattern. I think if girls are complaining ( and they were in some numbers ) about men in the queue for the ladies, men in the cubicle next to them as something they'd prefer wasn't happening, they too should be listened to. It is a one fix for all situations, it fixes some better than others but overall, it gives clarity to certain situations which was needed.

I don't know if she's suffering from GD, I do know her mother is a psychologist who's own birth father transitioned in the 1980's / early 90s, who knows this subject particularly well. I don't feel pressured into referring to her as anything, neither has she ever even brought it up, she's very private about it. What I am trying to get across is it doesn't matter to me, it doesn't affect me and and if somewhere along the line she abandons this, that doesn't actually affect me either.

The cat thing, a little disappointed in you there, you are usually a high quality poster, who I generally agree with.
She's a cool kid, funny, smart, great around the place, who is going through something that looks like no fun at all.

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I was being facetious CTP based on terminology and phrases already used in this thread. Sorry if that was not clear.

I think your handling of the situation is admirable and exactly what you would expect from a compassionate human being.

I do find the evolution of this thread interesting. The issue is quite complex and you can apply all the logic and read all the articles you like but when you come face to face with the problem not many people are going to refuse to accept someone if they are trans.

I also wonder how that girl will be accepted in their workplace or social settings. if her future colleagues or peers and friends in a work environment decide to display pronouns for example in a display of solidarity with them I wonder will others proclaim them self obsessed tossers. Will they feel comfortable in some environments or will they not only have to try and deal with the day to day working life but have to hide who they are as well. Life is tough enough.

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Originally Posted by seanfhear

Handy medals to be won ~ In my idea !

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Cartman entering the special Olympics jumps to mind

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

Cartman entering the special Olympics jumps to mind

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:D

There’s merit in a trans olympics like the special olympics. Separate event like the paras or specials (or winter) :D

I draw the line at separate changing rooms or jacks for the one percenters. Will Crafty have to pay for a new bathroom in his place? He won’t like that…

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Originally Posted by SkStu

I draw the line at separate changing rooms or jacks for the one percenters. Will Crafty have to pay for a new bathroom in his place? He won’t like that…

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The second there's a grant which covers it & a law which requires it, I'll be busy on the paperwork applying to somehow facilitate a change such as this in what is a listed building ( where change is legally restricted due to it being protected )

I will do this happily to facilitate a third type of bathroom, a Unisex / a go in if you're happy to type of thing which I guarantee you, will be full of **** head blokes, the very worst kind of blokes who have gone there hoping to bother a woman. A woman who identifies as a man. Who won't be in there.

The minute there's a grant for that, I'll get the biro out same day.

@ Real Ale Madrid


No bother.

& to the last part, I would be cautiously hopeful she'll be just fine. I say that as the crew here number about 20, some full, some part time, we have two they / thems at the moment and have had as many as four. I began to notice this on applicant CVs some time before covid. Thats a high percentage in a twenty person crew.

The others, all late teen / early twenties do not care about this, its not rejected, its not spoken about in an acceptance way. It just is, and it bothers none of them I notice.

What bothers them (& me) is reliability, and pulling your weight on the shift, those who do are part of the group dynamics within about three weeks, no matter what they identify as. Those who don't are shunned until they move along. The two current non binary ones have been here some time now, they're doing fine.

It seems to be perceived totally differently by older generations than those actually living within it. I prefer the younger ones take on it all. A simple live & let live. It also seems to be a political football with a religious tinge to be kicked around at the moment with a lot of mis kicks.

My friend teaches art at a local school & says the same, they don't see what the fuss is about, they just accept each other.

My favourite, was Nicole // Cole pre covid. She could arrive as Nicole, and on her break, remove the make up & dress, come back in a shirt & braces with her hair slicked back flat, as Cole. It was fantastically ridiculous. Always turned up, on time & worked hard. Customers loved her / him. The crew did too.

The only problem and problem makers I've come across in this are a certain strain of sad leery middle aged men and the behaviours I've gone into previously. And politicians handling the wording of this too harshly in an era rife with polarisation already.

Anyway, speech over.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

Cartman entering the special Olympics jumps to mind

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Well when you look at Switzerland's women's football team losing 7-1 to Luzern's U15s boys team last week, I think it's not entirely comparable.

Certainly males with some sort of sporting background (that is to say, not Cartman!) appear to have a significant advantage if they transition. Lia Thomas is the obvious example, but Hannah Mouncey (Australian Olympic handball) and Laurel Hubbard (New Zealand weightlifter) are other examples of mediocre male sportsmen becoming very good female sportsmen.

In that regard, I'm minded of Seb Coe saying he favours "fairness over inclusion"

Of course if trans people are rare, trans sportspeople are even rarer. I think the bigger issue really is the treatment of trans people, which I've discussed at some length in thread (though no-one has really picked up on it), because it covers (you could assume) all trans people, and many more who are incorrectly diagnosed as trans by activists.

Then you look at stuff like this ("More than one in five Gen Z adults — those born between 1997 and 2006 — identify as LGBTQ+") then there has to be an element that people are trying on these identities almost like clothes. I think there's an element that maybe we on this forum - who I'm going to assume mostly aren't Gen Z generation - don't quite appreciate the extent of this, whereas it's likely to explain the issues Crafty is seeing (I'm assuming here his clientele would be mostly Gen Z)