20 Teams, 2 Divisions, 1 National League

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Where's the evidence to support the assertion that Dublin non-league clubs have growing strength?

So where is the evidence of growing strength from Dublin non-league clubs?

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I was referring to the growth of the existing (Senior) Dublin clubs. You know, Shams, Bohs, Shels and Pats, clubs which are going from (ahem) strength to strength.

So that if you concentrate your resources in those established footballing areas where these will produce the best results, then you can hope to build outwards from there.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Meanwhile the current Junior Cup holders are Cockhill Celtic from Donegal, who beat Wexford club Gorey in the last final.

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That would be the same Cockhill Celtic who back in September lost to Enniskillen Rangers in the Presidents Cup Final, a trophy contested between the IFA and FAI Junior Cup Champions?
https://www.fermanaghandwestern.com/...tail/10092196/

For information, Ekn Rgrs are one of five football clubs in a town of 14k people, which incidentally has one GAA club and one Rugby club. I'd venture that their (self-owned) ground is better than that of many (most? all?) of those Intermediate clubs you mention, yet they are a resolutely Junior club in NI terms.

The point being that as the pyramid in NI has developed over the last couple of decades, it has done so by first spreading out from the existing centres of football - Belfast, Antrim, Mid-Ulster etc - then into newer, less traditional areas, to incorporate the likes of Dungannon Swifts, Ballinamallard Utd and Warrenpoint Tn.

I have no doubt that had the IFA attempted to parachute such clubs into the upper tiers of IL from the start, rather than requiring them to work their way up to Senior status as and when they merited it, then they'd have died on their arse long before they got there.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Such as?

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It was a rhetorical question.

But on the basis that there must be some reason(s), I'm merely wondering what those might be.

I'll leave it to others with much greater knowledge than me to suggest exactly what they must be.

Unless, of course, you or someone else can assure me that there are no reasons at all, it is solely a matter of chance, a simple twist of fate, a mystery even.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

I was referring to the growth of the existing (Senior) Dublin clubs. You know, Shams, Bohs, Shels and Pats, clubs which are going from (ahem) strength to strength.

So that if you concentrate your resources in those established footballing areas where these will produce the best results, then you can hope to build outwards from there.

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Got you. Though you did state it in a sentence where your list included the Connacht and Ulster senior/non-leagues. And another poster (BigEars) similarly responded to you in the belief that you were referring to Dublin non-league clubs as well.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

That would be the same Cockhill Celtic who back in September lost to Enniskillen Rangers in the Presidents Cup Final, a trophy contested between the IFA and FAI Junior Cup Champions?
https://www.fermanaghandwestern.com/...tail/10092196/

For information, Ekn Rgrs are one of five football clubs in a town of 14k people, which incidentally has one GAA club and one Rugby club. I'd venture that their (self-owned) ground is better than that of many (most? all?) of those Intermediate clubs you mention, yet they are a resolutely Junior club in NI terms.

The point being that as the pyramid in NI has developed over the last couple of decades, it has done so by first spreading out from the existing centres of football - Belfast, Antrim, Mid-Ulster etc - then into newer, less traditional areas, to incorporate the likes of Dungannon Swifts, Ballinamallard Utd and Warrenpoint Tn.

I have no doubt that had the IFA attempted to parachute such clubs into the upper tiers of IL from the start, rather than requiring them to work their way up to Senior status as and when they merited it, then they'd have died on their arse long before they got there.

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Enniskillen Rangers - who aren't a Dublin club either. So thanks for reinforcing my point here :D

Good to see you making their case for membership of the new National League North though. Hopefully they follow up on your proposal.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

It was a rhetorical question.

But on the basis that there must be some reason(s), I'm merely wondering what those might be.

I'll leave it to others with much greater knowledge than me to suggest exactly what they must be.

Unless, of course, you or someone else can assure me that there are no reasons at all, it is solely a matter of chance, a simple twist of fate, a mystery even.

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Well from your last line you're clearly insinuating that there is some reason(s) behind it all.

Mullingar Town and especially Mullingar Athletic famously both wanted to join the LOI at the turn of this century - with Athletic bringing over a load of Londonders to play for them to boost their team as part of this. Athletic came very close to replacing St Francis in 2002 when the FAI asked for expressions of interest from quite a few clubs. But they were eventually pipped to the place by the formation of Kildare County instead, after which the Mullingar clubs seemed to lose interest. So that would probably clear up the mystery for one of those towns you listed anyway.

I've personaly never heard of any clubs in Portlaoise or Ennis having any interest in joinging rhe LOI (others may know differently), which is probably just the very simple answer to those places. Portlaoise (to an extent) and especially Ennis are not particularly strong footballing towns or counties anyway. Plus Portlaoise wasn't a particularly big place anyway until about 20 or so years ago, but has experienced rapid population growth since.

Navan gets mentioned every so often as a possible place for a Meath LOI entrant by a certain former FAI chief, but that has yet to actually turn into anything : ‘Full launch’ of League of Ireland club in Meath on horizon | Meath Chronicle

Any other large towns across the country you want to hint at dubious reasons for their absence from the LOI? :p Tullamore? Carlow? Castlebar? Letterkenny? Why have large towns like Antrim and Newtonabbey never had a senior club in the north? Is it solely a matter of chance, a simple twist of fate, a mystery even? Or to quote that great football philosopher Tom Jones, is it simply that it's not unusual?

https://www.donegallive.ie/news/socc...lications.html

Bonagee United also interested in entering the new league along with Letterkenny and Cockhill ….

Did someone say Mervue, Salthill and Galway...?

The hazard of an invitational league as opposed to an open pyramid

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Originally Posted by joey B

https://www.donegallive.ie/news/socc...lications.html

Bonagee United also interested in entering the new league along with Letterkenny and Cockhill ….

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3 clubs from one smal area of Donegal would be madness IMO. But the FAI may well be desparate for the numbers. And it could well draw good crowds for their derbies (?).

Chuck in Fanad and the National League North starts to look like a Donegal invitational tournament :D

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Got you. Though you did state it in a sentence where your list included the Connacht and Ulster senior/non-leagues. And another poster (BigEars) similarly responded to you in the belief that you were referring to Dublin non-league clubs as well.

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My point was that when the present four Senior Dublin clubs can thrive as they so clearly are, and with Greater Dublin being so big and wealthy a footballing centre as it clearly is, then surely it offers potential for wider growth beyond the confines of those four clubs? After all, Belfast can sustain four Senior clubs in the Premiership, plus another three in the Championship.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Enniskillen Rangers - who aren't a Dublin club either. So thanks for reinforcing my point here :D

Good to see you making their case for membership of the new National League North though. Hopefully they follow up on your proposal.

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My point about the Presidents Cup/ERFC comparison is that it shows Cockhill to be a small club in a small town (no offence to either), and as such are miles short in every respect of even FD clubs in the LOI. Therefore it is extremely hard to see how they could be competitive as a (genuinely) third level club, never mind able to survive if they somehow should get promoted.

Which is not to say that they, and Donegal generally, could never support a second Senior club, since as a county, it does appear to "get" football, despite its distance from the other main footballing centres in ROI. But parachuting a little club like Cockhill into the new set-up in such a way is a huge risk to the club itself (see past failures), while doing nothing for the establishment of a genuine third tier in a pyramid.

Far better to require/assist them to build from the bottom up over time, in competition with the best of other aspiring clubs, and regardless of where they're located, whether it be Dublin 2 or Achill Island!

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Well from your last line you're clearly insinuating that there is some reason(s) behind it all.

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I don't pretend to know what those reasons are, but there must be some explanation(s) why eg Ballybofey/Stranorlor have sustained Senior football for over half a century, while Letterkenny with x 4 the population never has.

The point being that unless/until those reasons are identified and addressed, then such unrepresented towns/areas must be very unlikely to be able to support a new Senior club, whether it be newly created or an existing club suddenly elevated from Junior status.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Any other large towns across the country you want to hint at dubious reasons for their absence from the LOI? :p Tullamore? Carlow? Castlebar? Letterkenny? Why have large towns like Antrim and Newtonabbey never had a senior club in the north? Is it solely a matter of chance, a simple twist of fate, a mystery even? Or to quote that great football philosopher Tom Jones, is it simply that it's not unusual?

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As I say, I'm not qualified to speculate on those other towns, never mind insinuating that whatever reasons there are must be "dubious".

As for Antrim, the town did in fact have a Senior club for a number of years, Chimney Corner FC, who moved up and between the second and third tiers, before finally dropping down to Intermediate football just over a decade ago. The ostensible reason was that they could not promise to meet the IFA's new requirements following a further league reorganisation etc, but in practice it was probably because Antrim, a town of 25k, already has another 5 or 6 football clubs, thereby diluting resources in the same way as you see eg in Enniskillen.

As for Newtownabbey, while technically a "town", in practice it is a collection of villages, overspill from Belfast and general urban sprawl that didn't really exist until the very late 1950's - effectively a new town. As such, footballing loyalties and identities either lay with larger, long-existing clubs in the wider area, or have been diluted amongst existing Junior clubs within Newtwonabbey itself.

All of which is why the IFA has never attempted to promote or create a Senior club from either town, instead if they are to achieve Senior status, they must do it the same way as everyone else i.e. working their way up the pyramid.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

3 clubs from one smal area of Donegal would be madness IMO. But the FAI may well be desparate for the numbers. And it could well draw good crowds for their derbies (?).

Chuck in Fanad and the National League North starts to look like a Donegal invitational tournament :D

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There's as much chance of Foot.ie United as there is of Fanad United joining the national league. There's been zero suggestion of it other than nintendo64 here

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

3 clubs from one smal area of Donegal would be madness IMO. But the FAI may well be desparate for the numbers. And it could well draw good crowds for their derbies (?).

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I'd say that Cockhill is different area than the two Letterkenny clubs, TBF, who themselves aren't far from Ballybofey.
As pointed out, that's the problem with an invitational league. Can the FAI turn them down simply because they're close to another club? Probably not.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

My point was that when the present four Senior Dublin clubs can thrive as they so clearly are, and with Greater Dublin being so big and wealthy a footballing centre as it clearly is, then surely it offers potential for wider growth beyond the confines of those four clubs? After all, Belfast can sustain four Senior clubs in the Premiership, plus another three in the Championship.

Far better to require/assist them to build from the bottom up over time, in competition with the best of other aspiring clubs, and regardless of where they're located, whether it be Dublin 2 or Achill Island!

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Okay, now I'm getting confused, because you had said the Dublin region should get priority and more emphasis put on it than other parts of the country. But you've always so said "look to strengthen and expand by encouraging and rewarding the most progressive clubs via a pyramid, irrespective of where they are located."

Currently clubs in Munster (and Donegal) have been outperforming ones in Dublin in Intermediate and Junior Cups. Some of those clubs have better infrastructure as well.

So what exactly is your proposal, give Dublin an advantage because currently they've got more strong senior clubs ?, or allow a natural pyramid that lets the best clubs rise to the top ?

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

3 clubs from one smal area of Donegal would be madness IMO.

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Sounds like history repeating itself. When the academy leagues have mainly only allowed clubs, previously clubs or entities, from non LoI areas, seems desperation and madness not to extend the same to the Third Tier.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

I don't pretend to know what those reasons are, but there must be some explanation(s) why eg Ballybofey/Stranorlor have sustained Senior football for over half a century, while Letterkenny with x 4 the population never has.

The point being that unless/until those reasons are identified and addressed, then such unrepresented towns/areas must be very unlikely to be able to support a new Senior club, whether it be newly created or an existing club suddenly elevated from Junior status.

As I say, I'm not qualified to speculate on those other towns, never mind insinuating that whatever reasons there are must be "dubious".

As for Antrim, the town did in fact have a Senior club for a number of years, Chimney Corner FC, who moved up and between the second and third tiers, before finally dropping down to Intermediate football just over a decade ago. The ostensible reason was that they could not promise to meet the IFA's new requirements following a further league reorganisation etc, but in practice it was probably because Antrim, a town of 25k, already has another 5 or 6 football clubs, thereby diluting resources in the same way as you see eg in Enniskillen.

As for Newtownabbey, while technically a "town", in practice it is a collection of villages, overspill from Belfast and general urban sprawl that didn't really exist until the very late 1950's - effectively a new town. As such, footballing loyalties and identities either lay with larger, long-existing clubs in the wider area, or have been diluted amongst existing Junior clubs within Newtwonabbey itself.

All of which is why the IFA has never attempted to promote or create a Senior club from either town, instead if they are to achieve Senior status, they must do it the same way as everyone else i.e. working their way up the pyramid.

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Re, chimney corner, when they played in the center of Antrim town and we're in the old B division they often had 500 or more at home matches. When they moved 1 mile out of the town things started to go down for them and it went down quickly. They now play in the Ballymena Provincial League and are struggling each year.

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Originally Posted by Shinkicker

Re, chimney corner, when they played in the center of Antrim town and we're in the old B division they often had 500 or more at home matches. When they moved 1 mile out of the town things started to go down for them and it went down quickly. They now play in the Ballymena Provincial League and are struggling each year.

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Yep, even when I used to play a bit out that way, many years ago, Corner were a reasonably big name in local football circles.

And having fallen away since, as you say, they are now hampered from reviving by competition locally, with 3 or 4 clubs currently playing at the Antrim Forum alone.

Anyone follow the Tom Safford LOI Group Chat and the 'The Irish Football Pyramid - or lack of (part 1 to 4).
I think its on Facebook & Extratime.ie if you are interested. Good read as I wasn't aware of it.

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Originally Posted by nr637

Anyone follow the Tom Safford LOI Group Chat and the 'The Irish Football Pyramid - or lack of (part 1 to 4).
I think its on Facebook & Extratime.ie if you are interested. Good read as I wasn't aware of it.

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yeah will read it on extratime in next while.

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Originally Posted by nr637

Anyone follow the Tom Safford LOI Group Chat and the 'The Irish Football Pyramid - or lack of (part 1 to 4).
I think its on Facebook & Extratime.ie if you are interested. Good read as I wasn't aware of it.

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From reading about the convoluted set-up in Leinster, I kinda understand why the FAI are feckin' about with a Third Tier, instead of sorting out the base of the pyramid first and building upwards.

"Byzantine" doesn't even come close.

I don't think the FAI will allow 2/3 clubs from the same area join the third tier such as Donegal or Galway. It will only cause conflict. I think Galway United have a good relationship now with league football in the County and it's similar with Finn Harps especially with their stadium saga which will be for the benefit for all football in the area, if it was built!

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

From reading about the convoluted set-up in Leinster, I kinda understand why the FAI are feckin' about with a Third Tier, instead of sorting out the base of the pyramid first and building upwards.

"Byzantine" doesn't even come close.

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Agreed, and I think that's where we would differ from the North's ability to bring in big structural changes relatively quickly.

While Leinster is convoluted, it's also still powerful and can block changes to the game that it dislikes. The Leinster FA alone has the same number of votes at the General Assembly as all the Premier Division teams combined.