Good post. This game was all about Plan A's and B's. We set out to stifle them for 90 minutes and it almost worked. And then when we had to chase the game with 15 minutes left, we did and it worked out luckily for us. Dunphy, Giles and Brady in the studio seemed to miss this realism. However I do agree with their assessment that we can actually start out trying to play constructive football. It is imperative if we are ever to progress at international level.
I agree. Was very surprised to see Jeff Hendrick come on and again surprised (or maybe just unaccustomed) when Gibson came on just a minute later. Those, and Hoolahan, were quite decisive, dynamic decisions. Not like under Trap, when most of the subs appeared to be pre-planned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingdom
He was better in the second half but in the first half in particular I think his touch was very heavy and he gave the ball away a few times when he should have been able to control the ball easily or play a short pass. He did improve though, to be fair. I think he is an intelligent player and the more responsibility and encouragement he's given under O'Neill, the more his technical ability will show.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
Cummiskey and Kerr were both reporting from the stadium, I assume, and didn't have the aid of a replay. On TV, I don't think it looked like a foul, but possibly from the gantry and in the stands it did. I will give Kerr the benefit of the doubt for now and assume he wasn't looking for things to complain about.Quote:
I noticed both Gavin Cummiskey and Brian Kerr in the IT said it was a cast iron peno (Cummiskey wrote that Meyler had tripped him). Didn't see that at all, even from a few replays. Looked like they both came together, Podolski was falling and then decided to throw himself.
Those few sloppy errors, they are now consistant errors, and it's constantly coming from two players - Marc Wilson, and Stephen Ward.Quote:
Originally Posted by tricky_colour
I'm tired of Wilson. He's just bloody lazy. I've no personal issues with the guy, but it's the small, really small things, and I'd love for some of you to watch out for it. When he gets the ball, he always insists on taking an extra touch. His basic passing, for a guy considered to be a ball-playing centrehalf, is off. Watch how many times when he is making a pass, the receiving player has to check back in/out because the pass is either behind or aschew. It's probably pettiness on my part, but as far as I'm concerned these little things are what add up to big mistakes.
Ward, I'm loathe to criticise, because he defended very well last night, but again, if he just tightened up some of the sloppiness he'd improve to a huge degree. He's a full-back - our only full-back - therefore he knows he is going to be taking throw-ins. It is astounding how many times he takes a bad throw, and how many times the ball is just not good enough to the player receiving the ball. It was the cause of one great German raid in the second half - the ball was thrown to Quinn at throat level, the ball was lost and Germany broke. Such a small and easy thing to eradicate.
Even though the consequence was worse, I can almost be lenient on criticising the backing off for the goal, because it's more of a result of tiredness than it is of laziness. Remember you've a guy in Stephen Quinn (who was visibly puffing in the first half at a German free-kick) who is not playing week-in week-out for Hull Tigers, against Toni Kroos, leader of the new free galacticos over in Madrid. Fatigue is what happened there, and with the greatest of respect to our lads, it's bloody understandable.
We were stuck inside the two most defensive thirds of our half for approximately 50 mins until Germany scored. It was inevitable that a side with so much possession was going to seize on a moment of weakness. HoweverQuote:
we were not camped in front of our own goal all the time.
you're correct there (apart from a spell where the pod of JOSH/Meyler/Walters were genuinely perplexed at who should be running/static/tracking. It took the tackle/foul by McClean on the bench side of the pitch to give the opportunity to sort it out properly. They were fine after that.Quote:
The whole side seemed a lot more confident, almost as if they knew what they were doing!
We didn't seem to be chasing shadows all the time as we were again Spain, we were able to win the ball back and keep the
German contained much of the time.
and given the tactics he'd obviously decided on, it was the right decision to put Walters on the right. Whether the tactic was right is a different question :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I was underwhelmed by Gibson last night until I saw the match on telly just now, and in the last 20 minutes in particular he was very good, using the ball well and protecting it well. I still feel O'Neill needs to trust his better players more, although Germany are a harder team to play against than most others we'll face.
There are few pundits I really pay attention to anymore. I tend to turn off the punditry when it comes on. I don't care too much for Hamman, but I don't agree with his assertion, but the facts show that yes they are in a dogfight with us - for now. That situation probably will have changed by round 7, given they now face Gibraltar, Georgia and Poland. The problem Stuttgart is that no different to Germany, Poland Ireland and Scotland are all also one bad result away from a disaster. And the odds will be on that one of us will make the mistake, and not the Fatherland.Quote:
Kingdom, Didi Hamman thinks Germany are in a dogfight along with the rest of us! They're only one bad result away from him being right. Let's hope it's in Dublin!
I would say if we win in Glasgow, Scotland are f*cked, because they'll have to throw caution to the wind, and they'll be even more susceptable to counter's in Dublin and then against the Poles. A win in Glasgow for us messes with the Poles too, and then the point from Gelsenkirchen becomes huge.Quote:
I'd love to hear thoughts on Whelan. I have never really rated his performances apart from maybe half a dozen games. He seemed to do eff all with the ball last night, never seemed to have any time or never seemed to have the vision to pick any kind of forward pass. Hendrick showed how it should / could be done better. But I still wonder if Whelan's best attribute is simply clogging up that space in front of our penalty box, the same space that Kroos had all to himself for about 10 seconds in the build up to his goal. Clogging up that space is quite important!
Anyway, 3 games down and no feeling that anything has been left out there. That's as good as we can ask for. But Scotland have a point in Poland which is nothing we can be sure of, to say the least,so despite their defeat in Dortmund we're still neck and neck in the "as it lies" stakes.
If we can win in Glasgow then it's massively game on. We need points in the bag now to cushion against any mishaps later. We never seem to do well trying to catch up from opportunities lost.
I've seen elsewhere people say momentum turned to us when Whelan went off, I didn't feel a sea-change until they scored!Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia
I think it is only fair to say, that that is not how Poland won the game. Poland took one chance due to Neuer ego/stupidity/poor judgement(delete as appropriate) and downright bad luck and Sczeczny having an epic game. Aside from that they played exactly as we did - soaked up pressure and then hit on the counter, exactly like Slovakia beating Spain.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
I think the difference in the mindset's of the players who could have played in the middle of the park is what dictates the possibilites in the two different approaches.Quote:
It's hard to say really. I mean, they'd have had more space to play closer to our goal, so maybe we'd have been simply leaving ourselves open and vulnerable to more incisive penetration. Kroos and Durm showed what they could do when given the slightest bit of space around the edge of our box.
Glenn Whelan is by definition a sitter, and a stopper. A destructor if you will. His goal is simple. Block space, force attackers into channels, dead-ends where they get stifled, try to intercept, tackle as required and play a simple sideways ball to safety or to a more appropriate teammate.
Darron Gibson is not a sitter, nor a destructor. He's an architect. He's constantly wanting the ball and constantly looking for go-forward ball and for positive momentum. Chasing shadows and not having the ball is not his game. James McCarthy is a hybrid of two, and one hopes he starts to show it consistently, because if he can, then it allows for someone more positive such as Gibson, or Hendrick to be selected.
For us to have played positively, it would have meant Wes in for Walters, with McGeady out wide right, and probably Gibson in for Quinn. People forget that Walters is a huge unit for set-pieces, and given we rely hugely on McCLean alongside the two centre-halves, Walters is essential in those situations too. I was surprised Germany didn't try to exploit their height advantage more, as they had the edge on us in the air.
Germany are not a team in crisis. They're a team that has played a huge amount of games this year, and have lost some of their best players, and have a huge injury list. They'll be in much more determined humour come this time next year, believe me. They do have a huge issue up front- but I think that will be resolved onceQuote:
Their media thinks they're a team in crisis.
I'd like to think not. I'd rather think it was a brave performance and point won, rather than a cowardly two dropped, against a team who had a few injuries, of which we took advantage, but who will return to their best by going on to crush our main competition (Scotland and Poland) in the remaining games. Before bottling it again against us in Dublin, of course! :cool:
Unfortunately I agree with you. The end justifies the means, and herein lies the fickleness of the fan. Had that goal not gone in at the end, I'd be fuming.Quote:
Having trumped Scotland's result in Germany by a point, the Scots are already playing catch-up in the group. And they still have to go to Georgia too. That one has "banana-skin" written all over it. Let's hope such pressure shows in Celtic Park. I'd been saying before the game that I was hoping we'd give it a proper go like Scotland did. We didn't, but I'm ecstatic. I'd rather come home with a last-gasp point having played anti-football for 75 minutes than have played plucky and direct counter-attacking football and ended up losing 2-1. The result certainly justified the means.
That chance is the essence of why you just can't beat live football in the upper tier of a stadium. Germany worked for about ten mins for that chance. It was a thing of beauty to watch them tease out the Irish defence. Goetze was doing a kind of loop running from Wilson, behind O'Shea past Meyler and then inverting it. It always coincided with Draxler collecting the ball, Duerm doing a dummy or wall pass with Draxler and then the ball finding it's way back to Kroos. Twice before he tried to slide Bellarabi in, but he was tracked by Wilson, buy Goetze moved once wasn't followed and then the second time he got the chance. It really was a piece of art.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
I'm tired of Wilson. He's just bloody lazy. I've no personal issues with the guy, but it's the small, really small things, and I'd love for some of you to watch out for it. When he gets the ball, he always insists on taking an extra touch. His basic passing, for a guy considered to be a ball-playing centrehalf, is off. Watch how many times when he is making a pass, the receiving player has to check back in/out because the pass is either behind or aschew. It's probably pettiness on my part, but as far as I'm concerned these little things are what add up to big mistakes.
Totally agree with this, Wilson will cost us important points in this campaign, it could cost us qualification.
We got lucky against the Germans, and one who thinks differently is misguided.
I think Germany will still win the group with Poland 2nd and Ireland and Scotland fighting it out for 3rd.
ONeill was 1 min away from getting slaughterd in the media, but a lucky goal and he's the new messiah.
Eh, he got slaughtered in the media anyway. Nobody said he was the new messiah. Some have already reverted to the default anti-Ireland manager position they did with your messiah.Quote:
Originally Posted by the doc
agree. Just because the ground is Celtic's doesn't mean the supporters will be.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
To respond to Kingdom's (?) point above, I think Scotland only have one gear - attack.
Fwiw, the Podolski penalty didn't look a penalty to me in real time though obviously I've seen them given. There was another where O'Shea clumsily had his arms around an opponent's shoulders and they fell to ground - that was more heart-in-mouth time for me.
King took a more positive attitude than O'Neill and was quite pleased to lose only 3-0, thinking the late Ozil goal was almost irrelevant and that morally it was only two nil. And morally one was a deflection, so it was really only 1 nil. And we hit the bar so morally it was kind of 1-1.
But that's the way football works. Had the early volley gone in we might have lost 3-0 or we might have perked up and finished 2-2 in a thriller. The fact is we drew 1-1. The end justifies the means. When Stoke beat Man City at the Etihad the scoreboard didn't show missed chances, penalty appeals, or woodwork hits. The league table never shows those things either.
How close were Germany to conceding a late equaliser to Algeria, only seconds after Algeria scored late to narrow the lead to 2-1? They go in and it's a German calamity, they don't and Germany are deserved winners against plucky underdogs.
And thank God there was no such thing as social media when we snatched a last gasp 2-2 draw in Belgium when Pfaff had a brain fart and tripped Stapleton (followed by one of the most nerveless penalties ever by Brady btw!). Charlton would be branded a fluke and we'd have fired him before we played Bulgaria. We're pretty much at the same stage of our MON journey now as we were with Jack back then, hopefully with a similar outcome.
This all feels eerily similar to me. Glasgow on a bitterly cold November night. Where's The Doc? For superstitition's sake we need an ex-Preston centre back with an English accent.
what exactly was lucky about a quick throw-in followed by some decent wing play, a deep cross brilliantly turned back across the goal and our centre half (yes, miles from his own area) getting across a world class centre half to turn the ball brilliantly into the corner on the net?Quote:
Originally Posted by the doc
please advise.
lots of scotish based celtic fans in the Irish section in feb 2003 friendly. the hoops bar had signs up advertising buses to "our" friendly with Scotland! id say our numbers will be swelled by a few thousand scot celtic fansQuote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
After Hendrick replacing Whelan, he immediately went on a couple of kamikaze runs into German territory before eventually losing possession. I think it might have been then that MON decided he better bring on Gibson for a bit of extra protection, as it was clear that Hendrick was unlikely to be as disciplined defensively as Whelan.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
Maybe they sell their tickets differently and Celtic fans, like the YBIGers, will coordinate their purchases. Still, they'd probably do that even if not at CP.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
Speaking of YBIG, a bloke talking on the tram back into town reminded me of a POS comment, you know, where he says the fans that go to the away matches are better informed etc. Anyway, one bloke on the team said wtf did O'Neill bring on that donkey Samnon. He thought the shaven headed Gibson was Sammon. Must have been the similarity in position and playing style that added to the confusion :)
Well as you know, POSH is always right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I should think that the Ole Ole brigade will be swelled for a game in Glasgow, especially one at the home of Irish football.
At this remove I'm calling a 3-1 win to us.
ah yes, the good aul YBig super fanQuote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Tbf, at least some of them make an effort to go to games...
I was heavily involved with Irish Pitch and Putt. There's a put-down brandished by the older crew to the younger upstarts that transcends sports.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
The fella who is credited with saying it in our game won his first Irish championship many years ago by 1 shot; the fellow who was leading pitched directly into the cup from the teebox, the ball crashed out of the hole and went out of bounds. The chap shot bogey and missed out on the championship by 1 shot. The fella who beat pitched big on the final hole, went out of bounds but the ball struck concrete, came back onto the course, and the chap hit par to win by 1 shot. Approached by the defeated rival at the end, to be told how lucky he was, he responded with: "There's no room for that story on your scorecard, and there's no room for that story when I'm engraving the cup."
I actually hate this kind of talk. People do what they want to do. It's not like going to different countries watching football and drinking beer is some kind of selfless deed or major sacrifice. There are people that go to games that know f* all and there are people that watch it at home that know loads, and of course vice versa. Everybody's situation is different, there are probably some guys that save half the year to get one trip in and some that can click their fingers and have their private jet pick them up, like POS. And, of course, there are some that haven't a chance of making those kind of trips, be it because of finances, work commitments, the wife, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Not to mention finances, college, jobs, kids, illness etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Cannot understand why the so called superfans even give a crap about it to be honest. How does it affect them?
At the end of the day there's always Davy Keogh who will be better than all of them...
I had just added to my rant :)
Well... you didn't mention Davy...Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Davy reminds me of this guy
http://www.irishexaminer.com/media/i...ghEXAMONLY.jpg
Well yeah, but didn't mean every game or the other end of Asia, even the odd friendly once every 5-10 years, if necessary. And tbf to PO'S he has no private jet. Sure he's just a Rossie after all...Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
what I really like about the self anointed super fan is the way they keep that to themselves and don't think it practically entitles them to a seat on the team busQuote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Tbf, lots of fans just comment on social media rather than MB's, which is probably a lot more tedious as you get loads of people saying they're doing the same thing. I only commented myself because I know lots of Germans...
Plus lots would admit they know 'feck all' about tactics and the like.
:wink:
I've only seen the game once, so I'll take your word but I'd say just as many times he beat a man and played a good pass. His composure was striking, particularly in the first half when other players seemed happy just to get rid and since he often received the ball in our half, wide on the left, under pressure from German players and with little on. Usually he used the in a noticeably calm fashion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
You might be right, but found it strange they were so certain. Usually the journos are all talking to each other and at least some have seen replays.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Kerr's column was actually really good and worth a read, not the usual bitter missive.
Either way, dynamic substitutions are not something Irish fans are used to!Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Not to contradict you because you're right, but Hummels is not and never will be a world class centre half. He's just a good one.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
I'd like to see the list of world class centre halves if Hummels isn't one. He's only 25 also so his best years are probably ahead of him.
O'Shea said O'Neill told him to go forward for the last ten, so another notch of kudos to the gaffer. The finish was excellent.
Hmmn......... I don't know if I would get into a dispute with Darwin about his proclamations based on his evolutionary, detection/predictive prowess.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Terry, Varane, Kompany, Ramos Pique, Chiellini, Garay, etc. In recent years, Ferdinand, Vidic, Puyol, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Don't get me wrong, he's a very good footballer but he's a useless defender, which is a luxury a team like Germany can afford but most teams couldn't.
That wasnt quite it, his arm was interlocked like ye see a lot of gaelic footballers do, so it fools the ref into thinking he has grabbed and is holding his arm, when in fact the striker has cutely placed and locked in his arm. Never a penalty but at the same time O'Shea was a bit dopey letting him pull him down with him which makes it look a bit more like he dragged him down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Hey everyone, Paul is back!
I agree with you CD. I'd only seen snippets of him before this group, and took the opinion from others that he was top 5 material. But I've seen a bit of him now the past 3 months, and to me he is exactly as you say, a good footballer, but not great at the job he;s paid to do - defend! He's as slow as a funeral. Ramos is the only one from your list that I'd have question marks over but the others yeah, all look better to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
I haven't seen an awful lot of Hummels to be honest but I thought he looked very solid at the WC and the few games I've seen him play for Dortmund. Varane has massive potential but is just a kid really, he's obviously not quite there yet to say that train wreck Pepe is usually preferred. I remember he was badly beaten (by Hummels as it happens) for the decisive goal in the WC quarter final. Terry can't be far off the 'recent years' list although he's still a super defender to be fair. Kompany is the man that can do no wrong no matter how much wrong he does and Pique hasn't had the best few months, by all accounts. I'm a huge Ramos fan, loose cannon but a big game player and inspirational figure. Can't say I've seen much of Garay and Chiellini is pure class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Just don't ask him about 80s power metal. (In joke)Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
There's probably a shortage of truly world class defenders around but those players are all a lot better than Hummels, in my opinion. He plays for a Dortmund side who concede a lot of goals, he's slow, turns slowly and isn't particularly great at winning the ball and making interceptions. What he is very good at, though, is passing and moving his team up the pitch, which are great skills to have but they're not a complete skillset. And if we're going to use being badly beaten for a goal against a player, I can think of one recent example where Hummels was badly exposed.
Credit to O'Shea though. He showed a great instinct to get ahead of Hummels like he did. Reactions are slower at that time of a game too. Hummels can be criticised but I think more credit is due to JOSH.
Hummels is a winner and a strong character, big attributes that are missing in other prominent CBs.