Robbed again

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

That would be "no better nor worse".

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I'm quoting your original post Gavin. From 9 posts ago - http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=815025&postcount=92

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Originally Posted by osarusan

I'm quoting your original post Gavin. From 9 posts ago.

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Yes, but the meaning you took from my original post was that Fine Gael would be "no better nor worse", i.e. the same.

what i actually said, "no better, or worse", means either the same OR worse. "Less than or equal to" in maths/programming logic.

I'd have thought that even beyond this simple syntax, the context would've given you a clue aswell.

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

And you have to analyse the alternative. If the alternative is no better, or worse, simply voting the opposition because of the imperfect performance of the incumbants is idiocy.

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So....your original post (above) actually means this-

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Well, apart from that not being what I meant, why would change necessarily be good? I mean, if they're capable of doing the same job, that doesnt mean that they'd immediately be ready. There is something to be said for continuity and stability.

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is this what you are saying?

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Originally Posted by osarusan

So....your original post actually means this-

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Well, apart from that not being what I meant, why would change necessarily be good? I mean, if they're capable of doing the same job, that doesnt mean that they'd immediately be ready. There is something to be said for continuity and stability.

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am I right?

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I dont know if you've read my last post, but heres the subtle clue

Ok, Gavin, in the interests of clarifying things, could you tell me what you mean in this post?

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

If the alternative is no better, or worse, simply voting the opposition because of the imperfect performance of the incumbants is idiocy.

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I interpreted it as meaning that you think that voting in another party who would perform at the same level as the incumbent party, just for the sake of change, is pointless.

Is this what you meant?

This is getting tiresome.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Ok, Gavin, in the interests of clarifying things, could you tell me what you mean in this post?

I interpreted it as meaning that you think that voting in another party who would perform at the same level as the incumbent party is pointless.

Is this what you meant?

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Yes, but the meaning you took from my original post was that Fine Gael would be "no better nor worse", i.e. the same.

what i actually said, "no better, or worse", means either the same OR worse. "Less than or equal to" in maths/programming logic.

I'd have thought that even beyond this simple syntax, the context would've given you a clue aswell.

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

There is something to be said for continuity and stability.

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The FAI said the same about Steve Staunton for nearly 2 years.

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Originally Posted by mypost

The FAI said the same about Steve Staunton for nearly 2 years.

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Staunton caused us unprecedented embarrassment. This government, while not performing perfectly, has brought us unprecedented success.

A fairer analogy would be Brian Kerr. Did very well in the early days, but didnt make himself very popular and despite still doing ok, was turfed out without much thought as to the alternative. The alternative was Enda Staunton. Would we have voted Staunton in if he was the only alternative?

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Staunton caused us unprecedented embarrassment. This government, while not performing perfectly, has brought us unprecedented success.

A fairer analogy would be Brian Kerr. Did very well in the early days, but didnt make himself very popular and despite still doing ok, was turfed out without much thought as to the alternative. The alternative was Enda Staunton.

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The alternative was a politician with as much political parliamentary experience as the Taoiseach himself, leading a party that doesn't have it's leader currently under investigation by the state, or a proven track record for underachievement in crime, education, health, transport, garda recruits, and numerous other areas.

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

what i actually said, "no better, or worse", means either the same OR worse. "Less than or equal to" in maths/programming logic.

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First of all, this is wrong. Saying "X would be no better, or worse, than Y" does not mean "X would be no better, and might be worse, than Y."

So-

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If the alternative is no better, or worse

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does not mean "if the alternative is no better, and might be worse".


"no better, but worse" would have conveyed what you meant, albeit with more certainty than you've said.
"no better, or it's worse" would also be correct.

Anyway, I don't want to get side-tracked on an issue of syntax contrasting with semantics ....
my point is that had FF been voted it out, it would have made them realise that they will be held accountable for what they do while in office. It was a missed chance in my opinion. That said, you have doubts about the ability of the opposition which I do not.

If you read any political thread, you will see that I have never blamed FF for all or even any of the current problems, not even my problems with interpreting poorly written statements.

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Staunton caused us unprecedented embarrassment. This government, while not performing perfectly, has brought us unprecedented success.

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To use a football example that is like the FAI claiming success for the Jack Charlton era but claiming no part in Staunton failures. Aside from Corporation tax policy I cannot think of a single government decision that has contributed to the current economic success... In every single matter that the government responsible for they have made a mess - Health, Transport, Infrastructure, Policing, Energy & Communications etc... Would love to know what the success of the government has been... :confused:

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Originally Posted by pete

To use a football example that is like the FAI claiming success for the Jack Charlton era but claiming no part in Staunton failures. Aside from Corporation tax policy I cannot think of a single government decision that has contributed to the current economic success... In every single matter that the government responsible for they have made a mess - Health, Transport, Infrastructure, Policing, Energy & Communications etc... Would love to know what the success of the government has been... :confused:

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Yeah, pete. thats all it was. Reduce the corp. tax and everyone will be driving SUVs and doing coke off a hooker's arse. Sure why didnt the other crowd think of that if it was so simple?

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Yeah, pete. thats all it was. Reduce the corp. tax and everyone will be driving SUVs and doing coke off a hooker's arse. Sure why didnt the other crowd think of that if it was so simple?

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Please enlighten us to the means Fianna Fail employed to ensure this economic boom anytime you want there Gavin.

And that's without mentioning that the majority in this country are now living off credit, and this is just for basic living here, and also without mentioning that even if FF gave us our boom, they have also presided over many disasters, such as the ones Pete mentioned, and might now be considered a bit stale as a governing party. Plus saying the government are not performing perfectly is as much an understatement as rapists don't particularly adhere to the law

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Originally Posted by pete

Aside from Corporation tax policy I cannot think of a single government decision that has contributed to the current economic success...

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And even that was Ruairi Quinn as a Rainbow Minister of Finance....

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Originally Posted by jebus

Please enlighten us to the means Fianna Fail employed to ensure this economic boom anytime you want there Gavin.

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...does tipping off property developers about planned infrastructural routes count for anything? ...Faciltating them in subdividing their landbanks to avoid their social housing quota obligations? ...buying a tent and hiring caterers?

Do all these things count for nothing?:)

The last time the opposition actually won an election was in 1982 and that Government (1982-87)presided over the worst economic times since the 1950's. Massive Unemployment, Massive Taxation, Massive Emigration and Massive National debts.
Whether or not anyone else at the time could have done significantly better is neither here no there . I think some people who survived the 1980's vote FF as much from the folk memory of those days as much as anything else.

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

The last time the opposition actually won an election was in 1982 and that Government (1982-87)presided over the worst economic times since the 1950's. Massive Unemployment, Massive Taxation, Massive Emigration and Massive National debts.
Whether or not anyone else at the time could have done significantly better is neither here no there . I think some people who survived the 1980's vote FF as much from the folk memory of those days as much as anything else.

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I'd say the opposition could've done better if it wasn't for the mess they were left with. Just as the current Government can't take the credit for the celtic tiger which was a largely sparked off as a result of rainbow policies, FF can't wash their hands of the mess that was left by them post 77. It's a pity the FF Folk Memory has skipped the bit were FF implemented all the belt tightening policies they'd opposed as soon as they got in in 87 (actually saw them and raised them!).

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

Whether or not anyone else at the time could have done significantly better is neither here no there . I think some people who survived the 1980's vote FF as much from the folk memory of those days as much as anything else.

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The problems caused at the time, were from both sides. When FG/Labour, and FF, later FF/PD's were in power, there was no change in the situation, until the FG led, rainbow coalition in 1995 began the recovery. FF/PD's took it on from there, and have had 10 years to run this country well. Bertie is the longest serving Premier in the EU.

So after 10 years of money, money, and more money, why is the country still banjaxed in so many areas?? :confused:

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Originally Posted by mypost

The problems caused at the time, were from both sides. When FG/Labour, and FF, later FF/PD's were in power, there was no change in the situation, until the FG led, rainbow coalition in 1995 began the recovery. FF/PD's took it on from there, and have had 10 years to run this country well. Bertie is the longest serving Premier in the EU.

So after 10 years of money, money, and more money, why is the country still banjaxed in so many areas?? :confused:

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my post you are spot on with your summary.
And as for previous posters when FG came in after the 1973 election the Budget deficit was only 5 million quid. Which given the population was 3.1 million wasn't a heck of a lot. All governments from 1973 on to 1987 KEEPING their election promises screwed up the economy. As for the 1987 FF government implementing cuts they were backed on that issue by FG and the alternative was to have the World Bank come in and manage the economy. That's how bad things were in 1987. We would never have had any progress if those cuts had not happened. However the services cut back have never recovered which is a bit odd given how much money there was slushing around in the economy over the last 10 years or so.

We are better off sometimes when politicians do not keep their promises , when having examined the books they see the real situation and adjust accordingly. Inability to envisage and project forwards in this country. Lack of vision lack of joined up thinking. It's across the board not just confined to politicians of any persuasion. We have been coloured by history to think of the population as declining . To be fair it was from 1831 to around 1966 but for the last 40 years or more it's been on the rise.

We haven't adjusted that mindset fully neither have we got used to the fact that people want to move here instead of queuing up to leave.

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

As for the 1987 FF government implementing cuts they were backed on that issue by FG and the alternative was to have the World Bank come in and manage the economy. That's how bad things were in 1987. We would never have had any progress if those cuts had not happened. However the services cut back have never recovered which is a bit odd given how much money there was slushing around in the economy over the last 10 years or so.

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How could they oppose what were FG policies? It wasn't that FF broke election promises, it's that they spent the previous years attacking those very policies, then when they came to power they actually went for more severe cuts. They campaigned on opposing those cuts ffs.

It is strange that the opposition haven't gone to town on the service levels, given FF cut them, and have been in power for the boom times yet haven't got them back to 1987 levels. Allowing for the population growth, even then, it'd still be way down on 87 levels in real terms.