Saipan - 20 Years On

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12/05/2022, 3:41 PM
seanfhear

Quote:

Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

Yeah let's move on to Thierry Henry.

All Hands on Deck !
12/05/2022, 3:50 PM
SkStu

Quote:

Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

A row and a handshake tho stu? If most players and managers went back over their career (particularly in their era) there would be similar events. Quinn's account of the Boston row doesn't paint McCarthy in the greatest light either (targeting the youngest player when half the team were on the ****) so I wouldn't be putting too much weight on it other than to say they didn't get on and it went back a fair way.

McCarthy should have been able to manage around that to get his best player going and he failed to do so. If anything he antagonized Keane.

Is Keane blameless? No. But I see why he was fuming about Saipan more than I see why McCarthy made the decisions he did to manage to situation. I still just don't understand calling that team meeting and slapping the newspaper on the table. What did he think was going to happen? David Brent would have done a better job.

But ultimately I still blame the FAI more than anyone.

While responsibility can be apportioned out on the whole debacle for sure, I just think the bottom line, for me, is that it is simply unacceptable that you walk out on your teammates and your country on the eve of a World Cup - no matter how right you think you are.
12/05/2022, 3:57 PM
Diggs246

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exgrad

Would really like to see some evidence something along these lines was said. I don't believe it was.

I cant give u cctv footage
But I'm pretty sure this is accepted as fact by those who were there( the whole squad)

Are u saying its false?
12/05/2022, 4:10 PM
ontheotherhand

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkStu

While responsibility can be apportioned out on the whole debacle for sure, I just think the bottom line, for me, is that it is simply unacceptable that you walk out on your teammates and your country on the eve of a World Cup - no matter how right you think you are.

Will Smith would disagree!

I'd agree with you if I thought he walked more so than was pushed. But I suppose it rests on that in a way. For me, McCarthy wanted him gone and called the meeting to make that happen.

We had a chance at that WC. Keane knew it. It sounds, from what I'm reading here, that most posters thought the same. I try to put myself in the shoes of our best player and captain arriving to the farce of Saipan, which was the culmination or at least continuation of years of neglect, mismanagement and incompetence on behalf of the FAI. Would I sacrifice my last (only) chance at a WC to call it all out? Maybe. I'd certainly want to make a point. I think that's how he saw it in the end. And I dont really blame him for that.

But there's layers to it and angles and almost everyone here has a fair enough take even if I come down fairly firmly on Keane's side. I can completely see why you'd be on the other side.
12/05/2022, 4:14 PM
pineapple stu

Quote:

Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

A row and a handshake tho stu?

I think there's a lot underlying that row and handshake though.

I agree there's nuances to the whole thing, but I think Keane throughout his career seems to have held unhelpful grudges, and I think in the end that contributed more to Saipan than whatever McCarthy may have done. Maybe he thought it was for the best - people not pulling what he saw as their weight or what have you.

And I agree the FAI do seem to have been a bit of a shambles.
12/05/2022, 4:21 PM
ontheotherhand

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I think there's a lot underlying that row and handshake though.

I agree there's nuances to the whole thing, but I think Keane throughout his career seems to have held unhelpful grudges, and I think in the end that contributed more to Saipan than whatever McCarthy may have done. Maybe he thought it was for the best - people not pulling what he saw as their weight or what have you.

And I agree the FAI do seem to have been a bit of a shambles.

Yeah all fair. Certainly a man to hold a grudge. Sometimes it probably helped, sometimes it definitely didn't. I managed him just fine in Champo though so.....
12/05/2022, 4:45 PM
SkStu

Quote:

Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

Will Smith would disagree!

Keep Will Smiths name out ya fckin mouth!
12/05/2022, 4:54 PM
tetsujin1979

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diggs246

Question. Was Keane's attack on McCarthy rasist? ( or the like)

It went some like.
"You some how ended up managing my country you English c""t"

According to the quotes here - https://www.theguardian.com/football.../sport.comment - McCarthy's nationality was not mentioned

Quote:

"Mick, you're a liar... you're a ****ing ******. I didn't rate you as a player, I don't rate you as a manager, and I don't rate you as a person. You're a ****ing ****** and you can stick your World Cup up your arse. The only reason I have any dealings with you is that somehow you are the manager of my country! You can stick it up your ********."

That's not to say Keane didn't call him that another time
12/05/2022, 5:06 PM
pineapple stu

The phrase "manager of my country " has a fairly similar connotation I guess
12/05/2022, 5:07 PM
ontheotherhand

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkStu

Keep Will Smiths name out ya fckin mouth!

To be fair, Wills actions were worse than Keane's and nobody sent him home from the Oscars. It's a shame Chris Rock wasn't managing Ireland for the WC in a way. Might have been a better choice for those games against Gibraltar as well.

I'll just grab my coat there.
12/05/2022, 5:08 PM
ontheotherhand

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

The phrase "manager of my country " has a fairly similar connotation I guess

Ah come on. You wouldn't say "manager of the team representing our shared heritage"!
12/05/2022, 5:21 PM
pineapple stu

You could say "somehow you are the manager!" or "somehow you are the Ireland manager!"

The phrase used is very strange and has a clear connotation that Ireland is not McCarthy's country. Would you say to Ogbene that he's done well so far "playing for my country"?
12/05/2022, 5:40 PM
ontheotherhand

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

You could say "somehow you are the manager!" or "somehow you are the Ireland manager!"

The phrase used is very strange and has a clear connotation that Ireland is not McCarthy's country. Would you say to Ogbene that he's done well so far "playing for my country"?

No but I also wouldn't say he's done really well for "my team" because I'm not on it!

I think it's a stretch to look for something in a turn of phrase here unless he emphasized the "my" and waved a proclamation in the air at the same time. If I was at work and had an issue with my manager and I said, "I don't like you but I'll do what you say because you're the manager of my team (or a manager at my company)" it wouldn't be implying that it wasn't also his team or that I had more ownership over it than he or she did.

Replace McCarthy with Kenny and Keane could say the same thing with no problem.
12/05/2022, 5:58 PM
SkStu

Quote:

Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

According to the quotes here - https://www.theguardian.com/football.../sport.comment - McCarthy's nationality was not mentioned

That's not to say Keane didn't call him that another time

If only Stephen Ward's whatsapp account had been around in those days. We'd have had the full, unadulterated scoop within seconds.
12/05/2022, 5:59 PM
pineapple stu

Fairly fundamental difference between "my team" and "my country" though.
12/05/2022, 6:03 PM
Diggs246

Quote:

Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

No but I also wouldn't say he's done really well for "my team" because I'm not on it!

I think it's a stretch to look for something in a turn of phrase here unless he emphasized the "my" and waved a proclamation in the air at the same time. If I was at work and had an issue with my manager and I said, "I don't like you but I'll do what you say because you're the manager of my team (or a manager at my company)" it wouldn't be implying that it wasn't also his team or that I had more ownership over it than he or she did.

Replace McCarthy with Kenny and Keane could say the same thing with no problem.

He is absolutely 100% clearly stating that mick is a different nationality to him.
12/05/2022, 6:32 PM
ontheotherhand

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Fairly fundamental difference between "my team" and "my country" though.

I suppose if you say it in your head with the emphasis on the "my" then you'd have a point.

We went pretty quickly from accusations of overt racism to arguing over semantics though which I think highlights that it wasn't really very clear and certainly shouldn't have been such a big deal when taken in context. Worse is said between teammates, players and managers in the heat of the moment all the time.
12/05/2022, 11:00 PM
Fixer82

Clinton Morrison said he said it.
Niall Quinn said he never questioned McCarthy's nationality.
People remember things differently
Oh to be a fly on the wall
12/05/2022, 11:18 PM
ontheotherhand

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fixer82

Clinton Morrison said he said it.
Niall Quinn said he never questioned McCarthy's nationality.
People remember things differently
Oh to be a fly on the wall

All the flies were in the ointment in Saipan unfortunately...
13/05/2022, 1:07 AM
elatedscum

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

The phrase "manager of my country " has a fairly similar connotation I guess

it does... but i could also credibly imagine Roy saying the same thing to Steve Staunton if Roy's retirement didn't coincide with Stan's appointment

i guess it's a touch of egomania. we may be all from ireland but it's Roy's country more than anyone else's

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