Except that our players are good technically, otherwise most of them wouldn't be employed in the EPL. It's just other countries' players are even better.
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Except that our players are good technically, otherwise most of them wouldn't be employed in the EPL. It's just other countries' players are even better.
They are not good technically, playing Trap's cautious formation. And Trap's formation calls for a player like Green to be played over and above McCarthy and Gibson.
The players are not performing to their own standards and a few good players are being forsaken. That's what you'd call an all round management failure.
At least with Greece, you can observe the players (most of them) have technical proficiency and use their skills well, within their game plan.
Except his (or any) formation has very little to do with their technical skills. And even Paul Green is light years ahead of any of us.
Do though take the point about us not matching up to the sum of our parts currently, but as much to do with a lack of creativity.
A canny operator would have assimilated the mad bald bloke and perpetual fat one back into the squad, with the appropriate kicks up the hole. As at least there would have been another 'Plan B'...
Geysir there appears to be a change of tune here somewhat, are you saying, Trap is not the man for the job, given his current performance, with the players at his disposal?Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
I think that's where there's a misconception. Regardless of formation, technical skills are required to make it work and I pointed out Greece as an example. Somehow, whatever technical skills we have get suspended or reduced to the lowest common denominator. Trap's formation has also to do with using skills but there is a gap which has not been bridged. The gap between the players using their skills when required or opportune and Trap encouraging them to play it safe and crude. That gap was accentuated by the players succumbing to crude and safe and Trap's player selection criteria, eg preference for choosing Green over Gibson and McCarthy.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
My tune has been consistent.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Just as the game is ultimately about putting the ball in the net, results are what justify decisions that Trap has made and I only seriously look at results over a whole campaign. I was reasonably confident that Trap would get us to the Finals, this he did and we deserved it. I was confident we would have way too much experience for Armenia and Estonia in the pressure games.
I did not suddenly become deluded. Not to mention all those who turned from critic to OTT positivity. I thought we would be doing well to get one point. I even thought that we could play well and get no points. IMO, Croatia would have beaten any of the losing 1/4 finalists, Spain and Italy could grace the final. It was a tough group. Getting ripped apart by Spain was not unexpected and that scoreline was exaggerated by a few mistakes. The game against Italy was also expected, the game against Croatia was cursed but everything we were about, allowed those events to transpire.
Overall we were poor against much better teams and we didn't perform. There is no escape from that. What blocked that ability to perform lies mainly with Trap. What got us to the Finals is no longer valid.
I'd mainly go to an Ireland game to support the team and watch the game, I don't care for anything else, apart from the locality and conversations with sober people to pass the time before and after the game. I have only attended a couple of games under Trap. The home game against Bulgaria was a torrid spectacle on the pitch. Personally I wouldn't go to all the hassle and expense that I have to go through and risk another experience like that, and the risk is pretty high.
I'll make an effort to go to the Faroes, but more out of respect for the Faroe Islands than going to witness catenaccio Irish style, part 3.
'Mystic' Geysir is no more...
I see Sunderland has signed an agreement with an African NGO and Tullow Oil (an Irish company).Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskaFox
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-n...b-3150890.html
Obviously Tullow has shareholders to answer to and isn't a charitable organisation so would only do this if there's commercial logic to it in some sense.
However, given the mutual love-in between Ireland and Poland at the moment wouldn't some form of football co-operation- player exchanges, training etc. make sense with Euro 2012 as the catalyst?
Maybe Lech Poznan and Rovers' ultras can get together :)
I've emailed that guy at Tullow Oil before in a former guise as PRO for an organisation over here, i thought given our connections he might at least send me a PFO :(
They don't really seem to be very "Irish proud", sponsorship from a sports point of view anyway.
Why? Sure Sunderland AFC is more Irish than the Irish themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Looks like the shoite has finally started hitting the fan (no pun intended even if it is accurate).
And so it begins...
The press has turned on el Trap, will we see a repeat of McCarthys fate after 2002?
Poor results in Kazakhstan and when the Germans visit could see the axe fall.
I suspect Trap would survive poor results IF he takes a serious look at McCarthy, Gibson, McClean, Long etc in those games (or even a couple of them). Inflexibility is his most damning indictment at the moment.
But is he really capable of adapting now. He quite clearly stated we have to play his way because we aren't good enough to play like real footballers. How will that have changed. He has also shown he is not one to be turned by public opinion. The same cannot be said for the FAI, if the press demand it, Delaney will pull the trigger.
Juast reverting back to our woeful opass completion rate: Guardian today says Spain completed more passes in the first half against France than Portugal completed in two whole games. That's Portugal, not us. It's not as if they can't use the ball a bit.
Lee Carsley with more interesting stuff to say
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...18804865.html#
ANALYSIS: THE GENERAL reaction to Ireland and then England’s demise at the European Championships has been fairly similar – neither nation was good enough by half, be it technically or individually.
I think this stance is wrong.
Let’s start by looking at Scott Parker and Steven Gerrard; the cramped up, exhausted England midfield pairing from the other night’s defeat to Italy. Put them against any three-man midfield in the tournament and they were always going to struggle.
Any two chasing possession against three men will expend way more energy. Just look at the drained look on Parker’s face as he was hauled off or Gerrard cramping up on 71 minutes.
Around the same time the first beads of sweat dripped off Andrea Pirlo’s forehead. Glenn Whelan and the frustrated Keith Andrews had similar problems during their Pirlo passing tutorial.
The Italian playmaker is 33 but this obvious weakness was never tested because Italy constantly had the option of an extra body against both Ireland and England. Pirlo barely moves but the two midfielders in front of him had Gerrard and Parker on their toes.
The English backroom really should have made their boys sit through the Italy v Irish game. It was there for all to see. Yet no lesson was learned. We’re back to the 4-4-2 debate again. This problem will not go away.
There was an English plan. It was for Danny Welbeck and Wayne Rooney to alternate dropping off and putting pressure on the Italian puppetmaster. It was important for either Welbeck or Rooney to tackle from the wrong side of Pirlo. You don’t want them goal-side of him as the Italians can react to that. It worked a few times with Pirlo losing the ball and Italy immediately looking fragile.
A striker, by his very nature, is a free spirit so to ask Welbeck or Rooney to do a man-marker’s job throughout was a tactical flaw. Eventually they stopped doing the job. Same thing happened with Ireland’s front two. There were countless moments when the English, and Irish, strikers were five yards off Pirlo, sucking in oxygen as the Juve number 21 picked out his umpteenth pass deep in opposition territory.
England, or Ireland, could even have played with Parker, or Whelan, in front of two midfielders, with a simple brief to stop Pirlo. Stand on him for 90 minutes, or until Cesare Prandelli was forced to change. Then you react and frustrate them some more. Get stuck into them but do it cleverly. It would have become 10 versus 10 and made a massive difference.
I actually felt Ireland had more of a go against Italy than England. The extra man in midfield means a player must be sacrificed elsewhere. Neither Giovanni Trapattoni nor Roy Hodgson were prepared to do this. The better teams in this tournament have embraced this approach, giving up the attacking option out wide by going through the middle in numbers.
The Premiership is the best league in the world. Looking at the individuals that made up the England starting XI, I cannot see how Italy’s XI could be considered technically superior. Man for man, I believe England were the better side. But they didn’t go man for man. There was no individual pressure put on. Hodgson is a 4-4-2 advocate, always has been. He decided this was the simplest approach to get the players to buy into his management in the time frame available.
Prandelli, in contrast, went about winning the tournament by alternating from 3-5-2 against Spain and Croatia, changing mid-game to a 4-3-3, which he stuck with, but an even narrower version, against us. It was a different system for every game to counter the opposition.
They were clearly practising for weeks in training, constantly changing systems and personnel with a steely focus on beating every team they face (although I think Germany will prove too strong for everyone).
It is simple arithmetic, movement, awareness and industry. Three against two in the middle will always mean the two men are chasing shadows. Also, when you do get the ball, your options are few, if any.
The problem is the English/ Irish mentality, and the public reaction at attempts to change. I’ve experienced crowds at Lansdowne Road and English grounds growing frustrated with the ball being passed about. They want it sent up to our big striker without any creativity until we are around opponents’ 18-yard box.
The Spanish, Portuguese, Italians and Germans all seek to control the ball, and patiently work it upfield. That’s why the Premier League is considered the most exciting league in the world. Because it is so fast and furious.
When England sent on Andy Carroll, and it went directly up to him, the Italians struggled. Suddenly there was a hint of midfielders not tracking their runners. The only problem was so much energy had already been spent.
Now, it is time to think about the next World Cup in Brazil, with its climate and humidity, as well as the established passing approach of the major nations.
England and Ireland cannot simply switch philosophy in the next few weeks, but their current systems must change.
I would love to hear about a new on-field strategy for Irish football going for forward. Most importantly, it has to be the same style of play from the bottom up. Our representative teenagers must play the same all the way through the ranks so promotion into the senior squad is seamless.
At Coventry City, where I coach, we have a coaching methodology that starts at under-10 right up to the first team squad. This is nothing new at the best clubs all over the world.
Will Trapattoni seek to do this? Does he care about what happens to Ireland at underage or even at senior in two years’ time? Will he start going to club games in England that have Irish players on view? We’ve loads of ex-Irish internationals out there coaching – Kenny Cunningham, Gary Breen, Curtis Fleming, Graham Kavanagh, Alan McLoughlin and, of course, Chris Hughton.
Why not get one or two of them around the national team? Our first job should be to ensure no team, no matter how technically gifted, should be allowed waltz through our midfield lines during the next qualification campaign.
Even the Germans, potentially arriving as European champions in October, must not be permitted to do what others have done to us and to England. We’ve suffered enough under the current manager’s stubbornness.
why should the press have so much power?Quote:
Originally Posted by the bear
If the fans vote with their feet only then would it be reasonable for the FAI to act. If the hiring and firing of managers was led by the press we would have at least one change a year. when have they ever fully supported our manager?
No doubt trap needs to alter his ways to some extent but i dread the managerial dross we will have to pick from if he does go.
That's a nice read. Carsley understates the amount of ground Pirlo actually covers in a game. Pirlo covered more ground than Gerrard. Gerrard's exhaustion was not due to him covering more ground than Pirlo. That's besides the point anyway.
Lee repeats the good point that Sadlier made in an earlier piece about kids being taught to play one way but then they look at the national team who are playing like donkeys.
I have to say some of the talk on that show is very OTT. "Embarrassing". "Better not to be there at all". "We stank the tournament out".
exactly. who had the more disappointing tournament.... us or the Dutch? Id say the dutch by far. would they say it would be better if they hadnt been there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Lots of pie in the sky Football Manager type proposals and ideas from the people on that show. Fun to discuss but not realistic possibilities.
Glad you mentioned Holland. The head of the Dutch Football Association Bert Van Oosten has already had a meeting with Van Marwijk (who is contracted until 2016) with another one to follow in two weeks. Van Ooosten described the Holland teams performances as unworthy of the Orange shirt. “I cannot get into it too much so soon after the game. But I have received no signal that Van Marwijk wants to stop. The question is whether Bert is the man who can turn this situation around.” Exact questions Delaney should be asking but isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
Thanks to Uncle Joe for steering us towards this website. This is a great article:
http://www.thecoachdiary.com/grassro...ireland-fai-0/
I see Spain have sent their elite under 3s onto the pitch for some big time atmosphere experience. Gotta admire their far-sightedness. Are you watching FAI? :)
Was'nt it great that it was so well organised that the players could safely bring their kids onto the pitch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
It was a great advertisement for football.
Remember that the next time there's a pitch invasion at Croke Park and everyone says "you could never do that at a soccer game"Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
Spain didn't start playing like that yesterday, likewise Ireland aren't going to start playing like that tomorrow. Germany took stock of their position after Euro 2000 and started producing players like Kedira and Ozil, ten years later. Whatever success or failure the high performance plan at the FAI has, we won't be able to judge until the players in the program reach maturity, probably not for another seven years, minimum
Totally agree and the thing is that Germany did that in a massive footballing country with a very rich history. They don't have sports like GAA and Rugby to fight off also.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
I have a feeling that we will produce a really world class young player in the next few years. It could be someone like Robbie Brady or Alex Hanlon, but it is badly overdue going on our past ability to produce great players. We will be overjoyed and think we are marvellous for a small country (in a way we do have a great ability to produce great players so we should feel pride). However, this is only papering the cracks, of so much that is wrong with our game. It is no coincidence that St Kevin's are becoming the dominant schoolboy club in Dublin with Crumlin United very competitive also. I understand both clubs play football the "continental way" from a young age. Great schoolboy clubs like Belvo, Home Farm, Cherry Orchard and Joey's seem to be lagging behind and are not really producing what they used to.
A friend of mine coached a few years ago at a club called Knocklyon United, which would be a reasonably decent club in Dublin. His own team were exceptional and beating alot of the big schoolboy teams in Dublin and Cork in competitions. He wrote to a local LOI club and suggested that as alot of his players were beginning to be courted by English clubs, then perhaps they could represent that club, instead of Knocklyon United, so as to get them in to what he though would be a very good academy and really take them up a notch, to a level he didn't think he could take them. He suggested that they could amalgamate with that club's schoolboy team and be very competitive. The LOI club wrote back and stated they wouldn't be interested in this, as they have their own team. A short time later, the two clubs met and Knocklyon hammered them 6-0. He said that the LOI clubs coach had them playing hoof ball in to the corners.
In fairness, that LOI club has come on leaps and bounds since then and I have alot of time for their set-up with their stadium. However, it did get me thinking how LOI clubs should be getting top-class coaches and scouts running the rule over lads at local clubs in their areas and getting them in to their academys. While we will never have a really top club in this country, I don't see why we can't have a club at a leverl like Rosenborg or FC Copenhagen, filled with lads from local areas. We still produce great raw talent, if it could just be harnessed.
that club = Tallaght
If it was a few years ago then it was probably a different south Dublin club.
It is indeed;) To be fair that club have been making great progress and it was a few years ago. I don't know if their academy or youth recruitment system has changed, but clubs like Rovers should be linking up with local schoolboy clubs, by giving them top class coaching, in return they could identify exceptional local talent before English/Scottis clubs do. They could also be building up link ups with clubs down the country in counties like Laois and Offaly etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
At a national level, the FAI could then have regional academies to cherry pick the best academy talent at LOI and schoolboy clubs. For the players that might not want to go to England at 15/16 for a variety of reasons or are not good enough at that age, this might be enough to keep them motivated in the game and keep them involved.
Good to hear that Kevin's and Crumlin are coaching their kids the continental way, but not so good that LOI clubs are still playing hoof ball. I used play for Home Farm, and looking back all we were ever coaches was hoof ball, and I'm talking about the LOI team.
I knew, when I live at home, quite a few brilliant (creative) players - a friend of mine went to play in England and was one of the more creative players in a Cup FInal appearance against United - but they were never even looked at. Reason being they didn't fit into the 100 miles an hour profile of a player that English football demands. Good post on your part though, very informative.
And now that you mention it, how is Alex Hanlon doing? I heard great things about him. Also there was another lad who went with him to City wasn't it. Jack Byrne? Anyone know how he's doing?
It is interesting what you said about alot of the players that came from Ireland in the past that were so technically gifted, but went to the wrong clubs. I do think we often produce youth teams that are quite continental in how they play, but by the time they're older, they're a clone of typical British footballers. Even England never fully trusted many of their most gifted - Waddle, Hoddle and Barnes to name a few.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
I heard Ronnie Whelan saying that he was blessed that he went to Liverpool, where they recognised his strengths as a footballer and developed him, because they recognised that he was technically gifted. He reckoned he never would have been anything, if he had gone to another English club. He said that Jim Beglin was another player that was similar in that regard.
I understand that Alex Hanlon is doing very well, from talking with mates over there that follow the academy teams. They reckon he's a very good chance of making the grade and say he has exceptional talent. Because of his age they're cautios of talking him up too much though. They also rave about a lad from Belfast called McLoughlin, who is a bit older and reckon will make the 1st team squad in no time at all, maybe even this season. They said there's another Irish lad over there called Cleary who is very good also. Think he's a centre half.
Thanks Bungle. Keep the information coming. And while we're at it there's a younger lad in the Boston area - name of Owen Smith and his father's from the Liberties in Dublin. The kid is going to be the next Damien Duff, has a left foot which can make the ball talk.
Eh, whats his old mans name? Is he a mechanic by any chance?
Probably John smith!!Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/3...037_kay300.jpg
No, not him.
Not him either.
Does the FAI know about this guy Smith? Worth emailing them. Some here have done that already about other players and have got a response.