I've also been sceptical about the high praise Bazunu's drawing here, and I just want to clarify that what I'm talking about is the here and now, and not his potential. He could be a great keeper yet. I think he isn't, and there's no shame in that at 19.
Well we disagree on the relative use of judging him on being ready or not right now. He's not playing now because he is ready, he's playing because we need him due our 1st and 2nd choices being out. The whole team is inexperienced and learning. His ceiling is much higher than the others in my (limited) opinion and he's only made easily fixed errors. Rushes of blood to the head as you say. He will go in, study the tape, be calmer next time etc. For the goals I'm sure he will work on his positioning. This is a lad who was studying Kieran Sadliers penalties on the bus to the Cork game...before saving one. He learns and applies.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
IF you were judging him more on his suitability to be #2 or 3 would you say he is ahead or behind Travers?
And yes of course I have a bias. I'm a huge fan of the kid. He was absolutely stellar for us. But maybe Rovers fans also know a bit more about him and see the errors as opportunities for growth rather than signs of weakness. The more he plays the fewer mistakes he will make...to a point of course...even Randolph makes enough errors that he doesn't actually even play first team football......
Bazunu way ahead of Travers for me. Travers had his big audition and cost us at least one goal, Bazunu didn't cost us any, made some decent saves and looked like a guy who will get better and better.
Absolutely. Add Westwood in there and it's our first three choices being out. That's a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
Is his ceiling higher than Travers/O'Hara? Probably is, yep. Will he study and learn from his mistakes? I'd bloody hope so. But that's all the future, and I've always been talking about the now. Well, it's now the recent past, in fact.
I said at the start of the week that I saw Travers, O'Hara and Bazunu as much of a muchness; I was worried about all of them. I don't think the relative views of Travers and Bazunu - one being slated and the other being highly praised - are an accurate reflection of their performances to be honest. Yes, Travers cost a goal, but Bazunu was lucky he didn't cost at least one. Is he better because the opposition were poorer and didn't take advantage? Would Serbia have teased bigger mistakes out of Bazunu?Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
If we take it that Westwood is kind of saying he's not really interested, then the squad for Portugal should in my view be Randolph (but I would like to see him starting at club level), Kelleher (he's in an unfortunate position of being number two at a top top club; he'll learn from that, but he could do with a loan spell) and...I don't know. The three remaining options are all lower League One level right now, and it's hard to put one above the other. Kenny has indirectly said (when commenting on McGeady) that League One isn't good enough, and I'd be inclined to agree. But the Portugal game is five months away, and the hope would be that all four young keepers will have kicked on by then - although O'Hara seems to have been dropped at Burton, which puts him at a distinct disadvantage. Where Bazunu and Travers will be by the time of the next match, I can't really say.
There's no option there that I'd be entirely happy with tbh. It's a poor squad we have at the moment, as I think has been said once or twice.
I'd be certain enough he knew what he was doing there! But yeah, overall he rode his luck. He even got away with a Bernd Leno pass straight to an Qatari player's feet. I like the cut of his jib though, so to speak.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
He has a couple of big brass ones, I'll give him that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Travers and Bazunu have stuff to work on as our opposition showed them.
Bazunu's 19.. and there's lad writing him off.
19... and lads at Foot know more about his potential than top scouts/coaches at Man City..
In goalkeeping terms he's not just inexperienced.. he's a baby. It could be five years or more before he even gets back to City
But for now.. its pretty heartening to think we could have a goalkeeping choice between the City and Liverpool keeper in the near future
Show me one poster writing Bazunu off.
Whatever about anything else I think it was pretty clear the differences between Travers and Bazunu in presence alone. I said before Serbia game that their respective experience was irrelevant between them and I think that was shown to be true.
I think Bazunu if he was continued to be picked would give us a few years of heart attacks at times mixed with some brilliance. He definitely has something about him that is Star quality, I just wish we could stick him up front!
Belated thanks for this considered reply - a good read. Unfortunately I was entangled by the slings and arrows of the easily outraged at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungle
In response to pineapple_stu....
Hang on - Serbia played against Travers. So they teased what they could out of a rookie keeper. Travers was arguably at fault for two goals though I'd only blame him for one really- the lob. How is it relevant to ask a hypothetical question about Bazunu being in goals instead? You think Serbia would have targeted him more? For what it's worth I don't think he gets caught out for the lob, possibly even the header which he probably would have come flying out to claim.... We saw him save a more audacious but less predictable lob against Lux. He was backtracking as soon as it become a risk whereas Travers stayed rooted in no mans land. It was one of two or three great saves that night that seem to be getting forgotten for whatever reason. Far more positives to his performance than negatives for me that night. Qatar was a bit different as I think he took a few more risks but again I think he did well overall.
Playing in League 1 on loan doesn't always mean the player is League 1 level does it? You've brought up his goals conceded whilst he plays behind the worst team in that league as well. I'd class both as fairly irrelevant here. Buffon would concede if he was at Rochdale.
All in all though I think we are just judging him on different scales and reacting to different things i.e. you think he's being overly praised and I think he's being unfairly criticized...both can be true given the number of posts/opinions... I think he did really well for a 19 year old playing his first games in a ridiculously high pressure environment. I'd make him first choice to be honest. Randolph has bailed us out with some great saves but it's like playing a man down when we try to play it around the back. Kelleher might be the one but I haven't seen him play.
When you reply with answers to questions that aren't asked, and showing little appreciation of the problems at hand, with zero indications of any solutions, you're not so much being entangled by the easily outraged, than distracting yourself while shaving the arrows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapshot
Don't you know that you are only allowed to "write off" or "over-hype" young Irish players?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
My personal favourites are when people "write off" a player that they think is "over-hyped". There's a real skill to those posts.
On Bazunu, I don't think his performances were perfect and I think George Hamilton on Rte managed to "ooh" and "aah" every time Bazunu touched the ball. It was a bit much. But I think he did well for his age and experience so if he can take confidence and learnings from the experience then it's a win-win. He seems to have serious potential for a keeper of that age.
What were the unasked questions?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingdom
I think it's a little harsh on Travers. Though I agree Bazunu appeared to have the greater presence/confidence, there's no real comparison between what they had to deal with. Travers had a string of quality Tadic crosses coming towards 'his zone' basically from the off in Serbia, Bazunu could feel his way into the game against Luxembourg pretty comfortably, so no surprise he looked more assured. Maybe he would have regardless, but we don't know this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Bazunu's mistakes were far worse than Travers', he was just lucky enough to get away with them, which changes the narrative completely as we know. He probably will be the better long-term option of the two but I certainly wouldn't be basing it on what we've seen over the past week to be honest.
It goes without saying that both are young and have their whole careers to improve, that really shouldn't need to be pointed out in every post without some posters jumping on it!
Because you specifically asked me to compare Bazunu and Travers. I said before the matches that they were both League One level keepers and I didn't see much between them. But if you ask the question, then I have to point out that there's not a lot I can go on by way of direct comparison - hence the point that Bazunu (who has made his own errors out of nothing, by and large) could well have played worse than Travers in the game we were under most pressure in.Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
Actually, that's no true on Travers - he started backtracking as soon as it became a risk too, but the issue was he'd strayed far too far off his line and couldn't get back in time. I don't agree the Lux lob was more audacious though. Mitrovic's lob was far better executed - the flight of the ball was lower, giving less time to react, and it was into the far corner, meaning the keeper had more distance to make up. But certainly Bazunu dealt better with that threat, sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
They're not forgotten. Stutts put one of them down to luck actually. But keepers are there to make saves. Travers' save v Serbia is also forgotten. It's when they make mistakes that you can really judge them.Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
This argument - or variants on it - has come up a few times now and I've not seen anything to back up the idea that Bazunu is a great goalkeeper playing with ten incompetents. For example (and happy to be corrected on any of these stats of course), in 28 league games, he's been named on the League One Team of the Week once. He's won the club's PotM award once, and that was in a month where their only goal was at 4-0 down, so effectively half the team had no chance straight off. Rochdals have one Young Player of the Month award winner this season, but it wasn't Bazunu. The thread on him here notes nothing much else other than two poor games, one against Swindon and one against Fleetwood; his error against Swindon in passing straight to an opposition player was replicated against Qatar, so I don't think you can simply say "He'll study it and learn from it and not make the same mistake again"Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
So I'm happy to say that he's League One standard. And again, that's good for a developing 19-year-old, but there's no point making him out to be better than he is at the moment. And it's not to have a dig at the guy either, but just to bring some balance into this discussion.
Nonsense. He bailed us out when we had three keepers injured. He's not remotely ready to be first choice. Honestly, take off the green and white blinkers and you'll see that. For me, the Qatar game in particular was Kevin Kilbane in Iceland stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
Having seen little of either I said last week I'd prefer Travers over Bazunu simply because I assumed his presence would be superior. I couldn't have been more wrong. Bazunu has that star quality factor alright.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Is that assurance such a great thing though if it makes you come for balls you're never going to reach or make casual passes straight to the opposition CF? He had a couple of ropey moments against Lux but overall a very promising performance, it simply wasn't backed up against Qatar. If it was a more established keeper we'd be within our rights to call it calamitous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I think Travers made the defenders nervous, I don't think Bazunu did. We're talking about an ethereal thing here - presence, personality, confidence. A keeper's demeanour spreads to his defence.
On a wholly objective basis I think he demonstrated flaws and made errors, but I also think you could sense that his defence was happy with him. The defence likes Randolph too, yet he was blessed not to give away a pen vs Wales and he actually threw the ball straight to Pukki for a goal. That WAS calamitous, but it didn't seriously cause anyone to think Randolph wasn't good enough, unless you're Kingdom :)
The kid has balls of steel. I’m sure he’ll learn from the mistakes and there is no doubt that his development coaches at Man City will dissect every bit of action with him on the two games. Futures bright with him and Kellehar, they have the potential to be two of the top keepers in Europe. Let’s get the rest sorted.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Randolph had enough in the bank though, chalk and cheese I think, and has exuded calm on many occasions taking the pressure off of his defenders, due to his actions as well as his general presence/assurance. No point in having one without the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
If I'm a CB and my nineteen year old keeper is regularly coming into no man's land and casually kicks the ball to the opposition CF, I'm going to be pretty nervous. Coleman bailed him out v Lux and I think it was Duffy the other night, I doubt they were thinking "he looks confident though so I feel assured".
Ah I think that's unhelpful to be honest. There's a long way to go for both of them, and coming through a top club is no guarantee of success. I remember UCD playing Liverpool's academy in 2015 and Lawrence Vigouroux was the Liverpool keeper. Subsequently got an international call-up by Chile. At 27, he's now at Leyton Orient. Very few of that squad went anywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by lofty9
The top academies are meat farms, and very few make it at the absolute top level (kind of by definition, because not everyone can play at the top top level). There's more interest in making money by selling players than in bringing players through to the first team.
I think the test of both players will be when they leave Liverpool/City. Then we'll see where they're going to go.
Kieran O'Hara was on the Manchester United books his whole life until last year, currently can't get into the Burton Albion side.
Who actually thinks and has been saying Qatar are decent, go back over their results, bar the Asian cup and there's some very poor results. They are a poor side, but so are we are the minute.
Having watched the Qatar game, no improvement from game 2 to 11. Still all the old issues, and doesn't look like any being resolved either. Kenny got it wrong with shunting all the older players out.
Also we've moved out some of the older players from the starting line up, to be replaced by some younger players. I haven't seen anything to suggest any of knight, molumby or even cullen to be better than hendrick or brady.
Bazunu has an awful lot to learn, but hes very confident. Still haven't seen enough to judge either way.
I don't get this consistent short kickouts with two players in the box either. Its nonsense, or as the british say "its a nonsense"
Qatar game showed our individual and team inconsistent performances again.
Potential means nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
I’ve higher hopes for Bazunu than Travers, partly because he’s already played a lot more senior games that will accelerate his development. The rushes of blood to the head in his two caps were probably inexperience, but might they hint that his reading of situations is more advanced than his current ability? The head tells him its possible, but body strength or positional awareness or higher level experience are a little behind. If that makes sense? He looks like he has character and personality without the swagger and that's really promising.
Maybe now that keepers have become monochromatic and dull as ditch water he’s a throwback to the eccentric keeper that some of us of a particular vintage will remember – the likes of Bruce Grobbelaar, René Higuita, Jorge Campos, Fabien Barthez. All as mad as a bag of frogs, and all likely to pull off the kind of madcap, heart-stopping moments that Bazunu treated us to. I’d happily take the crazy if he became half as good as any of them!
Actually, just to put that academy team in perspective, Liverpool used 13 players against us -
Lawrence Vigoloux - 0 senior Liverpool games, now at Leyton Orient (L2)
Connor Randall - 8 games, now at Ross County (SPL)
Matthew Virtue-Thick - 0 games, now at Blackpool (L1)
Rafa Paez - 0 games, now at Istra (Croatian top flight)
Tom Brewitt - 0 games, now at Tacoma Defiance (US second tier)
Sam Hart - 0 games, now at Southend (L2)
Sergi Canos - 1 game, now at Brentford (Champ)
Will Marsh - 0 games, now at Northwich (North West Counties League)
Madger Gomez - 0 games, now at Doncaster (L1)
Jack Dunn - 0 games, now at Warrington Town (Northern Premier League)
Jerome Sinclair - 5 games, now at CSKA Sofia (Bulgaria)
Cameron Brannagan - 9 games, now at Oxford (L1)
Samed Yesil - 2 games, now at Homburg in the German fourth tier
That's just one academy team picked at random - and it's a convenient time in the past that you can properly evaluate the players' subsequent careers - but you'll find a fair few like that I'd say.
Always thought that was dull as dishwater, but ditch water could be pretty dull, more brown looking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eminence Grise
Yes agreed bazunu is a try hard, trying hard all the time to do the right thing. Hopefully the brain and the body work in unison better in the future.
I agree with this, Travers just got punished for his by better opposition. Both keepers made bad decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Hopefully they were just over-eagerness by players looking to show the kind of commanding presence and decision-making that claims the GK shirt.
I agree with you on your evaluation of Bazunu's potential, but I don't think I agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eminence Grise
The Qatar incident, he starts to come for the through ball, then stops and takes a step back, then comes again and commits. So he's going back on himself. I think that's just poor reading of the game. Again, he'll learn, but in the meantime I think it should be called as it is, not as we'd like to see it.
Bazunu = potentially Shay Given
Travers = potentially Colin Doyle.
Fair? :-)
Prior to the 3 games, there wasn’t much to choose between Travers and Bazunu. But now after, my preference going forward between the two would be Bazunu.
Travers is on a downwards trajectory. At one point he was ahead of Ramsdale (now at Sheffield United), given the opportunity to be ahead of Begovic at club level, and given the opportunity to be ahead of Bazunu at international level. He has not taken opportunities afforded him. Not to disrespect Colin Doyle but its déjà vu with Travers.
Bazunu just feels more assured, composed, and confident compared to Travers (all intangible and subjective I know). But he has taken opportunities afforded him so far in his career and he does have an upwards career trajectory relative to Travers.
Hypothetically, just say the Qatar game was the first of the three and went the same as it did the other night. Would Bazunu have kept his place for, say, Serbia as the second match? I'm don't think he would or should have, and therefore wouldn't have taken his opportunity. And actually Bazunu has probably missed his opportunity to potentially leapfrog Kelleher in the pecking order.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Now that is a doozy of a question. Brilliant context to it all Del.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
I don’t know to be honest, and in my gut I’d probably veer towards no, he wouldn’t have kept his place.
Bazunu did enough in his first start to retain his position - he gained trust. Travers did not.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
I don't rate Kelleher (at all) and my preference here is also Bazunu but Bazunu behind Randolph (and Westwood if available).Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
I think Bazunu would have been given the Qatar game, Travers the Luxembourg game, and then whoever played better would play against SerbiaQuote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Did he do enough in his second start to retain his position?Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
There is no way you can see he was composed while he was running out to the edge of his box like a headless chicken unfortunately. Or passing the ball straight to opposition players.
It's both, ditch water was the original version. This Rossie is glad to hear plumbing has reached Mayo all the same.:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
That's quite alright! You don't have to - though I'm not sure how an Ireland thread that disintegrates into mild-mannered disagreement will survive! I'm not entirely convinced either which is why I put it as a question.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Yes. Would you put Travers in ahead of Bazunu if there was a game today?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
But I can when I'm comparing to Travers.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu