Anyone know if the Georgian FA will be fined for fans displaying multiple Ukrainian flags in the stadium on Sunday?
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Anyone know if the Georgian FA will be fined for fans displaying multiple Ukrainian flags in the stadium on Sunday?
There was a very prominent one directly above the half-way line. Hard to see how UEFA would have missed it, but whether they fined the Georgian football association is another matter.
They may well, but unless you're following Georgian news sites, you're unlikely to hear about it.
This "what about other teams" BS has to stop lads
Why? What is the problem outlining inconsistancies in UEFA rulings? If it bothers you jog on - nobody is making you read the thread!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
If people can point out any inconsistencies, then go ahead. As has been said before, UEFA don't publish all fines so it's just a guessing game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
A guessing game that is pointless as it doesn't effect Dundalk's case at all
Which just illustrates how flawed UEFA have become. Maybe Dundalk et al should take their case to the ECHR given people are no longer allowed to even express an opinion.
And credit to the Georgians too, in support of Ukraine. Lovely people in the main, no surprise there.
Dundalk to the ECHR?? You can jog on too!
The right to express an opinion is not an absolute one. This is especially the case on private property or when a voluntary agreement between the two parties concerned allows for the limitation of "offending" expressions. By entering onto the property of the club, those supporters waived any right they might have had to behave how they liked (not that there is such a right even in public, but you know what I mean) and, at the very least, implicitly agreed to conform to the over-riding stadium regulations. Actually, I'd be surprised if those terms weren't explicitly mentioned on their match tickets. Likewise, by Dundalk's participation in UEFA's competition, the club agreed to adhere to UEFA's governing regulations. Such agreement was a condition of participation. Nobody's right to free speech has been involuntarily stifled or trampled upon. People can't just do what they like on private property nor can clubs breach competition rules to which they've agreed to adhere without consequence.
Edit: I should make clear that I'm not lumping the club and those individuals involved into the same boat. The club have denounced their actions. Even if the supporters had a case, I doubt Dundalk would take it to the ECtHR on their behalf. If those involved think they have a case, they can fire away, but they won't get very far.
Brave talk for a man that won't even go to watch his local LOI side play. It's not you that has to put up with the consequencesQuote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Except they're not and never have been my 'local LOI' side...my own team are no longer even in the LOI, since you didn't ask.
But don't let checking the facts get in the way of daft assertions.
Well, if you don't fight things then people will continue to sh*t on you...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
;)
The point remains that you have nothing to lose with your "daft assertions" while they very much doQuote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
I never said Dundalk were your local side either. You've been fairly adamant about who you do/don't support on these forums
What case do the individuals involved or the club have that would justify appealing to the ECtHR though? What is there to fight? Both respective parties, the individuals involved and the club, voluntarily waived certain rights they might have otherwise had by either: attending the game in Oriel Park, private property of the Casey family, and agreeing to adhere to the terms of entry, as in the case of the fans; or, by participating in the Europa League and agreeing to conform to the governing regulations as laid down by UEFA, as in the case of the club. The individuals involved were the ones sh*tting on their club and I understand the club have moved to ban them from Oriel Park, as is the club's right. What else can Dundalk do realistically?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Dodge,
If you say so...gurning about modern football and how the LOI receives a raw deal. Fair enough.
Clearly, you don't realise insipid morons like UEFA are part of the problem...never mind anyone else's 'assertions' !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
Tsk:rolleyes: Eh, I do know that! But Supporters dont read a list of UEFA directives before they head to the game. Plenty of petty rules do be broken all around the place. Difference between the football competition and the silly bureaucracy (a nice little earner for UEFA).
I know, but more fool them. Accepting undemocratic organisations interference. As is the case with most other clubs.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
UEFA are a sanitised shower who exist in their own corporate bubble and deserve to be challenged whenever possible...there's a point of principle and feck the consequences.
Whether they read them or not, the supporters agreed to adhere to Dundalk's ground regulations simply by their entry into the stadium. The regulations state the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
It's not a petty matter though; this has needlessly cost Dundalk €18,000. Participation in the competition cannot be distinguished from the governing regulations either. Acceptance of the rules is a condition of participation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dundalk FC
What's the alternative? Opting out of UEFA competition? Why would or should Dundalk do that? Is there another democratic body that organises football in Europe to whom Dundalk can instead align themselves? The club are happy to adhere to UEFA's regulations, like all other clubs participating in UEFA competition around Europe. Are there clubs around Europe that shun UEFA's authority? Is there some way how Dundalk might have participated in UEFA's competition without having to conform to the competition rules?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
What is the principle though? I don't disagree with your opinion of UEFA, but how should Dundalk just ignore the consequences? How should they challenge UEFA? It's easy to say that, but how would Dundalk go about putting this into action? What would it involve? If Dundalk decided to just dismiss the consequences, they'd be banned from Europe and the FAI would probably suffer some form of penalty too. It's simply not realistic to tell Dundalk, "F*ck the consequences!"Quote:
UEFA are a sanitised shower who exist in their own corporate bubble and deserve to be challenged whenever possible...there's a point of principle and feck the consequences.
Hmm, you're way too rational Danny!
Remember plenty of protests at both home and elsewhere, which make a few flags look very tame.
It's not just down to Dundalk/LOI/Ireland, but up to as many people as possible to challenge UEFA's interfering and hypocrisy.
Though these days we're probably waiting for some nerd to start a petition or Facebook page...
FFS.
That's all well and good, but what use is it to Dundalk in the here and now? What can Dundalk do to challenge UEFA, even if they wanted to?
Not the least of which are grammar, it seems.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
In fairness, Benno, that little transgression is Shakesperian compare to the toe-curling tripe the banned banner band have produced!
Rumours doing the rounds earlier on social media of a Pats fan getting arrested earlier, in a OTT manner, for wanting to bring a Palestinian flag into Richmond, don't know if true?
Kick up the biggest possible stink about it possible. Fans should write at the very least to their MEP's to highlight the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
It was a Bohs fan according to twitter. Maybe the Pats owner has a policy of not allowing Palestine flags into his ground. Still I am very surprised if someone could be arrested for having a flag. Time to get R Sadlier's view I think.
My mate saw the guy getting arrested was just over by the chipper van, a lot of gardai involved and very aggressive according to him.
EDIT: just seen the video online looks very very OTT
Seemingly, the Israelis have threatened to occupy any LOI ground displaying Palestinian flags. I wouldn't be too harsh on our own authorities for trying to avoid this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Donie Forde
Well, if it puts extra bums on seats it might be worth a go..
He was arrested because he refused to allow Gardai search his bag, and then pushed a GuardQuote:
Originally Posted by wonder88
It was nothing to do with a flag. Nor can Pats owner ask for someone to be arrested, but then you know that
Is this the video?
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=717131195002341
What might kicking up a stink achieve though? Even if local MEPs did care about the matter - a minority of supporters wronging their club without any consideration for the consequences - MEPs don't have the authority to make UEFA's punishment disappear. The fact remains that Dundalk were in breach of agreed competition regulations as a result of the conduct of some of their supporters who were themselves in breach of ground regulations to which they'd agreed to adhere by virtue of their presence in Oriel Park. The legality of the punishment is not in question and there is no issue insofar as nobody has been mistreated. The decent thing would be for the supporters to accept responsibility and somehow cover the fine they cost their club.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
I should point out Bohs fans think this is (very) wrong. I wasn't there and the earlier post was based on what others told meQuote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Hear what you say DI, but vehemently disagree. Have UEFA ever even been challenged by MEP's?
Change only comes from challenging the established order. Including the clowns in UEFA.
UEFA are no saints, but in this instance, and as unfortunate a situation as it is for Dundalk, they've not actually wronged anyone. What would an MEP challenge them on? How would they go about forcing change? UEFA are a private organisation, membership of which is voluntary and conditional upon acceptance of the organisation's regulations. Nobody is compelled to join. As a member association, however, the FAI voluntarily adhere to these regulations, as do Dundalk, in turn, as they're aligned with the FAI as members of the LOI. You either conform to the rules - some of which may indeed be pretty stupid - or you don't take part in the party. You either accept all or nothing. There's no middle ground or picking and choosing which rules you would like to apply to you. UEFA aren't a public body over which MEPs can wield political influence. Regardless, all this talk of getting local MEPs involved still ignoring the immediate fact that Dundalk have still had €18,000 deducted from their competition bonus because of the conduct of a minority of irresponsible supporters. Why shouldn't these supporters be held responsible for their actions? By their entry into the stadium, they agreed without qualification to adhere to the ground regulations in effect. One of those regulations demands that persons in attendance comply with the instructions of the stewards. By breaching those regulations, they broke what you could call a legal promise to their club.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
It is very unhelpful to post hearsay as fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Aye, probably, even more reason for them to be challenged then!Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
But challenged how? Via what process?
correct! as Outspoken said I was at the pats game and happened to just walk away from that chipper after ordering my food! as I was walking by all hell broke out loose and I turned around and seen a fan lying on the ground in handcuffs and three cops around him! his mates goin hell for leather why he was arrested! I had no idea who it was-whether it was Bohs or Shels as he had no jersey or scarf on him! I went quickly back to my seat!Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
More flags, direct action/protests...Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
C'mon Danny, you're a Doire man. Should know how these things work.
You should edit that into your original post. If people only see that they could assume you were reporting what you saw yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
I'm not sure how such measures would actually work though. More flags where? At European games next year? That would simply provoke further fines, would it not? What sort of direct action against UEFA? What form would the protest take? What would it achieve and who exactly is going to protest? None of this will change the fact that Dundalk have been fined due to the behaviour of an irresponsible few of their supporters acting against the best interests of their club. League of Ireland clubs don't have loose money to be flushing down the drain. If a small group of fans are going to breach their club's ground regulations and cost their club €18,000 for further breach of competition regulations as a direct result of their conduct, the very least they could do would be to take responsibility for their actions. It's a very reasonable expectation. I understand that Shamrock Rovers supporters, for example, acknowledge responsibility for their actions and cover any FAI fines their club incurs as a result of their use of flares and smoke bombs. That's a reasonable and decent position.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Indeed, there's far too much pointy-headed the-law-is-the-law-is-the-law crap in this thread already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin