New owners at dundalk

I can't see a reason to be negative about this...dundalk have no assets so peak6 can hardly leave it any worse then it is....
If they walk away with the club in debt then you restart as a new club again ...in a worst case scenario.
So on the positive front possible major investment and a chance to dominate the league....negative....back to square 1.
European football is not the only potential reward either...a team dominating a league with players on long term contracts gets transfer fees for their players and also attract better players.
As a rovers fan I would be worried as to how we compete with their budget going forward.

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

As a rovers fan I would be worried as to how we compete with their budget going forward.

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This is at the centre of much of this thread. Dundalk fans are hopeful that this takeover will be a success and lead the club on to a sustained period of success but this isnt taken as a given and we are collectively worried about the potential fall down the line, have said so many times yet doomsday warnings are repeated over irrespective of our acknowledgement of the possibile doom! Many fans of other clubs are understandibly worried about the ability to compete if this project is a success; It is though being presented as a worry about the future welfare of Dundalk FC. While there may be some genuine concern for a LoI club and potential future difficulties I think quite a few are grabbing the popcorn and throwing out 'careful now' like soundbites, but are quietly hoping this ends up a fail rather than a change in the fortunes for investment in a LoI club. As WH had a post singled out for honesty earlier in the thread, I think sbgawa deserves similar credit.

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

This is at the centre of much of this thread. Dundalk fans are hopeful that this takeover will be a success and lead the club on to a sustained period of success but this isnt taken as a given and we are collectively worried about the potential fall down the line, have said so many times yet doomsday warnings are repeated over irrespective of our acknowledgement of the possibile doom! Many fans of other clubs are understandibly worried about the ability to compete if this project is a success; It is though being presented as a worry about the future welfare of Dundalk FC. While there may be some genuine concern for a LoI club and potential future difficulties I think quite a few are grabbing the popcorn and throwing out 'careful now' like soundbites, but are quietly hoping this ends up a fail rather than a change in the fortunes for investment in a LoI club. As WH had a post singled out for honestly earlier in the thread, I think sbgawa deserves similar credit.

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I think you're doing most a disservice here.

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

I can't see a reason to be negative about this...dundalk have no assets so peak6 can hardly leave it any worse then it is....
If they walk away with the club in debt then you restart as a new club again ...in a worst case scenario.
So on the positive front possible major investment and a chance to dominate the league....negative....back to square 1.
European football is not the only potential reward either...a team dominating a league with players on long term contracts gets transfer fees for their players and also attract better players.
As a rovers fan I would be worried as to how we compete with their budget going forward.

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Aren't you the same guy who thought there was nothing to worry about with the Bray/Athlone scenarios too....?

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Originally Posted by Pablo Escobar

I think you're doing most a disservice here.

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I do accept that Cork fans' recalling the hassles they had after Arkaga is still raw for them and some do seem least inclined to wish ill will!

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Originally Posted by Pablo Escobar

I think you're doing most a disservice here.

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Is he though? How many on here would be happy for Dundalk to become the next BATE winning the league every season? I know I wouldn't if it was another LOI club

I've no doubt people don't want to see us go to the wall but most would be very happy for these lads to be gone in a few years and Dundalk be a mid table or first division non runner

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

I can't see a reason to be negative about this...dundalk have no assets so peak6 can hardly leave it any worse then it is....
If they walk away with the club in debt then you restart as a new club again ...in a worst case scenario.
So on the positive front possible major investment and a chance to dominate the league....negative....back to square 1.
European football is not the only potential reward either...a team dominating a league with players on long term contracts gets transfer fees for their players and also attract better players.
As a rovers fan I would be worried as to how we compete with their budget going forward.

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This is a ridiculous post. You can't honestly believe its ok to go into a gamble like this knowing that if you lose, you say feck it we'll start again. Clubs who have gone through that only did so because no other option was left. We fought tooth and nail to get ourselves out of debt, and we had to suffer through months (18 months) of disaster. Our players, staff were left unpaid, small local businesses weren't paid. It took us years to get the respect of the city back, and many still do not trust us because of what went on before.

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Originally Posted by El-Pietro

This is a ridiculous post. You can't honestly believe its ok to go into a gamble like this knowing that if you lose, you say feck it we'll start again. Clubs who have gone through that only did so because no other option was left. We fought tooth and nail to get ourselves out of debt, and we had to suffer through months (18 months) of disaster. Our players, staff were left unpaid, small local businesses weren't paid. It took us years to get the respect of the city back, and many still do not trust us because of what went on before.

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Of course I'm not saying that but the point I an trying to make is the downside has limits and t he upside is huge

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Aren't you the same guy who thought there was nothing to worry about with the Bray/Athlone scenarios too....?

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I argued at the time that it was impossible to get away with betting any decent amount on a loi 1st division match without getting rumbled. I was wrong (Not about being rumbled but about being able to get enough on) . Anyone who compares peak6 to the athlone scenerio is daft

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

Of course I'm not saying that but the point I an trying to make is the downside has limits and t he upside is huge

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Death is a pretty big downside, to be fair.

Yes but it is softened by the ability to resurrect in this league!

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

Yes but it is softened by the ability to resurrect in this league!

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Firstly - that's currently. Hopefully we'll get to the stage of a proper pyramid system for Irish football - although we're admittedly far from it at the moment. But that must surely the aspiration. And if it happened before any current LOI clubs go bust, they'd have to start quite far done. Plus - even if there was no pyramid in place, it comes with a ban from Europe (for 3 years ?).

Secondly - going bust is not some magic Etch-a-Sketch, or like those pens in 'Men In Black'. It causes all sorts of problems for a club's credibility and involves a hefty amount of work in getting a team going again. Some here are suggesting it as if it's as easy as changing socks, which is worrying.

I'm not saying it's easy or something you'd want to be doing all I am trying to point out is that in a worst case situation dundalk get to start again .....but under the new setup they have an oppurtunity to go on from here and dominate the league.
Given the limited downside they have reason to be optimistic. Enjoy the ride.
As I said earlier as a rovers supporter my gut instinct is that this is bad news for us and we will find it difficult to compete with dundalk new financial muscle ....

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Firstly - that's currently. Hopefully we'll get to the stage of a proper pyramid system for Irish football - although we're admittedly far from it at the moment.

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I think unfortunately that's about as likely as the FAI suddenly taking an interest in the league because some Yanks put money in.

One thing I don't really understand - and maybe it's explained earlier on - is why have the Dundalk owners chosen to sell up now? In terms of cash, Dundalk can out-do any LoI club, and that'll be the case for the next few years surely. They have to be favourites for the league this season given Cork's post-Maguire slump - they won't be as bad as that this season, but they won't match their first-half form either and will surely drop back 10 points or so. If they were worried they lacked the commercial knowledge to drive things on, they could have hired someone. So why the need to sell now?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I think unfortunately that's about as likely as the FAI suddenly taking an interest in the league because some Yanks put money in.

One thing I don't really understand - and maybe it's explained earlier on - is why have the Dundalk owners chosen to sell up now? In terms of cash, Dundalk can out-do any LoI club, and that'll be the case for the next few years surely. They have to be favourites for the league this season given Cork's post-Maguire slump - they won't be as bad as that this season, but they won't match their first-half form either and will surely drop back 10 points or so. If they were worried they lacked the commercial knowledge to drive things on, they could have hired someone. So why the need to sell now?

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They’ve clearly stated throughout that the pressures of running a day to day business (fastfix) while trying to run a rapidly expanding football club that clearly requires full time staff to operate at the level they want to be at was proving more and more difficult. Perhaps fast fix was starting to suffer and in the long run Dundalk would’ve suffered?

I’m extremely pessimistic about this deal, Dundalk are going to need to play in European group stages every year for this to work and that seems unlikely even with increased spending. Even if they were to match the exploits of 2016, is there enough money there to keep the new guys interested? Redevelopment of oriel won’t come cheap. Hopefully if anything comes out of this deal it’s a revamp oriel but i do feel a Dundalk supporters trust could be more important now than ever, although would they stand any chance of digging the club out of a hole the size these new investors could dig should things go tits up.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

One thing I don't really understand - and maybe it's explained earlier on - is why have the Dundalk owners chosen to sell up now?

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Now is the best time to sell. The Europa League run was noticed by international investors. In 3 or 4 years, it will have been largely forgotten or superseded by another story.

Been trying to stay out of this but for once I'm with the Dundalk fans, I think they're right to be both excited and nervous. Good for them and I hope it works out. Obviously we don't want a BATE/Rosenborg situation but I'm confident that won't happen. It's up to the rest of us to get our sh*t together, simple as that.

Rovers already have put our house in order to a large degree, we're light years ahead facilities and academy-wise and have a benign investor, large fanbase etc but still, just like Dundalk, nothing is guaranteed. I get where the negativity is coming from but the League and individual clubs need investment.

Obviously a Rovers fan is going to be more sanguine about this than a Longford fan for instance but football's not a meritocracy.

I always said even at the start of the reported link to the American investors interest, that a key point of sucess will be if they are interested in revamping oriel park. I think the only way they can make money is from regular appareances in the EL group stages, and of course they could still make that by playing in Dublin grounds.

However they may see a better option to invest in revamping the ground and being able to host these games in Dundalk and to feed into the community spirit they mentioned as one of the attractions that led them to the club. If they did this it would also increase the sale price when they decided to sell and move on, they won’t own the ground but a redeveloped ground would make it more atttactive for a buyer.

Nothing much has changed my overall opinion though to date, I am firmly in the ‘excited but apprehensive’ camp.

Arkaga talked about a new ground for us. 20-30k stadium at the old dump, where there is a park now. Hotel etc. Talk is cheap. If they actually start work on the ground I'll start to believe them, but if its just plans or talk then I will remain unconvinced. Not that my opinion matters of course.

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Originally Posted by oriel

I always said even at the start of the reported link to the American investors interest, that a key point of sucess will be if they are interested in revamping oriel park. I think the only way they can make money is from regular appareances in the EL group stages, and of course they could still make that by playing in Dublin grounds.

However they may see a better option to invest in revamping the ground and being able to host these games in Dundalk and to feed into the community spirit they mentioned as one of the attractions that led them to the club. If they did this it would also increase the sale price when they decided to sell and move on, they won’t own the ground but a redeveloped ground would make it more atttactive for a buyer.

Nothing much has changed my overall opinion though to date, I am firmly in the ‘excited but apprehensive’ camp.

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Q. "What first attracted you to the club that harvested €6.5m in revenues from European competition in a single year, off the back of only a €0.5m team investment ?"

A. "Their community spirit. Definitely their community spirit".

Isn't that just the equivalent of a new signing for a team claiming at their unveiling press conference that they've always had a soft spot for their new club ? #platitudes.

Dundalk united playing out of a redeveloped hunkydorrey park. Not unusual for Americans to relocate the franchise. Nearer to Dublin bigger crowd and pick up the Drogheda support........who is it that owns that stadium........ :) who is that behind the grassy knol

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Originally Posted by oriel

I always said even at the start of the reported link to the American investors interest, that a key point of sucess will be if they are interested in revamping oriel park. I think the only way they can make money is from regular appareances in the EL group stages, and of course they could still make that by playing in Dublin grounds.

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What does "a key point of success' mean?

It is difficult to imagine how an investment group can get ROI from spending millions on upgrading Oriel Park (even with Capital Sports Grants). Can you?

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Originally Posted by Ezeikial

What does "a key point of success' mean?

It is difficult to imagine how an investment group can get ROI from spending millions on upgrading Oriel Park (even with Capital Sports Grants). Can you?

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There are realistically only 3 avenues that offer Peak6 any decent chance of getting their investment back, let alone seeing a yield on it :

1) Europe
2) Europe
3) Europe

Money spent on a stadium means less money available to spend on a team to deliver results in Europe.

Plus - any stadium redevelopment almost certainly wouldn't work for the level of European competition that they will need to be aiming at to recoup their investment. So unless they can somehow convert it into a huge property play, why would they bother anything beyond tinkering with bits of the stadium ?

Another revenue could be transfer fees. How much would towell Horgan and Boyle have gone for if they were on two or 3 year contracts...a team winning it's home league regularly and playing in Europe even semi regularly can attract decent transfer fees

Its great that this discussion is happening and that there are many points of view and angles to consider. Yes it is about return on investment. It was said earlier by a poster that real indication on what plans are will be if anything at all happens at Oriel Park in due course. But if nothing at all were to happen with Oriel Park itself, the basic addition of full time admin staff will improve things in the short term.
The YDC on its own could have a manager to maximise its potential.
Sponsorship has been decent in recent years but that can improve especially in the medium term if there was better corporate facilities, YDC could figure in this too. It is a massive structure with a lot of empty space and an additional interior floor/balcony type structure with opening the side overlooking the pitch then sponsors/corporate stuff could be accomodated and it wouldnt cost millions to do such a revision to one side elevation of that structure.
Someone dedicated to develpoing the youth structures or an acadamy project is very likely planned. Initially, again short term, this is initially appointing a full time employee.
The quality of merchandising is superb from CX+, Dundalk gear may have limited appeal outside of Dundalk but with additional staff there is room for improving sales both online and with the example of the success of the store that was opened in the Marshes Shopping Centre.
General admin on processing season tickets, matchday tickets, advertising games, marketing the club etc should improve.
There are very basic (as we all know too well) improvements that can be made to Oriel Park that lack of addressing really bugs supporters eg the infamous 'puddle' entering the shed. Improved organisation on match nights should happen and dare I say a professional security company being used could happen. The last couple of things wont have any major impact on revenue but short term would improve general goodwill (unless you are the fans stopped with flares or half dozen Dutch Gold).
Bars, of which there are currently 2 operating with another easily enough refitted YDC side. These have been important income streams and can be improved possibly under a general manager type or whomever would be managing the YDC.
The programme and website, media side of things are excellent as we know and essential for any club. An addition of a fully organised and stocked online shop is the only real improvement here that I can think of but with so much heavy reliance on volunteers well there was only so much could be done and now the possibility of some additional organisation and staff and this type of service could be provided.

None of this will make much if any return on investment but it could push the club along nicely toward being self sufficient in terms of staffing and the general day to day running of a club with aspirations to be fully professional type outfit.

After this we get to the likes of capital investment on facilities, Oriel Park, training acilities and youth academy. How invested the new owners are in this project of theirs, and not just financial investment will have significant bearing on what is done medium/long term. Lets hope that they have complete pride in what they do and want everything right including Oriel Park, not just inviting their pals over for games when it is in Europe and the game is in Tallaght or the Aviva and letting on that this is real face of the club rather than just borrowed a few times a year.

European progression and the money that goes with and transfers are the obvious ways to make their money, nobody is foolish enough to think much else. If (a big if for the worriers) things do work out in general like the stuff above it will be progress. Get the most out of what we have starting off simply. Then if we can average x amount from Europe over time then we may see much more in terms of working to host european games in Dundalk. Or they could just build an 8000 cat 4 stadium from the off....

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

Another revenue could be transfer fees. How much would towell Horgan and Boyle have gone for if they were on two or 3 year contracts...a team winning it's home league regularly and playing in Europe even semi regularly can attract decent transfer fees

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Even on 3 year contracts id be surprised if all 3 combined would transfer for much more than say 600k and probably not that even, so about winning 1 CL tie (old format) and EL play-off income with a decent draw. Until there is a sustained climbing of the rankings by the LoI and its clubs initial fees will still be relatively low regardless of length of contracts. Imo add-on clauses would generate more than an initial fee, if the player succeeds, but at least with longer contracts those add-ons can be included in the overall transfer.

Exactly look at Celtics model. They made 7million on van dyks transfer from Southampton to Liverpool.

Whatever the investors decide to do is outside of the control or influence of fans and officials in the club who miraculously converted a dying club to one of the highest performing teams and clubs in the history of the league.
The investors will be remote and disconnected and faceless compared to your local businessmen who have sold the club.
Do Peakys even have an office to put up a Christmas tree?

A lot of people are going to be bitterly disappointed if this works out well for Dundalk.

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Originally Posted by Dalymountrower

Do Peakys even have an office to put up a Christmas tree?

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Artists impression of the new away supporters entrance to Oriel Park
https://foot.ie/attachment.php?attachmentid=2645&stc=1

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

Exactly look at Celtics model. They made 7million on van dyks transfer from Southampton to Liverpool.

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Have they had this happen every year though ?

Transfer fees are erratic and significantly even more of a gamble than European progression. They would be nothing more than an added bonus, rather than a core part of any sensible plan. You can't budget for transfer fees, but you can for making Europe most seasons.

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Originally Posted by Ezeikial

Artists impression of the new away supporters entrance to Oriel Park
https://foot.ie/attachment.php?attachmentid=2645&stc=1

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Is it in the Away end to keep Maxi and his petrol can from it ?

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Is it in the Away end to keep Maxi and his petrol can from it ?

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Maxi is reformed. He may well be appointed Chief Fire Warden

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Have they had this happen every year though ?

Transfer fees are erratic and significantly even more of a gamble than European progression. They would be nothing more than an added bonus, rather than a core part of any sensible plan. You can't budget for transfer fees, but you can for making Europe most seasons.

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Van Dyk was 11.5 million and they got 7.5 on top
Victor Wanyama 12.5
Fraser forrester 10

That's 40m in the last few years that comes off the top of the head plus who knows what sell ons or other benefits.
I'm not saying Dundalk will get that kind of money but if you have the cash to hire decent players on contracts there is potential to become a "selling and development club"

Combination of a bit of success in Europe and you really have a double whamy.....like I said earlier as a Rovers fan I'd be worried

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Have they had this happen every year though ?

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Bah SPL is knock off micky mouse quality!! Sure if it wasnt for contract issues Dundalk have lost a top player or 2 to transfer in each season from 2013. We could even have had a sell-on clause in with Seanie's switch to Cork. So Hoban, Towell, Boyle, Horgan, Maguire, Mc Eleney, McMillan, O'Connor, nearly Gannon - puts Celtic in the ha'penny place like......

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

I'm not saying Dundalk will get that kind of money

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Well that's a relief. Thought you'd gone start raving bonkers for a while.

You may take off a couple of zeroes at least from those figures I think.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Well that's a relief. Thought you'd gone start raving bonkers for a while.

You may take off a couple of zeroes at least from those figures I think.

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Still grounded on planet earth :)
The net point I was making was that even a few hundred grand a year on net transfer income go's along way towards sustainability and with a successful team its not unrealistic. Celtic are in a different league (in every respect)

I'm in the excited but worried camp. About 80% worried. Looking at it as an investor it seems insane to put any significant money into Oriel. While all Dundalk fans would love to see Oriel transformed into a UEFA Cat4 stadium, or at least not a ****hole, surely an outside investor would be happy enough to play 3 or 4 big games a season in Dublin and spend the minimum on Oriel. And I don't see it as a great investment. You need a significant number of top notch results at a European level which has never happened (consistently anyway) in Ireland. My concern is that in 2-3 years when we haven’t quite made the group phases after hard luck stories against Malmo, Dinamo Zagreb and Celtic they’ll get bored, get out and leave us with an equally rubbish Oriel and a load of contracts we can no longer pay.
The only way to make profit at Dundalk is on the pitch. Presumably the plan at a bare minimum is to qualify for Europe each year (which is realistic in the short-medium term) and more aggressively to qualify for the Euro groups. Getting to the groups is a major challenge though. Two exceptional League of Ireland clubs have managed it in 25 years. Even assuming money is no object and imagining Dundalk’s playing budget is suddenly, say, doubled, it takes time to bed new players and to move to the next level. Investment in the squad has its challenges- bedding in new players, convincing good players to stay in the league or come to the league, then if all goes according to plan, keeping players motivated when we’re dominating the league at a BATE/Rosenborg level, which is a necessity if we are to compete at a level that means making EL groups every other year and maybe sneaking into the CL groups at some stage in the next 5-10 seasons. To make the EL groups this year we’ll need to be beat two non-seeds then two very serious clubs with large to massive budgets. In our entire European history we’ve beaten one half-decent side over two legs (BATE). To make the CL we’d need to beat one small country champions and then three big clubs. After winning the league of course!

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Originally Posted by seand

I'm in the excited but worried camp. About 80% worried. Looking at it as an investor it seems insane to put any significant money into Oriel. While all Dundalk fans would love to see Oriel transformed into a UEFA Cat4 stadium, or at least not a ****hole, surely an outside investor would be happy enough to play 3 or 4 big games a season in Dublin and spend the minimum on Oriel. And I don't see it as a great investment. You need a significant number of top notch results at a European level which has never happened (consistently anyway) in Ireland. My concern is that in 2-3 years when we haven’t quite made the group phases after hard luck stories against Malmo, Dinamo Zagreb and Celtic they’ll get bored, get out and leave us with an equally rubbish Oriel and a load of contracts we can no longer pay.
The only way to make profit at Dundalk is on the pitch. Presumably the plan at a bare minimum is to qualify for Europe each year (which is realistic in the short-medium term) and more aggressively to qualify for the Euro groups. Getting to the groups is a major challenge though. Two exceptional League of Ireland clubs have managed it in 25 years. Even assuming money is no object and imagining Dundalk’s playing budget is suddenly, say, doubled, it takes time to bed new players and to move to the next level. Investment in the squad has its challenges- bedding in new players, convincing good players to stay in the league or come to the league, then if all goes according to plan, keeping players motivated when we’re dominating the league at a BATE/Rosenborg level, which is a necessity if we are to compete at a level that means making EL groups every other year and maybe sneaking into the CL groups at some stage in the next 5-10 seasons. To make the EL groups this year we’ll need to be beat two non-seeds then two very serious clubs with large to massive budgets. In our entire European history we’ve beaten one half-decent side over two legs (BATE). To make the CL we’d need to beat one small country champions and then three big clubs. After winning the league of course!

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Great post seand, covers mine and most supporters concerns and outstanding questions. My only hope in what you are saying is that the new owners are aware of this, they would have to be wouldn't they? Day one when they sat down with Paul and Andy and said we want to be in European group stages every season I presume the answer was "Great, but....." Paul and Andy know the score and wouldn't lead them down the garden path as they know it would only hurt the club in the long term

Does the new type of ownership change the relationship between the club volunteers and Dundalk the club/business? My own view is that it probably will but gradually.