Republic of Ireland V Lithuania - Tuesday, 29th March 2022 - Friendly

[QUOTE=Snapshot;2106900]

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Originally Posted by TonyD

Both good players but very different. Conroy was slight and essentially a winger while Treacy a rugged and aggressive striker. He was used as a foil up front alongside Don Givens. Conroy was definitely more skilful and elusive - he went round defenders, Treacy through them. A good touchstone for the era was Ireland's famous 3-0 defeat of USSR at Dalymount in 1974 in a European Nations qualifier where Treacy did the spadework for a Givens hat-trick and 18-year-old Liam Brady made a sensational debut. Conroy didn't play (maybe unplayed 12th man, maybe injured as unfortunately he often was), but it would hardly be a surprise that Giles preferred the no-holds-barred Treacy.

Ireland line-up: Paddy Roche, Jimmy Holmes, Paddy Mulligan, Terry Mancini, Joe Kinnear, Liam Brady, John Giles, Steve Heighway, Mick Martin, Don Givens, Ray Treacy.

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Remember it well. Probably the game that kick started our emergence as a decent international team. The game is on YouTube and I’d strongly advise younger supporters on the forum to check it out. This is where it all began. The other selection enigma was Giles’s preference for Martin over Gerry Daly. Daly was keeping Martin out of the Man Utd team and was a lovely footballer. Once again, I suppose it was the blend of guile and grit that Giles was after.

It's somewhat before my time, but I've got lots of books I've collected about Irish football over a period of years, and the impression you're given about Giles' reign is that there was a lot of slow, ponderous possession football for the sake of it but with little end result.

Is that a fair assessment?

I've also read that Giles had ambitions to turn Shamrock Rovers into a European footballing powerhouse. I wonder if this seemed at all realistic at the time.

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Originally Posted by Trequartista20

I've also read that Giles had ambitions to turn Shamrock Rovers into a European footballing powerhouse. I wonder if this seemed at all realistic at the time.

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I don't have a full answer for this, but I can think of two important factors here: (1) crowds here had been quite high in relatively recent memory, though they were declining as the TV audience ate the league's dinner and (2) TV money wasn't the huge factor it is today. Those two factors would mean the gap between the league here and elsewhere would have been smaller than today.

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Originally Posted by third policeman

Remember it well. Probably the game that kick started our emergence as a decent international team. The game is on YouTube and I’d strongly advise younger supporters on the forum to check it out. This is where it all began. The other selection enigma was Giles’s preference for Martin over Gerry Daly. Daly was keeping Martin out of the Man Utd team and was a lovely footballer. Once again, I suppose it was the blend of guile and grit that Giles was after.

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Yes, I agree. Mick Martin and Gerry Daly were both ex-Bohemians and signed for United. Martin, a son of legendary Con Martin, was a more Giles-style player - in other words, when he got the ball his first instinct was to pass it to Giles! He was solid and reliable. Daly, with a build not unlike Terry Conroy, was more talented and skilful, and enjoyed a good spell at United with nearly 150 starts and nearly 50 goals. He won near 50 caps. He then went to Derby County and Coventry - both solid First Division clubs at the time - before drifting down the leagues. Martin had a good spell at Newcastle before linking up with Giles at West Brom.

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Originally Posted by Trequartista20

It's somewhat before my time, but I've got lots of books I've collected about Irish football over a period of years, and the impression you're given about Giles' reign is that there was a lot of slow, ponderous possession football for the sake of it but with little end result.

Is that a fair assessment?

I've also read that Giles had ambitions to turn Shamrock Rovers into a European footballing powerhouse. I wonder if this seemed at all realistic at the time.

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Originally Posted by John83

I don't have a full answer for this, but I can think of two important factors here: (1) crowds here had been quite high in relatively recent memory, though they were declining as the TV audience ate the league's dinner and (2) TV money wasn't the huge factor it is today. Those two factors would mean the gap between the league here and elsewhere would have been smaller than today.

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Giles linked with the Kilcoyne family in an ambitious and controversial plan to make Shamrock Rovers a club worthy of competing successfully in European competition. He brought in, among others, Ray Treacy, Paddy Mulligan and Eamonn Dunphy as players and mentors. The plan included a full-time set-up and turning Glenmalure Park into a 50,000 all-seater stardium. Grandiose talk of an academy of excellence and other innovations were also touted. But it failed because of its elitist nature as clubs feared losing recruitment ability, being unable to compete at league level and becoming little more than feeder clubs for Rovers. The media also savaged it and Giles was accused in some attacks of being financially motivated. Ireland's top sports writer at the time - Con Houlihan - was a constant critic of Giles and the plan. Eventually the Kilcoynes wobbled in the face of criticism and other major business and legal problems. It all fell apart - it was classic pie in the sky but an interesting time nonetheless.

It’s interesting that no other English clubs were interested in Giles as manager after his time at West Brom. Ok maybe in those times an Irish Manager was not the “ “ fashionable “ “ (due to, Troubles / Civil War in the North and of course probably anti Irish-ness generally)

Still not many Irish managers in Britain especially from the Republic of Ireland ! !

Thanks Snapshot. Great knowledge.

[QUOTE=third policeman;2106895]

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Originally Posted by TonyD

He signed Treacy, but not Grealish. Greyish was signed by Atkinson. You are right about Treacy going to Rovers. Never understood why Giles favoured Treacy over Terry Conroy when he was Ireland manager.

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Ah, I misread your post and thought you were talking about Treacy. I seem to remember Conroy getting a good few games under Giles, but I was pretty young at the time, so could be misremembering.

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Originally Posted by seanfhear

It’s interesting that no other English clubs were interested in Giles as manager after his time at West Brom. Ok maybe in those times an Irish Manager was not the “ “ fashionable “ “ (due to, Troubles / Civil War in the North and of course probably anti Irish-ness generally)

Still not many Irish managers in Britain especially from the Republic of Ireland ! !

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I think it was more the case that Giles wasn’t interested in managing in England again. (famously Don Revie recommended him to the Board at Leeds to take over when he got the England job.) He was fed up of Directors. He gave an example of when he wanted to sign a young Paul Mariner, but was told the club didn’t have the money. Then the directors wanted to sign someone else, and miraculously the money could be found for that. That kind of thing convinced Giles he was wasting his time, and a major appeal of the Rovers project for him was that he’d have a stake in the club. Sadly I think the plan was just too ambitious for its time.

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Originally Posted by TonyD

I think it was more the case that Giles wasn’t interested in managing in England again. He was fed up of Directors. He gave an example of when he wanted to sign a young Paul Mariner, but was told the club didn’t have the money. Then the directors wanted to sign someone else, and miraculously the money could be found for that. That kind of thing convinced Giles he was wasting his time, and a major appeal of the Rovers project for him was that he’d have a stake in the club. Sadly I think the plan was just too ambitious for its time.

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Mariner would have been a Great Buy. Fine Player for Ipswich and was it Arsenal for awhile ~ And England of course. Died last year, RIP.

e
He did play a few games including the 1 -1 draw with England at WEmbley when we played them off the park. Midfield of Giles, Daly and Brady and front three of Givens, Conroy and Heighway. Possibly the best footballing side ever put out to play for Ireland. Again the highlights are on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHf5ii4_66A

Heighway was unplayable.

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Originally Posted by third policeman

e
He did play a few games including the 1 -1 draw with England at WEmbley when we played them off the park. Midfield of Giles, Daly and Brady and front three of Givens, Conroy and Heighway. Possibly the best footballing side ever put out to play for Ireland. Again the highlights are on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHf5ii4_66A

Heighway was unplayable.

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I wonder why did Steve Heighway Not play for England ? He was a hell of a player for Liverpool and I assume he could have got a British Passport. Lets put it this way if Steve Heighway was around today then England would be really after him.

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Originally Posted by seanfhear

I wonder why did Steve Heighway Not play for England ? He was a hell of a player for Liverpool and I assume he could have got a British Passport. Lets put it this way if Steve Heighway was around today then England would be really after him.

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I think we capped him pretty much straight after he signed for Liverpool. Born in Dublin but moved to England when he was fairly young. Where his parents English?

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Originally Posted by third policeman

I think we capped him pretty much straight after he signed for Liverpool. Born in Dublin but moved to England when he was fairly young. Where his parents English?

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I think without checking that his parents were English and his father was working as a diplomat when Steve was born in Dublin. So he is unusual in that he was from an English family and yet he ended up playing for Ireland. I wonder was he a late developer or something. England were a bit careless in those days but Heighway could have been a hell of a player for them.

Just watched the video there ~ Not bad highlights. I often wonder if Paddy Mulligan / Mick Martin were ever young men ( wink ) or ever looked like young men (wink) or were they just born looking like that. I suppose it shows my age in that, I never remember them looking like young men.

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Originally Posted by Trequartista20

It's somewhat before my time, but I've got lots of books I've collected about Irish football over a period of years, and the impression you're given about Giles' reign is that there was a lot of slow, ponderous possession football for the sake of it but with little end result.

Is that a fair assessment?

I've also read that Giles had ambitions to turn Shamrock Rovers into a European footballing powerhouse. I wonder if this seemed at all realistic at the time.

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I visited Dundee on work a while back and thought how the hell did this place, a fraction the size of Dublin, have two teams that got to late stage European competition. Back then it wasn’t that fanciful. Stefan Szymanski, football economics professor and proponent of a European Superleague, frequently cites Dublin’s lack of a leading European team as a reason to move away from the traditional structure.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I visited Dundee on work a while back and thought how the hell did this place, a fraction the size of Dublin, have two teams that got to late stage European competition. Back then it wasn’t that fanciful. Stefan Szymanski, football economics professor and proponent of a European Superleague, frequently cites Dublin’s lack of a leading European team as a reason to move away from the traditional structure.

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I have floated that idea a couple of times and incurred the wrath of the entire LOI confraternity. Whether it’s a European League or a Celtic League or simply a rejigged All Ireland structure, having viable and competitive professional teams would benefit our international team as well, but it’s not going to happen. Turkeys and Christmas….

We were all debating the All Ireland league quite a bit in the recent past and it wouldn't exactly be anathema to a lot of LoI fans so I'm surprised you've been met with such hostility.

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Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

We were all debating the All Ireland league quite a bit in the recent past and it wouldn't exactly be anathema to a lot of LoI fans so I'm surprised you've been met with such hostility.

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The sticking point was club mergers. I suggested that too many clubs in Dublin for example was a barrier to sustainability.

The problem with your argument is that an All-Ireland league isn't going to result in a "leading European team" per the original post. Nor is merging Bohs and Shels.

The reason people tend to oppose these suggestions is that they're made without any sort of analysis as to how they'll lead to the projected outcome

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

The problem with your argument is that an All-Ireland league isn't going to result in a "leading European team" per the original post. Nor is merging Bohs and Shels.

The reason people tend to oppose these suggestions is that they're made without any sort of analysis as to how they'll lead to the projected outcome

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I respectfully disagree, but I genuinely wasn’t intending to reopen that particular can of worms.

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Originally Posted by Trequartista20

I've also read that Giles had ambitions to turn Shamrock Rovers into a European footballing powerhouse. I wonder if this seemed at all realistic at the time.

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You are correct about that. I was living in Ireland at the time and remember Giles's return from England, to Rovers. He did in fact have big plans for Rovers but he quickly became disillusioned by (a) the negativity of people in Ireland towards his visions - a common theme at the time and (b) the state of the pitches in Ireland. The momentum went out of the plan and eventually another dream for Irish domestic football died.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

You are correct about that. I was living in Ireland at the time and remember Giles's return from England, to Rovers. He did in fact have big plans for Rovers but he quickly became disillusioned by (a) the negativity of people in Ireland towards his visions - a common theme at the time and (b) the state of the pitches in Ireland. The momentum went out of the plan and eventually another dream for Irish domestic football died.

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Surprising that Eamonn Dunphy did not sort everything out (wink)

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Originally Posted by third policeman

The sticking point was club mergers. I suggested that too many clubs in Dublin for example was a barrier to sustainability.

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Well there you go. As reasonable as that might seem to someone who doesn't support Irish club football, approaching the argument with people who love their clubs from an angle that involves their clubs disappearing isn't going to be taken well. Lots of debate on the All Ireland league on the LoI section of the forum. I know plenty of people in favour so if you wanted to chat about that I don't think you'd be met with hostility. As Stu says, people night disagree on the outcome of it but "the entire league of Ireland confraternity" won't attack you!

Back on topic though, I'm even more annoyed now that Ronan wasn't in the squad and I think we agree there? Kenny needs to adjust his policy of patience when it comes to bringing players into the set up. We don't have that many games to play with options.

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Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

Well there you go. As reasonable as that might seem to someone who doesn't support Irish club football, approaching the argument with people who love their clubs from an angle that involves their clubs disappearing isn't going to be taken well. Lots of debate on the All Ireland league on the LoI section of the forum. I know plenty of people in favour so if you wanted to chat about that I don't think you'd be met with hostility. As Stu says, people night disagree on the outcome of it but "the entire league of Ireland confraternity" won't attack you!

Back on topic though, I'm even more annoyed now that Ronan wasn't in the squad and I think we agree there? Kenny needs to adjust his policy of patience when it comes to bringing players into the set up. We don't have that many games to play with options.

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I’ve long since given up on offering thoughts on restructuring Irish domestic soccer, and I wasn’t being literal when referencing the “entire LOI confraternity.” We definitely agree on Ronan. Noticed he was MoM for St Mirren again yesterday according to BBC. I think he’s one of those players who will be more effective playing at a higher level. The paradox is that it’s probably his stature / physique that counts against him getting a chance at a higher level, when his technical ability will probably count more there in any case. Similar in that respect to Wes who could have been playing at a higher level much earlier in his career.

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Originally Posted by third policeman

I’ve long since given up on offering thoughts on restructuring Irish domestic soccer, and I wasn’t being literal when referencing the “entire LOI confraternity.” We definitely agree on Ronan. Noticed he was MoM for St Mirren again yesterday according to BBC. I think he’s one of those players who will be more effective playing at a higher level. The paradox is that it’s probably his stature / physique that counts against him getting a chance at a higher level, when his technical ability will probably count more there in any case. Similar in that respect to Wes who could have been playing at a higher level much earlier in his career.

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Don't take this the wrong way, but maybe you could go to a few games? Bums on seats will get us closer to having teams compete at higher levels in Europe before any great restructuring will. There's good people trying to move the game on with limited funds and you could always become a member of a club which would give your opinions on any restructuring a lot more weight.

Will have to start watching Ronans games. I saw him for the 21s and he looked great but I'm not sure where he is playing now or where he would slot into the Irish side.

I'm sure someone here can offer a bit of insight?

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