Ahern Calls For All-reland League

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hooperatzi

Do me a favour! :rolleyes:

You don't want a united Irish team because you are a unionist. Just say it ffs.

To answer the question, probablt the 'Republic', because it represents them better. So what?

---

No.

I support Northern Ireland because I was born and reared in Northern Ireland.

I have supported Northern ireland since I was a boy, through good times and bad, and I will support Northern Ireland until my dying day.

Nothing more, nothing less.

I don't want the Northern Ireland team to merge with anyone - be that the Republic of Ireland, the rest of the UK, or even Brazil.

Who republicans support, no matter where they were born and reared, is entirely up to them.

Please don't expect Northern Ireland fans to jump through hoops for those who actively seek the demise of the Northern Ireland team.

If changes re anthem and flags etc are to come about, they will come about because Northern Ireland fans want them to - certainly not at the behest of those who would prefer "Northern" Ireland didn't exist.

Those discussions and debates (quite heated at times) are going on within the ranks of the Northern Ireland support.

Northern Ireland fans will decide what's best for us - nobody else.

I guess the patriotism of Northern Irish fans is no more, or less, than that associated with being a Republic of Ireland fan.

I take it you support the Republic because you were born there, not because of any political statement?

Please accept that Northern Ireland fans are exactly the same.

Hooperatzi,

"Firstly, I have consistantly stated that for various reasons the Norn Iron football community will be highly unlikely to give up their national side."

Of course, the "football community" in Northern Ireland comprises more than Northern Ireland fans. You are absolutely spot on about supporters of the national team tho.

"But you are on a different planet if you cant see why the side is an anathema to 45% of the population."

I can fully see thanks - I live, work and socialise in Northern Ireland with people from both traditions in Northern Ireland. I understand full well the issues. I accept and respect that 45% of people don't support the Northern Ireland team.

"The mask slipped a bit for the Who republicans support, no matter where they were born and reared, is entirely up to them" comment."

No mask on me. I respect people's right to support who they feel most comfortable with.

"Your comparisons with brazil are laughable. Brazil doesnt have a long running colonail border dispute with Argentina and claim it as a province."

Erm - I was joking.

"There is a uniqueness to the 6 county side and is disengenious to suggest otherwise. You are not 'just another country/national team' no matter how many times you say it. Whether it be the UK dimension or the all island one"

I know where I was born. I will not deny my birthright, even if you do.

The six county side is called Northern Ireland, by the way.

"And yes, lots of people would like the added political bonus of uniting the two sports as it would be hugely symbolic"

Not Northern Ireland supporters. Never mind "political bonuses". We support Northern Ireland because that's our place of birth. We want nothing to do with "symbolic" merges.

"Lets just stop beating around the bush. I oppose partition and as such oppose the NI team as a concept"

I respect your viewpoint. Please respect my differing viewpoint. I'll not beat around the bush either - I oppose unification, and oppose a unified football team as a concept.

"Nothing personal mate, but to me its a (admittedly improving) symbol of loyalist fervour and jingoistism"

Nothing personal either, but to me and the majority of people who were born and live in it, it's simply "home".

And home is where the heart is.

To me, things are pretty simple.

If you support and identify with Northern Ireland, fine.

If you support and identify with the ROI, that's fine too.

Whatever suits you best.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hooperatzi

which is what i said four posts ago... ;)

---

And, I should have added, I am tentatively supportive of the concept of an All Ireland league.:eek: :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hooperatzi

Lets face it, Rovers v Linfield has huge potential! ;)

---

Although, for me, it would never muster the same emotions as a Blues v Glens match.

No disrespect to you or Rovers.

I don't care about the National teams.Papering over cracks as far as I am concerned.We need All-Ireland league, but it must be done 110% properly.

In terms of needing the domestic league...could the Fai and Ifa both get away with having the 'Second Division' (the teams not yet good enough for the AIL) of each respective juristiction as the domestic leagues, and then just issue european places to the teams in the AIL?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Swap supporting the ROI for supporting Northern Ireland?

---

It's too late for that, with the fans of here and now (though no reason why active fans couldn't watch both sidesx - I know some who do). It's more about the future really.

Every single day, a whole new batch of football fans are literally being born in Northern Ireland. Some of those will go on to support a national team from these islands because of who their family and friends support. Otherrs because of their religion or where they live. But given that they won't be of an age to regularly attend games on their own for at least 15 years, and given the ongoing thaw in relations the peace process is thnakfully creating, it's highly likely that by 2022+ a lot of those won't just slavishly adopt a national team on the basis of their religion. It's highly likely that a lot of them will want to do what the Welsh, the Scots, the French etc do - i.e. just support their own wee patch of the planet.

However - if they find that the team is tied-up with symbolism of only one of the 2 communities in the province, then they will find themselves effectively forced into making a decision on the basis of their cultural identity and/or religion.

So you could sit their smugly and insinuate 'Feck any change - them Taigs would never come support us even if we put Gerry Adams in goals', but it's more about the legion of fresh unclaimed citizens and football supporters being churned out every day to replace the pre-determineds like you and me. Whilst your team clings to tribal antics like the footballing version of painted kerbstones, in a society that is continually dissolving such polarising shiboleths, then you will continue to force more of these young fresh 'unclaimed' supporters away from your team.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

The "team" rejects nothing of their "identity" by the way.

---

Pleeeaaaassssse ! :o "The team" is just another way of saying 'Northern Ireland'. I can't exactly call it a club, can I ? It doesn't matter if it was represented by 11 former IRA prisoners on the pitch, for as long as the team has to stand to attention for the flag and anthem of only one of the 2 communities in Northern Ireland, then it will be a polarising thing. Semantics don't change that...

dcfcsteve,

"it's highly likely that by 2022+ a lot of those won't just slavishly adopt a national team on the basis of their religion"

I refute this "religion" stuff.

Would you not agree that it's more of a cultural identity/political decision by most, rather than a decision based on theological interpretation?

I would guess that a very low percentage of attendees at Northern Ireland games actively practice any strand of exactly the same religion.

"So you could sit their smugly and insinuate 'Feck any change - them Taigs would never come support us even if we put Gerry Adams in goals', but it's more about the legion of fresh unclaimed citizens and football supporters being churned out every day to replace the pre-determineds like you and me."

"Taigs" would not be language that I would use to describe anyone.

I am pro change. I want a new, sporting, anthem to represent Northern Ireland international teams. I am open to discussion on the flag issue.

Whilst not my primary motivation for such changes, if it has the net effect of bringing in more "fresh unclaimed citizens" to our matches, I would be delighted.

The point I make is that the fact that our team represents the six counties that constitute "Northern Ireland" is enough to alienate a sizeable section of the nationalist/republican community in Northern Ireland.

Through the pages of this board alone, you will see that many have a reluctance to even refer to the place by it's name - it's "Northern Ireland".

The blunt truth is that the name will not change.

"Whilst your team clings to tribal antics"

I believe that the issue of anthems and flags flown at sporting occassions in Northern Ireland should be considered in the round.

It is more than "tribal antics", as you describe them, at Northern Ireland football matches that should be considered.

I continue to lobby for a new, "sporting", anthem to represent the Northern Ireland football team.

Wales and Scotland do it, England may soon do it, so I argue why shouldn't we do it. I believe such a move would reinforce our "Northern Irish" identity, not diminish it.

Maybe we should just scrap anthems at football matches altogether?

My "national" anthem will, however, always be that of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Wales and Scotland do it, England may soon do it, so I argue why shouldn't we do it. I believe such a move would reinforce our "Northern Irish" identity, not diminish it.

---

would the majority of supporters in windsor pk be of this opinion? how about Danny Boy as a song and the flag being the team crest on a plain green background (i think i've seen supporters waving this before).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Maybe we should just scrap anthems at football matches altogether?

---

:rolleyes: the anthem is meant to symbolise the team representing the country and it also raises atmosphere levels in a football ground. the idea of scrapping it may be viewed as an option by you in relation to NI but to the rest of the world's teams it is simply a non-runner.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

My "national" anthem will, however, always be that of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

---

so why the problem with mine being Amhrán na bhFiann

Galwayhoop,

"would the majority of supporters in windsor pk be of this opinion? how about Danny Boy as a song and the flag being the team crest on a plain green background (i think i've seen supporters waving this before)"

I don't think a majority would be of the same opinion at this time.

However, a growing number are being persuaded of the merits of a new, "sporting" anthem for Northern Ireland games.

I would say opinions are equally divided amongst no change at all, change to a new, "sporting" anthem and "the third way" ie. GSTQ in Belfast, together with a new, "sporting" anthem - akin to the practice of the IRFU.

"the anthem is meant to symbolise the team representing the country and it also raises atmosphere levels in a football ground. the idea of scrapping it may be viewed as an option by you in relation to NI but to the rest of the world's teams it is simply a non-runner"

That's Sepp Blatter told off (again) then.:D

"so why the problem with mine being Amhrán na bhFiann"

I have no problem with yours being Amhrán na bhFiann.

I don't know where you got that idea from.

I have stood in respect of your national anthem on many occassions - most recently at the ROI v San Marino fixture in Dublin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Nothing personal either, but to me and the majority of people who were born and live in it, it's simply "home".

And home is where the heart is.

To me, things are pretty simple.

If you support and identify with Northern Ireland, fine.

If you support and identify with the ROI, that's fine too.

Whatever suits you best.

---

Amen Brother!

this is ridiculous! "northern ireland" is not a country, it is an administrative region, Ireland is the country of which the northern part is occupied and administered by a foreign government, the fact that a few settlers want to call themselves a country is irrelevant.

FYI i spend alot of time up north, would stay up there up to 3 days out of every week i would not class it as leaving the country or even crossing a border, the only thing that changes are the road signs and horrible red post boxes. they accept euros in most places and some ATMs even dispense euros. none of the people who I know consider themselves as "northern Irish" the are usually Irish or British. the whole concept of "Northern Ireland" is a farce, sure you bank notes even say "bank of Ireland". Re-unification is inevitable, the first thing to merge will be the police, football will be forced to merge sooner or later. the concept of "northern ireland" is a dying one. now wheres my tin of green paint so i can paint those post boxes the right colour!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by s-side hoop

this is ridiculous! "northern ireland" is not a country, it is an administrative region, Ireland is the country of which the northern part is occupied and administered by a foreign government, the fact that a few settlers want to call themselves a country is irrelevant.

FYI i spend alot of time up north, would stay up there up to 3 days out of every week i would not class it as leaving the country or even crossing a border, the only thing that changes are the road signs and horrible red post boxes. they accept euros in most places and some ATMs even dispense euros. none of the people who I know consider themselves as "northern Irish" the are usually Irish or British. the whole concept of "Northern Ireland" is a farce, sure you bank notes even say "bank of Ireland". Re-unification is inevitable, the first thing to merge will be the police, football will be forced to merge sooner or later. the concept of "northern ireland" is a dying one. now wheres my tin of green paint so i can paint those post boxes the right colour!

---

:D

Here we go......

KOH

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

:D

Here we go......

KOH

---

Indeed!!

Just when things were reasonably quiet and rational.

But not for long more!

s-side-hoop.

"this is ridiculous! "northern ireland" is not a country, it is an administrative region, Ireland is the country of which the northern part is occupied and administered by a foreign government, the fact that a few settlers want to call themselves a country is irrelevant."

Thanks for that contribution. Northern Ireland is my place of birth, and my home. I am not a "settler". I was born in Northern Ireland.

"FYI i spend alot of time up north, would stay up there up to 3 days out of every week i would not class it as leaving the country or even crossing a border, the only thing that changes are the road signs and horrible red post boxes. they accept euros in most places and some ATMs even dispense euros"

Great stuff.

"none of the people who I know consider themselves as "northern Irish" the are usually Irish or British"

I think you'll find that those of us who support the Northern Ireland team, consider ourselves Northern Irish. We might be Irish or British, or even both - but when we go to support Northern Ireland, we're Northern Irish.

"the whole concept of "Northern Ireland" is a farce. Re-unification is inevitable, the first thing to merge will be the police, football will be forced to merge sooner or later"

Well, until this "inevitable" unification comes about politically, we'll be supporting Northern Ireland.

Interesting use of the word "forced". I for one don't believe that "Ireland" can ever be truly "united" in any shape or form, until it's people are united. Unity comes through agreement, not force.

"the concept of "northern ireland" is a dying one"

Certainly not at the moment amongst it's football fans - good times rarely seemed so good.

Onwards and Upwards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by s-side hoop

this is ridiculous! "northern ireland" is not a country, it is an administrative region,

---

Thats all any country is. All borders are arbitrary.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Interesting use of the word "forced". I for one don't believe that "Ireland" can ever be truly "united" in any shape or form, until it's people are united. Unity comes through agreement, not force.

---

Fully endorsed. Self determination must work both ways.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

Thats all any country is. All borders are arbitrary.

---

According to members of the 4th International and other out-dated Trots and Reds maybe but I suspect the UN and EU might disagree with you on the arbitary nature of national borders. :rolleyes:

KOH

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

I suspect the UN and EU might disagree with you on the arbitary nature of national borders. :rolleyes:

KOH

---

Seeing as how they are both constantly in the business of re-drawing maps they would be in no position to do so. Before the 17th century there was no such thing as the nation state. Germany and Italy didn't have it until the 19th century.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

According to members of the 4th International and other out-dated Trots and Reds

KOH

---

Throwing insults around does not an arguement make.